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momof8
2 Posts |
 Posted - 10/29/2013 : 17:07:52
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| Is it normal for other coaches to scout a team in a tournament then attempt to steal players from that team? We've never had it happen on our team until now. Just curious if that's normal or we've just been lucky thus far? |
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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2013 : 18:27:05
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| Define Steal. Did the other Coach come in while you were not looking and whisk the player away or did they merely provide another option for your player and family. I would say that a player switching teams is quite common and even routine and happens quite frequently. I personally don't think that it is possible to steal a player from another team. It comes down to a matter of choice and depends on where the player and the player's parents feel most comfortable playing. But if you decide to steal one I would think that the scouting thing would be very useful in getting the right player. |
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momof8
2 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2013 : 19:43:46
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| I understand that. I guess I was a little taken aback by the way it was done. They came to me as a parent without talking to his coaches. If I wasn't happy on our team, I would have looked for another one own my own. Basically, I didn't know if that's normal. It sounds like that is the norm and that's fine. I'm OK with that. I can simply say no. Thanks for your input. |
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SSBuckeye
575 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2013 : 22:38:48
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| It is definitely NOT normal, and if it happens without being prompted by a family, then it is like cheating to me. Will simply have to disagree with papa. Not sure what is wrong with our country these days. Seems more and more people are simply out for themselves, no matter how it affects others. When I offered a player, it was for a year. Absent some type of extenuating circumstance, I expected all families to honor that commitment, as would I. I realize not everyone works that way, so I'm sure there are exceptions out there, but if I was the coach of that team, I would be PO'd. Thankfully, I don't have to worry about such things any more. |
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DecaturDad
619 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2013 : 08:00:46
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It happens all the time. I have not gone a single season without at least one coach asking. Most are polite and discrete. Since we have never entertained the idea of leaving any team mid season, these are usually short conversations away from the teams after a game. I am not saying it is right, but it definitely happens.
I had one coach come up to me while my son was pitching a game and start explaining to to me why my son needed to play for his team. Even if we had been looking, that was not the time or the place for the discussion. (We went on to beat that same team later in the tournament:-)
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AA17Dad
211 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2013 : 09:03:54
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| It's normal.....happens all the time. |
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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2013 : 10:25:25
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| It's ok for SSBuckeye to disagree. Momof8 didn't say cheat she said steal. The point that I was making is that it is not stealing if the player being stolen is in agreement with leaving. No Team or Coach owns these kids and switching teams is very common and generally no big deal either way. The Team my younger grandson's play for just got accused to stealing away a player but according to the player's parent he was not committed to any team and was only playing with the other team to determine if it was a good fit for their son. When the parents and player were invited to one of our practices they decided our team was a better fit for their son and chose our team. To me it was a process where the parents looked at several options and chose the best option for them and their son. To the Coach that didn't get the player it was stealing. Again, my point is that these kids at 9-12 do not sign contracts but I do strongly believe that they should be taught to honor their commitments and would not recommend pursuing a player that has made that type commitment but to pursue a gifted kid that has not committed yet but is looking to better himself should be ok. I agree with SSBuckeye that once commitment is made it should be honored. Just wanted to clear my position up on this one. All of us know that this is pretty meaty topic and as they get older it gets worse. |
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SMASH
253 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2013 : 12:49:59
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| Have to agree with Buckeye on this one. This happens all the time and its wrong. There is a time and place for everything.. not mid-season, during a game or in the parking lot after the game. Coaches should respect other coaches by reaching out to the desired player during the off season. I had an experience with one coach/team that went as far as telling the parents of my best player that his pitching mechanics were poor and they will lead to arm injuries... I guess you would call this a scare tactic. The player stayed with us and later shut this team down on the mound... karma! |
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SSBuckeye
575 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2013 : 15:24:36
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| I respect both DD & baseballpapa's opinions on this board. But DD's son and papa's grandson are the absolute elite of the elite of their age groups, so I would expect they would be exposed to this more frequently than even the very good players. For mainstream travel ball, I simply have not seen this happen. I coached for four years and around 240 games, and I never had a coach that I was aware of try to steal our players at a game. Maybe I am just not observant. That is my frame of reference. We weren't an elite team, but we were pretty good. I do agree that the "national" level teams and "can't miss" players are probably exposed to this more frequently. But I still think it's wrong unless the players reach out proactively to a team. My $0.02. |
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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2013 : 18:40:28
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| Great topic and good discussion. One thing that I have noticed in my journey through this travel baseball jungle is that change is inevitable. Roster's change from year to year and SMASH makes a good point as to the timing of when to ask a kid to play and that time is not during the middle of the season or even during a game. This is Fall and many kids are playing for teams but have not committed for the upcoming spring season. I see no harm or foul in offering that uncommitted player another option for him and his family to consider. Just Remember that Papa said that the jungle is filled with Lions, and Tigers, and Bears, OH MY! |
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PowerOfDixieland
16 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2013 : 21:26:22
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| Just because it's common doesn't mean it's right. Not illegal (stealing), but it sure ain't right. And here's a thought for you, if they've got holes to fill, why is that? I remember a particular team out of Gwinnett that was constantly posting a help wanted add on this board. We played 'em once and got run out of the park, so they had plenty of talent. The problem with their approach was that they never stopped running and every time we saw them during that tournament they had three kids on their bench, each one icing leg injuries. If they're constantly looking for players, there's a reason. |
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seminole tony
147 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2013 : 22:27:18
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It's not the "lions, tigers and bears". It's the wicked witch of the East(Cobb)we have to watch for.
