| Author |
 Topic  |
|
rippit
667 Posts |
 Posted - 08/09/2015 : 09:23:41
|
What is the point of a scouting event when pitchers can't throw strikes and kids don't get to play their primary positions? What are the scouts seeing?
Currently at a walk fest. The scouts look bored. I know I'm bored. The ump has even started calling any pitch between the batters box lines strikes.
I guess as long as folks are dumb enough to spend the money, there are organizations out there to take it.
Love,
Grumpy Cat |
|
|
Renegade44
211 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2015 : 21:36:32
|
| Next time strike up a conversation with anybody around for entertainment. Use the word "projectable" in every sentence after the batter ducks. |
 |
|
|
bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2015 : 09:19:14
|
I don't think it has anything to do with the organizations. If the organization put on an event and had "scouts" or recruiters there to see kids play, then they did their job. The issue is parents that still have on rose colored glasses about their kids. Why would a parent bring their kid to an event when they can't throw strikes? Because the parent thinks their kid is better than they really are.
In terms of playing different positions, that's going to happen. Not everyone can play SS. If a team has multiple players that play the same spot, they have to spread the players around. The athletes should still shine, regardless of where they play.
Now, if this organization continues to put on events where good players don't show up to be evaluated, the scouts and recruiters will stop coming and there will be no more showcases. The market will take care of itself. |
|
|
|
CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2015 : 09:53:03
|
You know what it is Rippit, stop pretending you don't. They are all chasing the all mighty radar gun. It's sad that a kid throwing 85mph strikes and averaging 10 strike outs per game will be second best to the kid who didn't throw a single strike but touched 95mph.
Thus is the new reality where it isn't so much talented placement that gets recruited as it is speed. |
|
|
|
DecaturDad
619 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2015 : 10:11:46
|
I think bballman hit it on the head. Too many kids/parents think they are better then they are. Also, there may just have been a shortage of good pitchers at the event. Last year, my son was asked to pitch an inning at a showcase because they had run out of pitchers. He did very well, but they had no way of knowing that before he took the mound. We even did a college prospect camp where my son was hit by a pitch, but told to stay in the box. The coaches wanted to see him hit, not see him take a base.
In the end, all a kid can do is play his best and hope he catches the eye of the recruiter.
|
|
|
|
LvilleYankees
132 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2015 : 10:20:49
|
| Went to one this past weekend and Friday night 60/swing test/BP is where they looked at position players. The weekend games were a bunch of pitchers who couldn't throw strikes. I told my son who was fustrated that they were mostly evaluating pitchers in the games. Make the plays if their hit to you and don't worry about the at bats. Basically go to camps that the colleges your son wants to go to. They will see more of him that way and if he is good they will notice. |
|
|
|
rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2015 : 10:30:54
|
Hey I WISH I'd seen somebody throwing even 80. I truly understand that all the good 2016s are locked up, and maybe at this point the really great 2017s, but OMG. There are players out here who are NOT pitchers and can recognize that fact, but unless they are able to HIT or get HIT to while playing defense, ugh.
Look, I'm simply questioning the format and bballman, yes I agree with you that the scouts will STOP coming to this organizations events with turnout like that. I'm not sure why they bothered to show up for day 3 except to HOPE against hope they'd find a flame thrower.
Okay so let's pretend for one second that there was one. He's going to get 25 emails today...
EDITED!!!!
Okay I think you went to the same thing we did and everybody I talked to there said the same thing. WHERE ARE THE PITCHERS??
Been to a lot of games/showcases/tourneys etc. and I swear on a stack of Bibles that there were empty seats where scouts left their stuff, and a lot of radar guns not being used. Especially yesterday. Kids getting walked and actually looked ticked about it. Batter #5 getting walked and just heading straight to the dugout.
Let me go into a little detail because I really am curious as to what 25+ scouts are looking for at events like this:
Typical, yet modified in a weird way showcase/camp whatever you want to call it. Been to a few - some very well run i.e. Top 96 (see below). This particular one was a typical pro style workout format, yet...with their own twist... which IMHO was a giant waste of time particularly on day 3.
