| Author |
 Topic  |
|
goyard
217 Posts |
 Posted - 08/01/2008 : 11:08:44
|
| There's a topic I hear more and more about the implimentation of weight training with pre-or-"just turned" teenagers (11-13/14). Not speaking of speed, flexibility or simply cardio & agility but actual weight lifting. Interested to see opinions on what is "TOO EARLY" for this and even negative over positive impact regarding youth baseball? Weights before puberty for some???? Not sure such a good thing?? |
|
|
12uCoach
357 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2008 : 12:18:30
|
| No hair No weights |
 |
|
|
25LOVESTHEGAME
48 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2008 : 13:54:42
|
| My opinion on this at our boys age they need more agility and flexibility training. That will help them when they starting pumpin iron |
|
|
|
greglomax
1031 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2008 : 14:34:05
|
I think there are different types of training that should go on for different kinds of sports. I am just not convinced that weight training, at least not heavy weights, are suitable for baseball. I think things like running, for leg conditioning, crunches, for core strength, and long tossing, to develop arm strength are much more suitable activities. If we were talking about football, where brute strength and mass play a bigger part, I would argue differently. I believe we see a lot more injuries now because of weight lifting than the added benefit for doing it.
Just my thoughts. |
|
|
|
SportsDad
293 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2008 : 15:26:30
|
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think there are different types of training that should go on for different kinds of sports. I am just not convinced that weight training, at least not heavy weights, are suitable for baseball.
Agree, but weight training is valuable for baseball...you just have to get a baseball specific weight training program...and a baseball specific position training...there are weight training techiques that are good for catchers,first baseman,third baseman,that you'd never want a middle infielder or pitcher to do...lot of different arguements on "what age" is it appropriate to start..many different thoughts on that...ie it's OK to let a 10 year old do pushups..but oh my never let him bench press anything...there is a reason every MLB ball club and every College and High School have weight training rooms.. |
|
|
|
Mike Corbin
523 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2008 : 16:08:37
|
I am a BIG believer in lifting. My son has played Varsity for 2 years now. He went form hitting 1 HR as a Sophomore to hitting 13 as a Junior. He worked out(lifted), with a certified trainer, 3 days a week as well as ran 2 days a week. From the time school started to the time he started baseball workouts with the school he had gained 20 lbs of muscle. He gained time in the 60 and had way more confidence as well.
All that being said. I don't think that players should start lifting until they are around 14. But, even then they should be supervised to ensure that they are doing things correctly and that they don't get hurt. They also need to consult a trainer, who is baseball knowledgable, as to what work outs are more benificial and which ones are more harmful on certain areas and joints.
Until then they can do as many "body weight" things as they want (push ups, sit ups, pull ups, ect...).I always had a competition with my players when they were younger. I would offer a big surprise to the player that could improve on how many pushups they could do from the begining of the season to the end.
In my opinion the more they do of those the better. |
|
|
|
Pronate
156 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 16:26:16
|
Goyard:
This is another topic where you have to understand the biological age of children. While we are always happy to hear about increased home runs it is unclear if this increased strength is due to the natural growth of youngsters or weight training. I suggest it is the former. It brings to mind a young man who I thought would be one of the better hitters in the area when he was a sophomore in high school. He got on some kind of weight program and turned into a mediocre (to be kind) hitter. So I would love to see what kind of weight training these children are doing.
To answer your question about 11-14 year old weight training. It is good for youngsters to have some stress on their growing bones, ligaments, tendons and muscles. The question is how much and what kind of stress.
As for the kind of stress, when it comes to weight training it must be very specific to the activity you hope to improve. At your age group, two words you will start hearing alot are pronation and specificity. These are both critical concepts to understand. In regard to baseball weight training activities I suggest training that is highly specific to whatever he wants to accomplish in baseball. The problem then becomes what constitutes specificity. For example the latest urban myth is "trainers" telling youngsters to do long toss to improve themselves as pitchers. While long tossing does not constitute weight training, you should be very careful about following a weight regime from anyone suggesting long tossing for pitchers. These guys talk a good game but they are lacking in understaning the concept of specificity of exercise.
I never get a straight answer when I ask what type of lifting these children are doing but under no circumstances should they do any squatting and under no circumstances should the elbows go below the acromial line of the shoulders bearing weight (bench pressing, for example).
As for how much stress at this age group: at the age group you cite I recommend, during this offseason, 60 straight days of iron ball and wrist weight training performed in as precise a way as possible to replicate how a youngster should throw a baseball. This helps the throwing arm prepare for the stress of throwing.
