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Bigwhitevan
67 Posts |
 Posted - 07/25/2013 : 12:58:14
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First to OP. It IS what it is because of demand.
You don't want to pay high fees?
Go make your own team. Then you add up price and leg work for uniform design and pickout and pickup, secure field space rental or limited access because of rec programs, see if you can pay tournament fees to the big tournaments that are always going up, then secure some type of cage work with more money. Then see how that compares to sitting back and watching your kid play for a fee. It goes back to convenience. Why buy a grill, charcoal, meat, seasoning, condiments, fixings and then clean up everything?? You can just go to a restaurant and order one. Yeah it costs lots more but it's worth it to some. Some like it better making it themselves. Same with baseball. Some it is more convenient to pay a set fee and watch. And the price of this convenience will be ever increasing as the demand increases. As it does every year. And the most successful teams/organizations will usually have the highest prices. Not always but usually at top. Whether they have a ex pro, dad, college star, high school coach, or a football coach in the head coach role.
Next, ECB has lots of teams in your opinion. But year after year they compete in tournaments with the best in the country at all ages and they are mostly above .500. This MAKES them a major team. Could they put a dominant team together and never lose??? Maybe. But some people don't get along or want this or want that and it is hard to put the best kid avIlable at every position on one team and everything go smoothly. So they make more teams. And not a far difference sometimes between major and AAA.
As far as keeping a funding parent?? That is more likely on a team NOT charging high fees. A coach would be a fool to turn away free money in exchange for improving a player that is currently sub par. But if the fees are high and lots of kids tryout, money is usually not the reason a coach keeps a sub par player. Not that it doesnt happen on high priced teams, but it is more likely on a lower priced team. They simply need the money. And can you blame them???
You can make a team on a shoe string budget, find some friends to play and have a good team. Compete against the major teams. I dont think you can win on a consitant basis. But eventually parents want something nicer as a uniform. They want better players to join to make the teams better. And the price goes up. And the lower level teams know that once a kid becomes one of the best kids on the team. That family is looking to place the kid somewhere he can compete against better players, more consistantly, to keep improving. And so the cycle continues.............
(Stepping off the soap box) |
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743
215 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2013 : 14:44:17
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| Great Post!BWV I think you hit all the key points! |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2013 : 14:57:05
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Find a team that fits your needs and your budget. There are all kinds of teams with all kinds of fees out there. You may have to drive a little more, or play some tournaments you may not want to play in or not have the slickest uniforms out there, but everyone should be able to find something that fits.
Just keep in mind, for the most part, just like anything else in life, you usually get what you pay for. The higher priced teams will probably offer more, whether it be in terms of reputation, recruiting contacts, quality of coaches, quality of facilities, types of tournaments entered, etc. You may have to sacrifice some when you pay less. And this is a general rule. Not every high priced team gives what you pay for and some low price teams will give you way more than expected. Do your homework, ask around and find out the experience of others.
You also need to assess your player's goals. Does he want to play beyond HS? If not, don't pay for the big name teams with lots of exposure. If your son just wants to play HS ball and be a regular college student after that (and there is nothing wrong with that), just get him someplace to play that is fun and inexpensive. I have seen a lot of people over the years pay a lot of money to play summer ball, then the player decides he doesn't want to play after HS anyway. Know what you are looking for and what the goals are. |
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brdymakr
53 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2013 : 21:55:18
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| I've been following this thread this week and I can see some of both sides, BUT, I do agree with BWV and 743 in that it just good business (and good for the sport at a youth level) to have multiple options at multiple price points so that families of ALL backgrounds and means have a place for their child to play our great game. It's about the kids not about the wins to us. Each family is entitled to their own choice and view on the topic. If it seems like too much or is enough to put other stresses on the family then choose a different option, they're out there. If it fits and you're comfortable with the Coach/Organization then go for it. Just Play Ball. |
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nfbaseball
19 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2013 : 08:31:04
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I agree with brdymakr and bballman. I ran a team for several year, pretty successful. Boys grew and became better players. Could have kept the team intact, but several wanted to ramp their games up to a higher level of play, several were not able to ramp their games up.