Rather than a full workout plus 1 game for each team of 20+ players, there was a shortened workout then 2 games were spread out over 2 days for each team. The scouts were there over 12 hours each day? Blech. Who has the attention span to do that? What's the point of the 2nd day unless it was simply to look at guys throw their 2 innings - many very badly. They are there to see pitching only on day 2? And maybe the occasional HR (I didn't see any).
Then, rather than shorten up things starting with a 1 strike count and not allowing walks/HBP, each batter got 2 ABs per game and MANY were walked. What does that show the scout? Too many times during game 2 I saw disgusted batters take first on BB or if they were the 5th batter, take ball 4 and just head back to the dugout as each pitcher was throwing to 5 batters. You don't want to swing at junk, but you don't want to waste an AB either. Didn't see many decent hits, but saw a lot of errors. Didn't really get to see situational stuff at all.
So really...I'm curious. If you see a kid during BP who swings the bat pretty well, but then only has the opportunity to look at 4 balls over his head or in the dirt the next 2 days, what do you remember about that player? What do you remember about a player who had ZERO chances at making a play in 8 innings in the field?
At this point, I have to mention that there was not the traditional infield/outfield scoring at each position either. Each kid got ONE ground or fly ball (I think OF got 2 with throws to different spots) and his throw was clocked then for infielders ONE slow roller.
I just don't see how any of this is helpful, but there HAS to be an upside or is everybody just out to make a buck these days? Not only did they charge the obligatory $"couple hundred bucks" for the event, but then had the nerve to charge a $10 gate fee per person to watch a scouting event that you had to drive your own kid 2-6 hours to.
Here is where I'm going to give a shout out to Top 96 because I think they do it right: regular AB, and if you get walked (or HBP), they put a runner on but the batter stays in the box so he actually gets a chance to hit, however each time this happens, he starts with a 1 strike or 2 strike count (if he keeps getting bad pitches). This makes him swing and makes the defense do other things instead of field a ball and throw to first. Went to one earlier this year and everybody got 5 ABs in one game vs 4 spread out over 2 games and 2 days.
I know this is chopped up because I wrote a reply then didn't post it, but now I've copied and pasted it in. |
Edited by - rippit on 08/10/2015 11:08:00 |
|
|
|
rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2015 : 11:26:38
|
It's obvious that I'm not going to do anything today until I get this off my brain. Bballman - I hear you. And parents - WHAT ARE YOU THINKING???? When a kid still looks 11 year old he probably...well I digress. And this past weekend wasn't the only weekend I've seen that situation.
I get that there are a BUNCH of instructors out there blowing smoke up your skirt so you keep bringing your kid to them and they help perpetuate the myth that your kid is college baseball material. I get that there are team owner/organizers out there who keep your kid dreaming the dream while taking THOUSANDS from you all the while telling you your kid he will get a first class education while being one of 80 on some D3 roster somewhere. Yeah I get all that.
What I don't get is WHY THESE SCOUTS EVEN CAME BACK ON DAY 3?? And some were pro scouts.
The watering down of travel baseball has finally reached the point that everybody has their hand out and all these kids think they can play baseball. The speed of the game has gone WAAAAAAAY downhill. Heck my kid is over 6 feet, not skinny but not fat, average speed, good bat and MIGHT be lucky to play D3.
Okay - to the point - DO go to a school's camp if you are interested in that school. DON'T be fooled by emails (you are on 100s of email lists by the time you are a senior) saying they "saw" you at "name any tournament" and are inviting you to their camp because "95% of their roster came from kids who attended one of their camps". THEY JUST WANT YOUR MONEY. (Go if you really want to go to school there.)
Lesson learned this summer - the only advocate for your son is YOU and HIM - HIM first. Any guy who charges exorbitant fees saying he's going to promote your son WON'T. Schools run better camps than organizations. Except for maybe Top 96. We had a great experience with them and they really did know how to run things right and when things didn't exactly go as planned - they were classy about it, owned up to it and gave some freebies to those involved.
Limiting something to 200 players (and still going over) is STILL TOO MANY KIDS. 100 or less. Seriously.
Sending emails to kids in GA about camps being held in August in the middle of the week is a waste of time. We start school TOO EARLY down here.
