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bballman
1432 Posts |
 Posted - 03/27/2015 : 15:16:09
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quote:
Originally posted by BaseballMom6
bballman I completely agree with this "What if your kid wants to play for Georgia and that's all he wants to do? What if he definitely has the talent to play at Georgia - no question. But, what if your son is a catcher and Georgia already has 3 catchers? He won't be playing at Georgia no matter how good he is. He's going to have to find another team to play at that has a need for an up and coming catcher. See, it's not just about talent, but matching that talent with a team that has a need for your skill set. It's not easy."
I wonder though why you and others don't recognize that this may be the same reason some players don't make/play for their HS teams? The only difference is that in HS you can't just select a different HS that has a need that you can fill. So before putting down kids as not worthy of college because they didn't play for their HS, consider that the reason why may simply be a glut at their strength position that keeps them off the field. It may have nothing to do with how good a player they are if the players ahead of them are also excellent. And yes, several comments in this thread and others imply directly and indirectly that a player that can't make their HS squad must not be any good. I don't buy into that.
Ummmm, I'm not sure why you think I don't realize that. In fact here's part of a post that I did in the "HS teams" thread back on February 13th:
quote:
Originally posted by bballman
Part of it is that coaches are building a team, not just for this year, but for the next four years. In other words, the coach may have things come down to two kids. One is a first baseman and the other is a centerfielder. If the coach has 2 very good sophomore 1st basemen and a junior first baseman - and he only has one legitimate centerfielder and he is a senior, even though the 1st baseman may be marginally better than the centerfielder, the coach is probably going to keep the centerfielder and cut the 1st baseman because he has more need for the centerfielder. Many might say it's politics because the first baseman was obviously better, but there may be more that goes into it than that. It's just the reality of the situation.
The same thing will happen with college recruiting. There my be schools some of your kids are interested in going to - and they are good enough to play there. But if the school is already stacked in your son's position, he's not going to get recruited to go there. He will need to find a team that needs his particular position. The difference is in HS you get cut - looking at colleges, you just don't get recruited.
I think I get it BaseballMom6 |
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Critical Mass
277 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2015 : 09:43:42
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Perfect example shuler.
My kid puts up 4's and i can tell you for a fact that not all scouts or crosscheckers know who he is or have seen him. He doesnt play for the programs mentioned by CaCo and IS on one of the best HS teams in the state...so, the "build it and they will come" philosophy....even with a few draftable kids on the HS team drawing scouts...isn't a panacea.
quote:
Originally posted by hshuler
@bballman - Agreed!
I was at a high school game last year and was chatting with a few scouts who came to see a pitcher and two of them had no idea who the best hitter in the state was. The kid was ranked top three in his class and they had no clue...lol!
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Edited by - Critical Mass on 03/28/2015 11:29:09 |
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BaseballMom6
233 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2015 : 15:40:12
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quote:
Originally posted by bballman
And for the record, I think every kid should play for his HS if at all possible. Not because they want to get recruited from there, but because he wants to play for his school and with his friends. There is something special about it. I also can't help but think that there will be some difficult questions to answer from scouts/recruiters as to why you didn't play on the HS team.
bballman - it is comments like these that make me wonder if you really do get it. I don't think a player should be concerned about explaining why they didn't play for their HS team as there are too many reasons to list as to why that may not occur. |
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hshuler
1074 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2015 : 17:56:16
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| I would imagine that it would be just as difficult for a high school coach to answer questions as to why a kid who signs to play college or professional baseball was not on a their high school roster. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2015 : 19:18:14
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| There's nothing I can do about recruiters asking about how things go in high school. The questions will be asked whether you think they should or not. If you were cut because of the reasons I outlined earlier, nothing else needs to be said. If you decided not to play because you think politics are involved or you didn't like the coach or something along those lines, I would think the college coach may worry about the players attitude and willingness to work with what he's got. The question will be asked no matter what. The response could make or break your options. JMHO. |
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Katya_27
28 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2015 : 21:38:35
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| It's impossible to read that article and not tear up. I'm really happy for his family and wish him the best. I think we all know the sacrifices necessary for something like this to happen. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2015 : 09:18:37
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quote:
Originally posted by BaseballMom6
bballman I completely agree with this "What if your kid wants to play for Georgia and that's all he wants to do? What if he definitely has the talent to play at Georgia - no question. But, what if your son is a catcher and Georgia already has 3 catchers? He won't be playing at Georgia no matter how good he is. He's going to have to find another team to play at that has a need for an up and coming catcher. See, it's not just about talent, but matching that talent with a team that has a need for your skill set. It's not easy."