The kids and parents have the option to play anywhere the child feels the most comfortable at. That is barring he has not committed to a team. I have no problem fielding calls from coaches trying to sell their program to me. Just like buying a car...research them all and make the best decision for me and my family members. As they get older it becomes "who has the most and best college contacts", along with a quality program.
I do like the idea of some programs going out every year and trying to organize the best talent on a team. Starting from almost scratch and rebuilding. Contacting parents like momof8. Really tough though. With great talent it sometimes comes with big EGO's(kids and parents).
Just think what the Atlanta area could do if we had two thirds less teams.
Fielding an "All State Select Team" in each age bracket.
Going into a new topic...Sorry
Just be proud that the childs talent has been noticed and wanted somewhere. Take it as a compliment, smile and say thanks but no thanks if its not for you. |
Edited by - seminole tony on 10/30/2013 23:08:44 |
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jacjacatk
154 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2013 : 00:37:47
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quote:
Originally posted by seminole tony
Just think what the Atlanta area could do if we had two thirds less teams.
Fielding an "All State Select Team" in each age bracket.
Going into a new topic...Sorry
Yeah, if we just told all those kids who aren't in the top third to go find something else to do, that would be great. Clearly, baseball around here would be so much better if there was only one team in each bracket. Heck, you wouldn't even need to play games, you could just have tryouts, pick the team, and call it a season. |
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seminole tony
147 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2013 : 21:13:46
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WHAT??? Hope thats just a tongue in cheek response.
Why break age brackets out in Majors, AAA, AA. Let them all just jump in the pool against the Astro's, RoadRunners, 6 4 3, Team Elites, Team Georgias and then go home crying that it wasn't fair.
Topic started about trying to steal players. Just voiced my opinion that because the talent pool has been watered down, coaches do go in search of better players. Not saying kids shouldn't play ball. BUT, why field a less then mediocre team that has no place in tournament ball just to say "they play travel ball"? Thats what rec ball is for. Learn, practice, become more fundamentally sound and try out for a travel team.
Back when I was a young caveman ball player, when we could chase the dinosaurs off the field, we only fielded a specific age group teams. Not Majors, not AAA, not AA. Why do it now?
I'll tell you. Some parents have the money and some coaches have the ego to do it. "We're a travel team but not a very good one so let us play other not so good teams".
1. Great athletes, unmatched work ethic, fundementally sound
2. Good athlete, average work ethic, good skill set
3. Ordinary child that likes baseball, basic skills
4. Ordinary child that his parent want him to play, basic skills or less
This is how I break down Major, AAA, AA, A ball players.
These kids can and do move up and down this list.
Coaches from 6 years and up want the best team in their age bracket. Some of these coaches are better salesmen and can lock down a player for a year or two but good baseball parents can see the other teams and have the right to go else where if it means better training, atmosphere and coaching.
I'll use an example from right here in the ATL. East Cobb was and still is the hot spot to play ball. Then comes all the other area programs starting up. Where do you think some of these players came from? They were approached by coaches, parents and classmates saying come play in ****** we will do this and that. Thats how sports work. ECB is doing this also in reverse. Parents have the option to go to the place thats the best fit for their son and their family.
My personal comment on watered down teams is just that... MY OPINION. This is about the only place that you'll ever hear me state it because If I say it at the ball park I'd be politically incorrect and hurt some feelings. Hell, there's kids on my sons showcase team that shouldn't be there. Money fixes everything.
Go where you want, when you want. Take any approach from coaches as a compliment.
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Edited by - seminole tony on 10/31/2013 22:09:50 |
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jacjacatk
154 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2013 : 00:33:34
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quote:
Originally posted by seminole tony
Just think what the Atlanta area could do if we had two thirds less teams.