We were able to keep a modest budget, did some fundraising, played in some quality tournaments and had some outside coaching. It is all about priorities.
Some of the parents helped with field maintenance, running our own concession stand and uniforms.
Their are teams out there - but as they said ask your son what he wants to do. If he wants to play past high school, go out there and find the right for your son.
There are many teams available with various budgets, shoe string ($1000 / player) - exclusive ($3000 / player).
But talk to your kid, the team with the most expensive budget may not be the best for your son. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2013 : 09:25:29
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I think that most everyone has touched upon great points to BBall123's original post. No one is being excluded from playing due to cost. Each family needs to determine if THEY find value in whichever option they choose. In the OP, the question is raised of "what's next, .....$5,000?". It's very possible if supply and demand dictates and enough families believe that there's value to them at that price point.
What I find interesting is that no one has commented at all on his passing comment about the cost of high school ball. Some of these programs are completely out of hand with some of the exorbitant pricing and their attempt to hold you hostage by "requiring" that you play in their fall and summer programs. Some programs are now charging between $500 - $1,000 for FALL! Glorified rec games for 6 weeks, 12-15 games, with 20 yr olds &/or dads coaching. You leave with a t-shirt (jersey), a cap and the check mark for the coach that you played (translated "paid"). Ditto for the summer program. Add on the spring team fees, booster club, fundraising events, etc., etc. and many high schools are now costing easily between $2,000 - $3,000 per player for the year. This ISN'T free market where you can just go find a cost appropriate high school option to play. Compare the money spent here to the recruiting opportunity to that of travel and see where your real value lies.
Are we heading toward AAU basketball where some of the best players in the country aren't playing for their high school because there's no value in it to them relative to the opportunity? |
Edited by - in_the_know on 07/26/2013 09:58:23 |
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GeorgiaPeach
26 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2013 : 09:37:30
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| I'm gonna agree with BB123's major points: If you do decide to go to one of these high priced teams, better check with someone in the program to see if they are getting their money's worth. This is the ultimate test. Having played in both the "high priced" programs ($3300 - $3800 per year) , my answer is that I definately did not get the proper return on investment. Also, turnover in the program is something to monitor as well. I'm sure everyone will make the choice that seems to fit their needs, but I hate to see anyone get burned when shelling out that kind of expenditure. |
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HITANDRUN
436 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2013 : 09:17:16
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quote:
Originally posted by in_the_know
"No one is being excluded from playing due to cost." Each family needs to determine if THEY find value in whichever option they choose.
So you are saying the single mom who works two jobs, to make ends meet can afford to pay 1K for baseball? What is her other option have her son play rec baseball and when they get to high school not make the team because high school coaches today instead of developing players (like they did 20 years ago), now expect them to be game ready and just run them out on the field. Baseball has turned into an expensive sport when it used to be virtually fee. That is why so many kids are turning away from baseball and turning to football it's cheaper and they give way better scholarships.
The local league set up by the parks and rec department is for those who aren’t "serious". Anyone with some amount of talent — identified as young as age six, I’ve observed — is steered toward more intense leagues, which tend to be pay-to-play and which involve a lot of travel.
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2013 : 11:32:53
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quote:
Originally posted by HITANDRUN
quote:
Originally posted by in_the_know
"No one is being excluded from playing due to cost." Each family needs to determine if THEY find value in whichever option they choose.
So you are saying the single mom who works two jobs, to make ends meet can afford to pay 1K for baseball? What is her other option have her son play rec baseball and when they get to high school not make the team because high school coaches today instead of developing players (like they did 20 years ago), now expect them to be game ready and just run them out on the field. Baseball has turned into an expensive sport when it used to be virtually fee. That is why so many kids are turning away from baseball and turning to football it's cheaper and they give way better scholarships.