I wonder though why you and others don't recognize that this may be the same reason some players don't make/play for their HS teams? The only difference is that in HS you can't just select a different HS that has a need that you can fill. So before putting down kids as not worthy of college because they didn't play for their HS, consider that the reason why may simply be a glut at their strength position that keeps them off the field. It may have nothing to do with how good a player they are if the players ahead of them are also excellent. And yes, several comments in this thread and others imply directly and indirectly that a player that can't make their HS squad must not be any good. I don't buy into that.
Sorry baseballmom6...I'm going to have to disagree with your logic. "A glut at their strength position" is an unlikely reason not to make a high school team. There are generally 20+ spots on Varsity, 20+ spots on JV and in a school over flowing with talent you get a Freshman team of 20+ as well....of course a 14 year old may have trouble competing with a 18 year old in strength but that is why JV and Freshman teams were created. They foster the talent that will one day be the Varsity team.
As for the idea of "strength positions"...can you explain that? A 14 year old athlete who plays short stop should be able to play second...a catcher with a decent arm but maybe not a great pop time can be moved to the outfield or perhaps third, an outfielder with a decent arm could be transformed into a pitcher, and a kid who can hit will always be able to find a spot somewhere....so without more to the story I am confused on how a high school wouldn't be able to find a spot for a "good" player. |
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BaseballMom6
233 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2015 : 11:11:49
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CaCO3Girl - Easy - you have made a presumption that all schools host Freshman teams, ours does not. And when 8 catchers come out for the team, there is a glut of talent, if your child, like mine, is a catcher, especially if 2 excellent catchers, are returning. I find it interesting though that you think a player with a strong arm can just be moved to the outfield. Or that a player in their secondary position is going to naturally beat out a player in their primary position.
So when 60+ players tryout for 40 spots, it is not difficult for me to process that quality players will be cut. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2015 : 13:30:05
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Baseballmom6, the subject at hand was players that are likely to play in college not making their high school team would have a lot of explaining to do.
My point is not to criticize any one child it is to point out that in theory College scouting happens for most kids after 10th grade. If a 9th grader doesn't make it he should keep working with his summer team at various positions to make his high school team.
In your case, having a catcher for a son, catchers are arguably in the most athletically demanding position on the field, and therefore are the most athletic kids on the team (possibly being beat out by the short stop on athleticism). I am confused why he thinks he can only be a valuable player in that one position. If he is a fast kid outfield sounds like a great option, if he is a bit on the slower side the reaction time needed for catcher should translate to a great third basemen.
College's are looking for athleticism, there are hundreds of stories of a player being recruited while they played one position only to play a totally different position in college. Same goes for MLB players, there are hundreds of stories of college players being drafted and then popping up as an outfielder or whatever spot the MLB team had open. I would encourage all players serious about playing in college to be practicing at more than one position, even if it's just a different position in high school vs. your summer team. |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2015 : 14:08:49
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quote:
Originally posted by BaseballMom6
CaCO3Girl - Easy - you have made a presumption that all schools host Freshman teams, ours does not. And when 8 catchers come out for the team, there is a glut of talent, if your child, like mine, is a catcher, especially if 2 excellent catchers, are returning. I find it interesting though that you think a player with a strong arm can just be moved to the outfield. Or that a player in their secondary position is going to naturally beat out a player in their primary position.
So when 60+ players tryout for 40 spots, it is not difficult for me to process that quality players will be cut.