I'm sure I'll think of more vents as the day goes on, but for now, who else has something they have absolutely tired of during this whole process? |
|
|
|
bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2015 : 11:31:58
|
| Rippit, why don't you share what "showcase" this was? You've piqued my curiosity. And, even though my son will not be attending any of these, maybe it will help to let others know to stay away. Thanks. |
|
|
|
rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2015 : 11:41:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by bballman
Rippit, why don't you share what "showcase" this was? You've piqued my curiosity. And, even though my son will not be attending any of these, maybe it will help to let others know to stay away. Thanks.
OKAY why not. Baseball Scoutz "Ga All Star" games. |
|
|
|
DecaturDad
619 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2015 : 12:53:18
|
quote:
Originally posted by rippit
quote:
Originally posted by bballman
Rippit, why don't you share what "showcase" this was? You've piqued my curiosity. And, even though my son will not be attending any of these, maybe it will help to let others know to stay away. Thanks.
OKAY why not. Baseball Scoutz "Ga All Star" games.
Thanks Rippit. You may have saved some of the rest of us from wasting a weekend. |
|
|
|
bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2015 : 14:09:11
|
| I have heard of them, but don't have any experience with them. I'll tell you this, that is a nice list of schools who attended. I can't speak to all the kids who didn't pitch well, but if anyone at the event stood out, he will do well going to any of the schools on the list. Baseball Scoutz must have some kind of track record to have that quality of schools show up. |
|
|
|
CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2015 : 14:39:58
|
| Wow rippit...I can actually say I am speechless. Feel free to share more about your experience because I think it could really help us locals. |
|
|
|
leftfielddad
16 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2015 : 15:00:42
|
bballman said: Baseball Scoutz must have some kind of track record to have that quality of schools show up.
Speaking from experience, a lot of these scouts (especially colleges)get paid to be there and they really don't care the name of the organization putting on the showcase. These schools may already have what they need and they are just there because they are getting paid. My son has gone to several of these and I learned this information from people who organize these things.
The best thing to do is start your recruiting process early - end of freshman year if possible. Get a video of your kid (either pay someone to do it or do it yourself). Write to the schools your kid is interested in and send the video (if you don't include a video the coach will probably put your email aside). If they are interested in you they will ask you to fill out the school questionnaire and ask you to their camp. If they don't invite you to their camp and you are still interested in that school, go to it and have your kid talk to the coaches to let them know he is interested in the school. Take it from me - there are a lot of work but it is worth it at the end. My son is now getting looked at 5 D1 schools and there were A LOT of work that was done to get there. Be patient and be smart with your money.
|
|
|
|
rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2015 : 16:01:52
|
What leftfielddad said about getting paid to be there...yes. I heard that too. In my opinion that's sneaky and underhanded to make it sound like they made it sound on their website when they are actually paying coaches to be there.
And wouldn't you know, my son already got an email from a D1 school inviting him to spend some money at their camp. He's excited. I'm hesitant thinking they sent the same email 225 times. |
|
|
|
whits23
596 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2015 : 16:44:52
|
Did not have time to read all the stuff posted but a few tidbits.
Name schools attending is a draw BUT most times the person attending from the school is 1. paid 2. not any more than a student volunteer or low assistant. 3. they go in exchange for the mailing list so they can send it to players for camp invite. 4. coaches go to each others camps to pay back going to each others camps.
Very similar to going to showcase events on college campuses thinking coaches are watching. They are renting the field out and agree to show up as part of the deal.
What is even more awakening is when you see recruiters who held your kids future in their hands working at the local bank or applebees as it paid more than recruiting did. |
|
|
|
leftfielddad
16 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2015 : 17:17:38
|
| If you are hesitant to send your son to a camp because the invite may have been a mass mail (e.g. Villanova recently) I would call or write an email to the coach that sent it and ask if they are still looking for kids (in their graduation year) for their desired position. If they respond to you via call or email then it is worth going to. If they do not then I would think twice. The reason is there are some schools that already completed their recruiting for a particular graduation year (e.g. 2016) and they are now looking at 2017 kids and you need to identify which ones they are looking for. |
|
|
|
bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2015 : 17:24:36
|
| Regardless of whether these guys are there because they were paid, if they see someone worthy of their attention, they will jump on it. They may be paid to be there, they may be just a representative of the school, but if they see talent, they will pay attention. More than likely, if they really like you, they will approach you right on the spot. Maybe they will send a follow up email. It is up to the player and their family to discern between actual interest and simply an invite to a camp. But don't fool yourself. If these guys like someone they see, they won't let him slip thru the cracks. |
|
|
|
Renegade44
211 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2015 : 20:33:13
|
Rippit,
Well.....I may be at about the same point as you? Son has started some of these so called showcase events and showcase team tournaments. Nothing big yet. Just testing the landscape and observing.