This is what you said. That baseball here would be better if we didn't have to deal with 2/3 of the players.
You know why there are 50 rounds in the MLB draft? So the superstars have someone to play with.
I guarantee you there are players on the teams you listed who wouldn't be there had those bottom 2/3 teams not been around for them to play with in previous years. |
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jmac83
46 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2013 : 08:12:28
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| To me, it's getting off topic to focus on the discussion on whether families are entitled to search out the best baseball situation for their sons. Of course they are. The original issue raised was whether it's proper and ethical for a coach to actively recruit players from another team. It's definitely improper and sets a bad example for kids and parents during a season, in my opinion; there's enough constant reshuffling of rosters during the off season that I'm not as opposed to the approach then. |
Edited by - jmac83 on 11/01/2013 08:35:52 |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2013 : 08:50:34
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Every man/woman for himself/herself. It's like the Wild, Wild West.
Coach is gunning for the 9U World Championship you know.... |
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ABC_Baseball
90 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2013 : 09:44:23
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I think players have every right to go where they want to as long as they have not committed to a team. We had players say yes, we are with you, then decided to go elsewhere. Technically money had not been paid, but why say "yes" we are with you then continue to look around? I know everybody wants to be on a winning team. My kid spent one summer on a very bad team b/c it was his only option due to Dizzy Dean rules. He then got on a travel team that ended up being a AA team and losing way more than we won. I would not go actively looking to move teams during the season once I've said i'm going with a team. I think its fine to try and find a better landing spot for the next season, but I would never bail on a team.
I do agree that there are a lot of teams. I think there are too many. I will not say we need to dump 2/3 of them but there would be stronger teams if the pool was not as watered down. I'm not a big ego guy... My kid is talented in my opinion. I know his coach thinks so and I've been told that other coaches have commented on his game. That being said, I'm not out there shopping my kid around trying to get him on one of the top 5 teams in his age group. I really like his coach and the families on the team. The coach took steps to improve the talent on our team and I really think it will pay off this year.
If we didn't have all these teams, I think really good players would be left out. All the time we see park All-Star teams converted to travel teams will little to no changes to the roster. |
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aSouthPaw
23 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2013 : 09:55:25
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| Getting back to the original question, I would say it all depends on the organization and team you play for. If your team is recruiting kids from other teams during the season, then I would say you have the right to do the same. However, if you team commits to the players they selected during tryouts and does not add players except for a replacement due to injury, move, etc. then you should remain committed to the team. When you committed, the team passed up on another player that likely paid to tryout for the organization. Moving to greener pastures is not a valid reason under this circumstance. Of course, there will always be extenuating circumstances such as if a coach is verbally abusive, player is benched indefinitely, etc. My 11YO plays in an organization that would never recruit other players so we will remain committed to that team. At the season's end, everyone is a free agent and it is appropriate to move anywhere you want at that point in time. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2013 : 10:18:43
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quote:
Originally posted by jmac83
The original issue raised was whether it's proper and ethical for a coach to actively recruit players from another team. It's definitely improper and sets a bad example for kids and parents during a season, in my opinion; there's enough constant reshuffling of rosters during the off season that I'm not as opposed to the approach then.
Of course we all know that coaches are always looking to improve their team. I also think once a player commits to a team for the season, he should not leave. However, who's to say the coaches recruiting during the season aren't looking to pick that player up for next season as opposed to for right now. I think it is up to the family to let a coach know that they are with this current team until the end of the season, but they would be happy to consider the new team for next year. Maybe even go play with that team in an event when their team is off, just to get a feel for how that new team is run.
My son never left a team for "greener pastures". But I know that there are times a player progresses faster than the talent level of the team he is on. Or situations where the player is just not happy with the team he is on for whatever reason. I think it's ok to know that there are other options out there and other teams that may want you. In the college recruiting world, there is a general theme of "go where you are wanted". If a coach wants to let a kid know they are wanted, that's ok. Just don't bail on your current team in the middle of the season.
Coaches of current team - be the kind of coach that players don't want to leave. Be the best coach you can be. That includes working with the parents, providing a high level of skills development, playing good competition. Also realize that if you have a AA team and your best player is a Major level kid, you probably won't have him long. It's really not fair to that kid.
Unfortunately, there are so many choices out there, kids switching teams is a reality of the game. Especially here in metro Atlanta. Some areas of the country don't have this problem because there just aren't the number of choices as there are here. |
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jacjacatk
154 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2013 : 10:31:34
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I don't understand why so many people seem to think that the baseball would be better with fewer teams. How many teams in Georgia could compete with the EC Astros in 1985? How many teams can do it today?