Since you've been through the drill, you may already know about alternatives to HS ball. There is a 3+ year running thread in the 15-18 topic about Southern Prospects and some other options. It has bumped back up to the top and is in there now. "HS Alternatives?"
There is also a mention of alternatives in this more recent thread about HS teams.
http://www.nwgabaseball.org/snitz/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=44554 |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2015 : 13:20:38
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I am not saying that those kids who don't make their high school team are without talent. I am saying that if you don't have the talent to make your high school team, over a 4 year period, that you are unlikely to be talented enough to play in college.
That was the discussion....that if you plan on playing in college you had better have a really good answer to tell the recruiter on why you didn't make your High School team...and to tell him there are 20+ people better than me at my high school is probably not going to be an acceptable answer. Just my opinion people, everyone's got one! |
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Diamond_dad
16 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2015 : 23:57:16
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My kid attends a school that's whose baseball team is one of the top ranked teams in the state and the school is full of talent and they had 12 returning seniors on the team and this year as a junior he didn't make the team. He's being actively recruited by several colleges including Div 1 schools. The coaches all asked for his travel ball schedule rather than his high school schedule. As much as I would like for him to be on the High school team, it seems like sometimes it doesn't matter. If he signs with one of the schools, I could really care less if he makes the High School team. It's there loss. Some schools have tons of talent and some don't. All of the surrounding schools in our area are terrible and we've been approached to attend other schools, but the academics at the school outweigh everything else.
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
I am not saying that those kids who don't make their high school team are without talent. I am saying that if you don't have the talent to make your high school team, over a 4 year period, that you are unlikely to be talented enough to play in college.
That was the discussion....that if you plan on playing in college you had better have a really good answer to tell the recruiter on why you didn't make your High School team...and to tell him there are 20+ people better than me at my high school is probably not going to be an acceptable answer. Just my opinion people, everyone's got one!
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2015 : 10:03:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Diamond_dad
My kid attends a school that's whose baseball team is one of the top ranked teams in the state and the school is full of talent and they had 12 returning seniors on the team and this year as a junior he didn't make the team. He's being actively recruited by several colleges including Div 1 schools. The coaches all asked for his travel ball schedule rather than his high school schedule. As much as I would like for him to be on the High school team, it seems like sometimes it doesn't matter. If he signs with one of the schools, I could really care less if he makes the High School team. It's there loss. Some schools have tons of talent and some don't. All of the surrounding schools in our area are terrible and we've been approached to attend other schools, but the academics at the school outweigh everything else.
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
I am not saying that those kids who don't make their high school team are without talent. I am saying that if you don't have the talent to make your high school team, over a 4 year period, that you are unlikely to be talented enough to play in college.
That was the discussion....that if you plan on playing in college you had better have a really good answer to tell the recruiter on why you didn't make your High School team...and to tell him there are 20+ people better than me at my high school is probably not going to be an acceptable answer. Just my opinion people, everyone's got one!
That is great! Congratulations! It also probably happens about as often as the story that started the thread. |
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nastycurve
244 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2015 : 11:00:52
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
I am not saying that those kids who don't make their high school team are without talent. I am saying that if you don't have the talent to make your high school team, over a 4 year period, that you are unlikely to be talented enough to play in college.
That was the discussion....that if you plan on playing in college you had better have a really good answer to tell the recruiter on why you didn't make your High School team...and to tell him there are 20+ people better than me at my high school is probably not going to be an acceptable answer. Just my opinion people, everyone's got one!
Calcium Carbonate, I agree 100%. If you don't have the talent to make the roster of your HS, you are less than likely to make a college roster. You have to have some tool that you can bring to the team, your bat, your speed, leadership, pitching, SOMETHING.
I understand talented kids being ahead of you, that's why they make JV. Whats the excuse when the player is a senior and doesn't make it? "They had a bunch of really talented 11th graders, that's why I got squeezed off..." Weren't you a really talented 11th grader last year? What happened then?
Not saying all cases are the same, nor am I saying that politics don't exist, but I am saying if you can play, flat out play, you will make the team and play. If you are marginal at best, you may not make the team.