For baseball hitting, I recommend time not weights as an overload. Baseball hitting is more about skill so I suggest you place your efforts there.
Keep in mind that, at its core, baseball is about skill. At the and of the day you get better at throwing by throwing, you get better at hitting by hitting, etc.
e
|
Edited by - Pronate on 08/03/2008 16:49:49 |
|
|
|
goyard
217 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 17:20:28
|
| Good input and thank you. Pronate, when you mentioned absolutely no squatting I am thinking you are meaning weighted squats, correct? My son happens to catch and there are quite a few squats involved there. In down time and off season (at 12/13U) I would think it also be good to do unweighted squats for reps - thoughts? |
|
|
|
Baseball Rocks
14 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 19:03:24
|
Pronate said, "As for how much stress at this age group: at the age group you cite I recommend, during this offseason, 60 straight days of iron ball and wrist weight training performed in as precise a way as possible to replicate how a youngster should throw a baseball. This helps the throwing arm prepare for the stress of throwing."
Pronate, where can we get information on the iron ball & wrist weight training program? I would like to read up on this program, and have my 12 year old son start doing it. Where can I buy these things?
|
|
|
|
greglomax
1031 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 19:48:41
|
Pronate,
I liked you response except for the long tossing. I think long tossing does help develop arm strength. Now if you are specifically talking about it for pitchers, long tossing for a pitcher is any distance further than the mound to plate distance.
I believe that since youth players are still playing several different positions, long tossing helps to develop the arm strength to easily make throws from different positions. There are too many times where a player has to move from infield to OF and needs to have the arm strength to make a good fundamental throw from that position. Not to mention as the field gets bigger (moving from 70' bases, to 80', to 90') the throw from the left side of the diamond gets longer as well. |
|
|
|
SportsDad
293 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 20:08:53
|
"At the and of the day you get better at throwing by throwing, you get better at hitting by hitting, etc."
Well actually, you get better by throwing correctly and you get better by hitting correctly...and the opinions on how one does that, are as diversified as they can be.. hitting a ball hard/far requires bat speed...opinions on how one increases bat speed are varied...a lot of people feel that throwing a baseball hard requires shoulder strength and how one increases shoulder strength are varied... You can have the "prettiest" swing, but with no bat speed you're not going to be succesful, just like you can have "perfect pitching form" (whatever you believe that is) and if you can't break a pane of glass with your fastball, you're not going to be successful...strength is an important factor in baseball...how you achieve it is up to you...most comments I've seen on weight/strength training, have to do with "injury avoidance" and not with questioning the benefits of it..
For the overwhelming majority of players out there...the older you get, the more important strentgh becomes...
|
|
|
|
Pronate
156 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2008 : 00:24:04
|
Goyard:
While my main interest is pitchers, there's noone more special than a youth baseball catcher!
Yes, I did mean weighted squats but I would not have him do any squatting at all during the off season. The 4 Quadriceps muscles attach to the tibial tuberosity growth plate below the knee. His growth plate is wide open so we don't want too much stress on it. I'll assume he wears knee savers as he should. If he plays on a travel team make sure they have other catchers. I know kids like to play rather than sit so I recommend that catchers play some field positions to give their knees a break.
At his age, I would see if he likes activities like football, basketball, swimming in the off-season.
Have fun.
e |
|
|
|
Pronate
156 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2008 : 01:12:38
|
Greg:
You are quite correct IMO. If a child plays the outfield then he needs to throw outfield distances. The problem is the invincibility of youth, which I prefer not to discourage, Boys being boys they inevitably try to air it out. They think they are getting power from reverse rotating and bringing the baseball way behing their backs. This puts the subscapular attachment to their rotator cuff at risk (front of their shoulder).
Now, if you train them to crow hop and forwardly rotae over their front foot when long tossing, you are going a long way toward pitching in the style I prefer.
e |
|
|
|
goyard
217 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2008 : 09:34:50
|
| Thanks Pronate and I appreciate the advise. He actually enjoys playing baseball through the fall. May put more emphasis in the fall of him seeing the field from a different angle :) |
|
|
|
jrog76
80 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2008 : 12:35:30
|
Has anyone come across a pitcher-specific exercise regimen?