My observations mirror yours. With the exact question? WTH is going on here and why? I've sat in the stands, observed out of pure boredom the comings, goings, and crowd for hours on end. trying to educate myself. I still have no clue why or how or purpose for 90% of the players I see there.
Speed issues, control issues, size issues, defense?huh?, swing speed issues, contact issues, look great/cant play a lick issues, you name it issues.
It should be easy for a complete player to show well and stand out. But few and far between. And any actionable recruiter (if any ever existed) done fell asleep or checked out in laughter hours ago.
When did I have to leave? Right after the mom started yelling encouragement to little Johnny from behind home plate. Its ok! You almost got that one! Oh bad luck there! Nothing you could do!!! Yeahhh! What a catch! (no a routine can of corn?)
But yes? What the heck is going on?
You run 7.9 sixties, you throw 75 across the field, you hit flops just over infielders, you pitch 77 right down middle, you cant field your position (or any other) with a 70% success rate, etc......
Please, please, please explain the showcase thought to me? Who told this parent or player this was a good idea? Where did the thought it was a good idea come from?
Answers, I need explanations too!
|
|
|
|
bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2015 : 22:25:46
|
I think I explained it. Delusional parents. :)
Showcases can't pre-qualify participants. I think you have a whole bunch of kids out there who have played for dad or played on the 2nd tier circuit of tournaments thru HS and they believe their skills will translate onto the college field. They have no idea...
I don't know if these showcases provide any kind of evaluation, but hopefully they do and hopefully they are honest. I know PG provides a grade and written evaluation, but they are expensive. Personally, I think they are worth doing at least one of them. Although I have seen some kids at PG showcases who really shouldn't be there as well, but, by and large, the kids are decent and the true talent really stands out. |
|
|
|
leftfielddad
16 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2015 : 09:53:50
|
I found this interesting link to website that lists the college showcases/prospect camps. I hope this helps some people.
http://collegebaseballcamps.com/
|
|
|
|
DecaturDad
619 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2015 : 09:54:28
|
I agree with bballman. Although they are expensive, any good high school player should do at least one perfect game showcase. There is one at the end of August at Lake Point. The cost is $650 for the weekend. If nothing else, your son will get a grade from doing that showcase. They grade from zero to 10:
10 -- Potential very high draft pick, Top DI in the nation prospect
9 -- Potential top 10 round pick, Top DI prospect
8 -- Potential mid round pick, definite DI prospect
7 -- Potential low round pick, DI prospect or top level Juco, DII
6 -- Possible DI prospect, definite DII or Juco prospect
5 -- Possible DII prospect or mid range Juco prospect
4 -- Possible low level DII or high level DIII prospect
3 -- Possible DIII or low level Juco prospect
2 -- Possible low level DIII prospect
1 -- No prospect at this time
Sure, this is just one opinion. But if you 2 or 3, be looking at a school that fits. At the same time, if you grade as a 9.5, you should have plenty of options. |
|
|
|
leftfielddad
16 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2015 : 10:20:05
|
DecaturDad, that is great information.
My only warning is this - do not make this your first showcase. If you do really bad your grade will be posted in the Perfect Game website for all to see including scouts. My recommendation is to participate in a smaller showcase and learn what measurements are critical. For example, exit velocity etc. Work on those critical measurements so that when you go to Perfect Game your numbers will look good when they post it for all to see. |
|
|
|
rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2015 : 11:38:32
|
I spewed coffee when Leftfielddad called out Villanova! They obviously emailed every kid who was on a WWBA roster. He got that email on Saturday for a camp that's today IN PENNSYLVANIA. Wow. There's a kid on his summer team who wasn't even at that tournament and laughed at the wording "we saw you in the WWBA...". Kid goes, "I WASN'T EVEN IN TOWN!" lol.