Are parents in other sports as delusional about talent as baseball parents? |
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rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2015 : 12:44:26
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Okay I have a question...what happens when a D1 school offers a kid as a sophomore and then the kid just does nothing his junior or senior year in HS? And by nothing, I mean is completely overshadowed by the other talent on his HS team - some who have no such offer in hand?
See it 3-4 times a week. Just saying. |
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bballguy
224 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2015 : 13:11:29
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| It amazes me that some parents don't realize or don't accept that their kid simply isn't good enough to make the team. It's not end of the world!!! Life goes on and it's an opportunity to find new passions. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2015 : 13:28:09
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quote:
Originally posted by nastycurve
Are parents in other sports as delusional about talent as baseball parents?
I don't think the other sports have parents that are as delusional as baseball parents. We drink FAR too much of the kool-aid here in GA!
I have heard of 6 year olds in pitching lessons...9 year olds accepting a Pitcher Only roster spot and everyone with an academy type shirt thinks their kid is going to be the next great thing who will obviously be recruited because they have THAT shirt/name/brand! Here is a clue...with the rare exception each park/academy has one or two REAL teams, the rest of you/us (because yes my kid is at an academy) are fundraisers for those two teams, and that is okay, but don't be delusional about it!
I just don't hear these things about football and basketball...heck I can't name an academy type place for either of those sports! |
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hshuler
1074 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2015 : 17:03:01
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Ohhh, it's an epidemic in all sports. Football only kids train year around and attend 'combines' as early as 6th grade. I heard someone say recently that their kid was rated a top ten corner back in the class of 2020. Really?
Although they won't admit it, many parents view their kids as a lottery ticket. What other explanation would there be for acting so irrationally? |
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Kory
50 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2015 : 19:51:19
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I think that the most disturbing phrase that constantly gets mentioned is "baseball only" or "football only". I'm not sure what scouts you have talked to, but the ones who I know, have all told my son to never quit playing football. That their organization looks for athletes who have a diverse background and who do not focus on a particular sport but concentrate on being an athlete and having a full life, which includes academics and a social life.
Football, in some cases, is worse than baseball. 8th graders are getting offers more regularly now, which is nuts. True, this is really isolated to QB's. But a QB, in the 8th grade, who has demonstrated a natural talent for throwing and can read a cover two, is a valuable asset. Plus most QB's are typically some of the best athletes so I guess I can understand that.
Regardless, I am really happy to read the story that started this thread. It sounds like the young man is a hard worker, and has a good head on his shoulders. That speaks to how he is being raised. We should all be so lucky. I doubt that that young man put his cup on that day thinking 'I hope there is a scout in the crowd.' So Bravo Zulu to him.
For those who have kids who didn't make their HS team, I would say keep working. Even MJ got cut his freshman year. But, please I would caution you from discussing the politics of the team, booster club, or coach with your son or daughter. Put the emphasis on hard work, not excuses. Or, you might end up with a bitter child. That would be a shame.
quote:
Originally posted by hshuler
Ohhh, it's an epidemic in all sports. Football only kids train year around and attend 'combines' as early as 6th grade. I heard someone say recently that their kid was rated a top ten corner back in the class of 2020. Really?
Although they won't admit it, many parents view their kids as a lottery ticket. What other explanation would there be for acting so irrationally?
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Critical Mass
277 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2015 : 08:29:20
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I don't think it's the end of the world to play and rely on travel ball to get you better and seen, then ultimately signed to a college to play ball. In the case of the large turnout at tryouts and a quality player not making the team, travel ball is a fantastic option for him. I'm glad it's this way now....i know many guys who didnt have this option and they didnt make a team or maybe they made the team and didnt get to play and they were good....at that point they didnt have many options. Options are awesome. I hope your son does well and gets that ride to play ball.