Also, long toss for pitchers seems counterintuitive to me. (Hey, if Mike Marshall and Dick Mills agree on something ... )
|
|
|
|
longhornpapa
27 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2008 : 13:48:47
|
try wrestling instead. many high schools have jr programs that will keep these kids in great shape for spring and it will do wonders for self-confidence and endurance.
|
|
|
|
greglomax
1031 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2008 : 13:56:12
|
Pronate,
I agree on the correct nature of throwing long toss. Nothing irritates me more than watching kids warm up and long toss by just getting out there and slinging the ball around. There has to be an objective, and the players have to understand what they are trying to accomplish. |
|
|
|
goyard
217 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2008 : 09:17:01
|
| Anyone have input either for or against weighted ball workouts? |
|
|
|
greglomax
1031 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2008 : 14:54:22
|
I don't like them. I think the additional weight causes a player to throw with a different motion and try to compensate with other muscles to make up for the weight difference. I thought they were great until I tried them and I could not keep my same motion, especially trying to keep the arm slot more over the top.
Just my observation. I would also like to hear from others that have used them. |
|
|
|
goyard
217 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2008 : 17:03:42
|
| not sure if you followed the manufacturer's instructions Greg or bucked the system a little bit but those bad boys are fun to catch aren't they ;)!! In all seriousness, I noticed having to compensate as well and noticed it with my son also. |
Edited by - goyard on 08/05/2008 17:12:13 |
|
|
|
greglomax
1031 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2008 : 20:06:09
|
Apparently I did not read the right instructions.  |
|
|
|
Pronate
156 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2008 : 01:45:07
|
Greg/Goyard:
This is another case where you have to know the age we are dealing with and the weight of the balls. I am going to assume we are talking the 12-13 age range and weighted baseballs in the 7-9 oz range.
I do recommend that children in this age group train with 4 pound iron balls for 60 days in the off season but first, let's discuss why I oppose weighted balls that most children use.
The problem with these slightly heavier balls is that they generally are not heavy enough to stop improper force application techniques. If you have excess reverse rotation, forearm flyout and/or a bounce in your thowing motion the light weight of these balls will only hasten problems.
The weighted baseballs that most use will not significantly increase bone density or increase muscle size. Therefore you get no additional long term release velocity from them.
It is counterintuitive but a 4 pound iron ball will prevent a youngster from applying force incorrectly. So the primary reason for a 4 pound ball is to straighten out the youngsters driveline. It is impossible for the arm to fly out or bounce.
We are born with the fast twitch muscles we are born with. No amount of anything wil change that. So the key to increased release velocity is applying force in straight lines over longer distances with stonger bones, muscles, tendons and ligaments. So the 4 pound ball helps apply force correctly and helps strengthen the arm at the same time.
My 9 year old nephew is currently doing this program and my brother let him unload with a regular baseball last night (one simply can't resist). He told me my nephew was clearly faster. While it is nice to think it is the throwing the wrist weights and iron balls (in his case it's a 2 lb baseball) it is, in reality, his improvement in his technique that has increased his velocity. At least at this point.
Teach em the skills.
e |
Edited by - Pronate on 08/06/2008 08:44:39 |
|
|
|
goyard
217 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2008 : 09:26:44
|
"I do recommend that children in this age group train with 4 pound iron balls for 60 days in the off season but first, let's discuss why I oppose weighted balls that most children use."
Pronate, sounds interesting and potentially effective - at risk of sounding clueless ...my son is 12 as of this past February ... If a 4 lb weighted ball would seemingly be right for his age and size - how or where do we learn more about how to properly incorporate this into his workout properly?
|
|
|
|
greglomax
1031 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2008 : 17:27:02
|
| Another question is "Where do you find 4 pound balls?" |
|
|
|
Pronate
156 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2008 : 18:44:44
|
Greg:
I like these people. I believe they have 3 and 4 lb shots
Assuming your son is 13 I reco the 4 lb. Fot average size twelve year olds I reco the 3 lb.
1(800)556-7464 or email mfathletic@mfathletic.com
9-11 year olds should use 2 pounds which is an actual baseball that Frozen Ropes sells for about $20.
16 year olds should use 6 lb shots
When I give a seminar I start by having the participants try to pitch 30 lb wrist weights and 12 lb iron balls. You can be King Kong but unless you've trained specifically for baseball throwing you won't be able to do it. Obviously I am talking adults here but I think you'd agree if you can throw a twelve pound iron ball as hard as you can 72 times you could throw a 5 oz baseball 100 times a couple of times a week without any issues. The human arm is perfectly constructed for baseball throwing. But it does require alot of work if you want to run with the big dogs.
e
|
|
|
|
ilovebaseball111
5 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2008 : 22:12:53
|
| Call any physical therapists' office. They use the weighted balls in arm strengthening execises. They should be able to tell you where you can purchase one of these training tools. BTW they come in all different weights...I have seen 2 lb, 4 lb, 6 lb, and 8 lb. 4 lb is recommended for 12/13. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Weight Training and Youth baseball