The local league set up by the parks and rec department is for those who aren’t "serious". Anyone with some amount of talent — identified as young as age six, I’ve observed — is steered toward more intense leagues, which tend to be pay-to-play and which involve a lot of travel.
You can't expect to play for free when there is a cost associated with playing. Who should pick up the tab for uniforms, tournament fees, baseballs, umpires, field rental fees, etc... Should the coach pay for all that and let the player play for free? Of course there are costs associated with it. Football isn't that cheap either.
And yes, baseball used to be virtually free. My son played rec league until he was 11. It cost something like $375 if you lived in the town that was putting on the rec league. May be more than that now. That is still an option. And that was the only option back when baseball was virtually free.
There are plenty of teams out there now that have some dads coaching that don't charge ANYTHING for their time. They just divvy up the actual costs for the season. That's about the best deal you will get out there. If you want to play for virtually free, you have to take the options that are available to you. That would be rec leagues or maybe Legion ball once you get to HS age. Once again, it is a cost benefit analysis. You want to play in high visibility tournaments, it costs money. If you want to play for not very much money, then there are options out there.
Same thing with anything else in the world. If you don't want to pay a lot for a car, there are options out there, you will just be getting a no frills model. If you want all the luxury of a BMW 750i, you are going to have to pay more. It is what it is. It's not just baseball. |
Edited by - bballman on 07/29/2013 18:20:04 |
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coach0512
123 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2013 : 14:30:00
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quote:
Originally posted by HITANDRUN
quote:
Originally posted by in_the_know
"No one is being excluded from playing due to cost." Each family needs to determine if THEY find value in whichever option they choose.
So you are saying the single mom who works two jobs, to make ends meet can afford to pay 1K for baseball? What is her other option have her son play rec baseball and when they get to high school not make the team because high school coaches today instead of developing players (like they did 20 years ago), now expect them to be game ready and just run them out on the field. Baseball has turned into an expensive sport when it used to be virtually fee. That is why so many kids are turning away from baseball and turning to football it's cheaper and they give way better scholarships.
The local league set up by the parks and rec department is for those who aren’t "serious". Anyone with some amount of talent — identified as young as age six, I’ve observed — is steered toward more intense leagues, which tend to be pay-to-play and which involve a lot of travel.
Thats slightly unfair H&R. There will ALWAYS be exceptions to every rule. Of course a single mom with two jobs can't pay $1,000 for baseball. But she can help with fundraising, seek donations, etc, IF her player has the talent as you allude.
In her case, the Rec league is exactly the place to be. There are more rec league parks with travel teams than there are expensive academys. Those same rec leagues are more apt to find a way to help a struggling family afford ball for a talented player than a team at an academy.
I was out of work for 2 years and still managed to work many odd jobs, sell excess household items, fundraise, ask former clients to sponsor my kid, gave up cable TV and other "luxuries that aren't needed", etc, so he played travel for those years and it wasn't cheap. I volunteered at the fields all the time because I didn't work so I could get things done during normal work hours. In response the rec league "forgave" the portion I couldn't otherwise cover. Teammates parents fell over themselves to help us get to/from games and practices because they knew our situation.
Not everyone, especially the single mom, could do the exact same thing but I think you can always find a way to cover a $1,000 - $1,200 travel team if you want it bad enough for your kid.
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BBall123
395 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2013 : 20:50:37
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Making Baseball so that only the well off have a shot at making it anywhere, The high fees are ruining the game. First one guy charges $3600 THEN 2 NOW 5! Next year there will be 10 BUT, there will be a couple at $4500 then. and on and on until you cant play anywhere for less than $5000.
THEN WHAT ?
Its ruining the game.
Some of you don't care because you can afford it, but not everyone can.
And good luck finding a team for $1000 ,
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Edited by - BBall123 on 07/29/2013 21:46:19 |
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barsred98
116 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2013 : 16:13:11
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I have recently heard of some of the higher priced teams also using part of those high fees paid by more affluent parents to fund more talented players who may not be able to afford to pay for that particular team.