My son was a split player as a Frosh...played varsity late in the year but primarily played JV. He dominated the opposing rosters as a rhp but wasnt really given the opp to play varsity as a pitcher. He was a SS and didnt perform well enough there to earn a spot over a Sr that year. He eventually lost a great opp to play ss as a Soph because he wasnt reliable there. He ended up in LF and did a great job. As a Jr he got a chance to start the 1st varsity game of the year and that was it. He locked up the #1 spot and never looked back. He will play acc ball next year, leaves in June for school. I like to tell people this story because he lost his primary position..ss was part of his dna if you ask him and he transitioned to P because his travel ball coach told him...."IF you are going to play college baseball, you will be a rhp." He started working on that position and is still doing that to this day.
Travel ball is great vehicle for kids who want it, bad...lots of other kids just wear the jersey and all the accessories for the cleat chasers. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2015 : 08:46:00
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quote:
Originally posted by hshuler
Although they won't admit it, many parents view their kids as a lottery ticket. What other explanation would there be for acting so irrationally?
THEY ARE DRINKING THE KOOL-AID!!!!! That is the explanation for the irrational behavior. Our society has become pre-programmed to think EVERYONE is special (in their own way) and many parents are equating above normal motor skills at age 6 with natural ability that will result in a 30 million dollar contract at age 25!
My kid thinks for sure he will be a MLB player, and there is a needle in a haystack chance he will be, but in the meantime my only job is to help him find the best possible team/coaching where he can get substantial playing time and where he ENJOYS playing the GAME! Because it is a GAME people. If he announced tomorrow he wanted to take up ballet I would go find a board about that.
I would encourage all parents to let their children's success and failures be THEIR success and failures and not to tie their parental feelings and emotions into how far their children can go in the sport...if little Johnny broke his arm tomorrow in a bad way and could never pitch again would you love him any less? |
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DecaturDad
619 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2015 : 13:54:35
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quote:
Originally posted by rippit
Okay I have a question...what happens when a D1 school offers a kid as a sophomore and then the kid just does nothing his junior or senior year in HS? And by nothing, I mean is completely overshadowed by the other talent on his HS team - some who have no such offer in hand?
See it 3-4 times a week. Just saying.
Realize that as a sophomore, all the kid has is a verbal agreement. If he does not continue to improve, there will not be a scholarship. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2015 : 14:15:47
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quote:
Originally posted by DecaturDad
quote:
Originally posted by rippit
Okay I have a question...what happens when a D1 school offers a kid as a sophomore and then the kid just does nothing his junior or senior year in HS? And by nothing, I mean is completely overshadowed by the other talent on his HS team - some who have no such offer in hand?
See it 3-4 times a week. Just saying.
Realize that as a sophomore, all the kid has is a verbal agreement. If he does not continue to improve, there will not be a scholarship.
Agree! It's like locking in a low interest rate (the school calls dibs on that player), but if you don't qualify for the loan (or the talent level needed to play college ball) then the whole deal falls apart. |
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palm ball
7 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2015 : 10:17:00
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Scouts want to see arm strength and speed with some athleticism Other skills can be taught and refined. You can not develop a 90+ fastball from a 70 MPH fastball, or the ability to shoot bullets across the infield to get a runner by a hair, or be taught to run sub 7 second 60 yd dashes (while speed can be marginally improved, you generally either got it or you dont) Scouts look for god given talents, getting the prospects talents/polished god given gifts, seen is the biggest factor to moving on in the game.
Game performance is watched and evaluated but by no means is it the final decision factor for kids, especially getting to play professionally. Colleges are looking for a little more polish in who they pursue. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2015 : 12:52:12
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quote:
Originally posted by palm ball
Scouts want to see arm strength and speed with some athleticism Other skills can be taught and refined. You can not develop a 90+ fastball from a 70 MPH fastball, or the ability to shoot bullets across the infield to get a runner by a hair, or be taught to run sub 7 second 60 yd dashes (while speed can be marginally improved, you generally either got it or you dont) Scouts look for god given talents, getting the prospects talents/polished god given gifts, seen is the biggest factor to moving on in the game.
Game performance is watched and evaluated but by no means is it the final decision factor for kids, especially getting to play professionally. Colleges are looking for a little more polish in who they pursue.
+1. Agree with this. |
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The next time someone tells you scouts don't...