Not like I've looked at every PG rating on every kid, but has anybody here seen anybody rated less than a 7? Maybe seen a 6.5 but I can't remember. I've seen kids that I didn't think to be very special get 7s and 7.5s which according to the list that DDAD just put out makes them all better than D3. It seems like size does matter (in this scenario ;>0 )We haven't done the PG thing because I just didn't want to spend the money and now I'm wondering if that's actually hurting. We have a video we've sent out that has gotten a decent response, but it really is like a full time job to help sort through all this and now that school has started back it's more of a challenge. |
|
|
|
rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2015 : 11:46:21
|
quote:
Originally posted by Renegade44
Rippit,
Well.....I may be at about the same point as you? Son has started some of these so called showcase events and showcase team tournaments. Nothing big yet. Just testing the landscape and observing.
My observations mirror yours. With the exact question? WTH is going on here and why? I've sat in the stands, observed out of pure boredom the comings, goings, and crowd for hours on end. trying to educate myself. I still have no clue why or how or purpose for 90% of the players I see there.
Speed issues, control issues, size issues, defense?huh?, swing speed issues, contact issues, look great/cant play a lick issues, you name it issues.
It should be easy for a complete player to show well and stand out. But few and far between. And any actionable recruiter (if any ever existed) done fell asleep or checked out in laughter hours ago.
When did I have to leave? Right after the mom started yelling encouragement to little Johnny from behind home plate. Its ok! You almost got that one! Oh bad luck there! Nothing you could do!!! Yeahhh! What a catch! (no a routine can of corn?)
But yes? What the heck is going on?
You run 7.9 sixties, you throw 75 across the field, you hit flops just over infielders, you pitch 77 right down middle, you cant field your position (or any other) with a 70% success rate, etc......
Please, please, please explain the showcase thought to me? Who told this parent or player this was a good idea? Where did the thought it was a good idea come from?
Answers, I need explanations too!
I would have been RIGHT BEHIND you if I'd heard mama yelling at little Johnny. Can't stand it either!
We had a situation in game 2 when players stood with the ball in their hand not knowing what to do with it. Or threw it to the wrong base. And the base running (what little there was), just ridiculous.
I don't know what to do anymore either. You get emails that are camp ads. So maybe you go to one or more of these things and then find out all the coaches are paid to be there. I know we've spent some time picking on the kids here, when the intent originally was to find out what scouts are looking for at these events and why they are run so oddly.
I'm just tired of throwing good money after bad I guess. |
|
|
|
CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2015 : 15:30:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by rippit
I spewed coffee when Leftfielddad called out Villanova! They obviously emailed every kid who was on a WWBA roster. He got that email on Saturday for a camp that's today IN PENNSYLVANIA. Wow. There's a kid on his summer team who wasn't even at that tournament and laughed at the wording "we saw you in the WWBA...". Kid goes, "I WASN'T EVEN IN TOWN!" lol.
Not like I've looked at every PG rating on every kid, but has anybody here seen anybody rated less than a 7? Maybe seen a 6.5 but I can't remember. I've seen kids that I didn't think to be very special get 7s and 7.5s which according to the list that DDAD just put out makes them all better than D3. It seems like size does matter (in this scenario ;>0 )We haven't done the PG thing because I just didn't want to spend the money and now I'm wondering if that's actually hurting. We have a video we've sent out that has gotten a decent response, but it really is like a full time job to help sort through all this and now that school has started back it's more of a challenge.
I think DDad was a bit generous with his numbers. I don't think any D1 is going to take less than a 9.0...the fact is they just don't have to. I have never seen a PG showcase grade below 6.5 and that kid did not play in college.
I know one 2016 graduate who went to his first showcase in 9th grade (Dec. 2012), he got a 7.5 score. There he learned what was expected and focused on just those things that would make him shine in THAT showcase, he went back in 10th grade (Dec. 2013) and got a 9.5! Dec 2014 he finally got his PG score of 10 as a Junior...every showcase he went back to improve one piece of the puzzle and the complete puzzle got him the best grade.
Some people don't go the PG showcase route...but I don't understand why if they are willing to go to 3 cheaper showcases surely that could have equaled the one quality PG showcase, money wise, especially since they specifically have showcases called "uncommitted". If my boy continues to improve and if he still wants to play in college that will be the route I plan on taking him. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Someone please explain it to me