Competition makes everyone better, regardless of the level. The bigger the pool of players, including those who are currently less talented than their peers, the bigger the pool of well-trained players there is to choose from for next year, and the year after, and the more chances those lesser players have to catch up and move up the ladder. Even bad travel teams have their place in this ecosystem, as a bridge from the often relatively worse rec organizations.
Artificially limiting the player pool in baseball is a recipe for making better lacrosse teams, not better baseball. |
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SSBuckeye
575 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2013 : 12:46:21
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jacjac is spot on. The enemy of good baseball is not too many teams. It's lacrosse. Other sports, too. Reduce the teams, and the lacrosse ranks will swell. Not what any on this board want, I imagine. Lacrosse is a great sport, by the way, but there is absolutely no harm having as many travel teams as can be formed so long as there are differing levels of play. I can assure you that just about every AA team out there has a future major-level player on it, and that kid will eventually move up the ranks. What's not to like about that?
If I can make a generalization, in my experience, most people who make the travel is watered argument have an elite son or are simply mad that their neighbor's AA son down the road can tell people he plays travel ball. It used to be an exclusive club, and some folks would like it to go back that way. Not exactly a strong basis for making that point, in my opinion. |
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LilBigTown
115 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2013 : 17:34:47
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| I guess if you call it stealing then Red Sox, Yankees, or Detroit are going to steal Brian Mccan for about 15 million a year! Parents please this is competitive travel baseball. I don't know about anyone else but I'm really tired of Americas new sense of entitlement where so many feel like everything is not fair. News Flash... LIFE IS Not FAIR it's Life some have other options an some do not. " Sports are the one of the only pure things left in this world for at the end of the game there will always be a winner an a loser. The outcome is not affected by race, religion, or social status ." Doctor J. I sure glad that the Braves stole Upton, Johnson, an Gattis this year ! Oh an if you want to play on a league where you can't steal players a great recreation program awaits. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2013 : 23:57:16
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quote:
Originally posted by LilBigTown
I guess if you call it stealing then Red Sox, Yankees, or Detroit are going to steal Brian Mccan for about 15 million a year! Parents please this is competitive travel baseball. I don't know about anyone else but I'm really tired of Americas new sense of entitlement where so many feel like everything is not fair. News Flash... LIFE IS Not FAIR it's Life some have other options an some do not. " Sports are the one of the only pure things left in this world for at the end of the game there will always be a winner an a loser. The outcome is not affected by race, religion, or social status ." Doctor J. I sure glad that the Braves stole Upton, Johnson, an Gattis this year ! Oh an if you want to play on a league where you can't steal players a great recreation program awaits.
Your comparison is so far off base it's not even reasonable. Free agency isn't "stealing" in the sense that the OP is suggesting. Even in the professional ranks, there are rules around when and how players can be approached by other teams. This is EXACTLY the OP's point. You don't see the Yankees approaching McCann during a game in June about leaving the Braves that weekend to come play for the Yankees the next weekend. Clearly there are contracts in place that prevent this. There are no contracts in the amateur ranks, so coaches try and take players from other teams mid season. Not after a player has honored his commitment and played out the current season with his team.
I haven't heard anyone complain about players changing teams AFTER their season is complete. Likewise, a coach is under no obligation to invite a player back the following season.
Your analogy isn't even close. |
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sailor
18 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2013 : 07:09:46
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| I don't think it's possible for a team to "steal" a player. Ultimately the decision to play for a different team is up to the player, not the team. They can offer him a position, but they certainly can't "steal" him against his will. I do believe that a player leaving a team he's committed to in the middle of a season to play somewhere else is a dishonorable thing to do unless there is something really wrong on the team he is leaving. Simply wanting to play somewhere else wouldn't be a good enough reason for me. My kids have been involved with sports since they were very young, and our rule has always been that they must finish what they start. Abandoning your teammates is not an acceptable thing to do. I've seen players leave teams before the end of a season with the result being that the team didn't have enough players to continue, ending the season early for everyone. The parents who permitted their kids to do this should be ashamed of themselves for the example they set. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2013 : 17:48:32
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quote:
Originally posted by sailor
I do believe that a player leaving a team he's committed to in the middle of a season to play somewhere else is a dishonorable thing to do unless there is something really wrong on the team he is leaving.
I agree with your comment, but I also believe that it's EQUALLY dishonorable for coaches to approach other players who are known to be committed to a team to try and entice them to break that commitment to play on that coach's team. |
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Scouting and stealing players