If it a stretch for your family to pay than just be aware that others may not be stretching as tightly due to deals made to get more talented players.
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2013 : 18:43:09
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quote:
Originally posted by HITANDRUN
quote:
Originally posted by in_the_know
"No one is being excluded from playing due to cost." Each family needs to determine if THEY find value in whichever option they choose.
So you are saying the single mom who works two jobs, to make ends meet can afford to pay 1K for baseball? What is her other option have her son play rec baseball and when they get to high school not make the team because high school coaches today instead of developing players (like they did 20 years ago), now expect them to be game ready and just run them out on the field. Baseball has turned into an expensive sport when it used to be virtually fee. That is why so many kids are turning away from baseball and turning to football it's cheaper and they give way better scholarships.
The local league set up by the parks and rec department is for those who aren’t "serious". Anyone with some amount of talent — identified as young as age six, I’ve observed — is steered toward more intense leagues, which tend to be pay-to-play and which involve a lot of travel.
No, I never said that a single mom working two jobs can afford to pay $1,000 for baseball. I said that no one is excluded from playing due to cost. They may be excluded from where they'd LIKE to play, but there are places at all price points. Perhaps not the nicest fields or uniforms or coaches or indoor facility or etc., etc., but if she wants her kid to play baseball, she can find an affordable option.
What you seem to imply is that she is ENTITLED for her kid to be able to play anywhere that she wants and money shouldn't be a deterrent. Sounds pretty socialist to me. There's a lot of nice country clubs I'd like to play golf at but can't afford it. Does that mean I can't play golf? Not at all. I just can't play everywhere. No different that private schools or cars. You find what you can afford and you live within your means.
And if her kid doesn't get developed and doesn't make the high school team, because she couldn't afford her preferred option, so be it. Just like college. You may not get into the one you want. This may prevent you from landing the honey job you wanted. Guess what, life's not fair. You were never promised fair.
If the kid has talent and dedication, he'll play at every level he's capable of playing. There are kids being drafted to the pros every year who didn't play in programs with near the structure and resources as we have access to here in the metro Atlanta area. A shiny L-Screen and Under Armor uniform isn't going to guarantee a kid grows and develops.
Travel ball has been a natural migration of players and parents wanting to pit themselves with the best to play against the best. There's a cost to doing this. It doesn't mean that every kid playing high level travel will make a high school team, play D1 or get drafted. No more than NOT playing intense travel would guarantee a player not advancing.
And by the way, kids are leaving baseball to play football because television and our culture has made that the sexy option today. People want fast paced action. Baseball is a much slower game and it being marketed to kids with a microwave mentality. Kids aren't leaving the sport because it's too expensive to play.
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Edited by - in_the_know on 08/06/2013 21:27:55 |
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ivpartner
80 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2013 : 20:52:52
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My son will be 14U next year and I noticed that many teams like Team GA, Team Elite, and Georgia Jackets, fees are $600-$800 dollars MORE than East Cobb and 643DP.
It looks like they roll the cost individual instruction for players to support those teams instruction facilities where the parents and players want it or not. ECB and 643 do not add that extra costs onto players and team budgets. That is a big difference in team fees so just know what you are paying for.
We prefer to determine our sons need and instructor choices without it being forced on us. |
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HITANDRUN
436 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2013 : 09:01:18
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So we are now arguing about 3500 vs 4100? Back in the day it used to cost less than 1K to play travel baseball even at the hs and collegiate level.
Its funny the collegiate summer league in GA is cheaper than all the 18 and under travel baseball in GA. |
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BBall123
395 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2013 : 20:59:55
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H&R , yeah its funny but NOT funny.
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BBall123
395 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2013 : 21:25:52
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Same thing with anything else in the world. If you don't want to pay a lot for a car, there are options out there, you will just be getting a no frills model. If you want all the luxury of a BMW 750i, you are going to have to pay more. It is what it is. It's not just baseball.
EXACTLY My point, its EXCLUDING kids that cant pay. A few elitist's think its ok because they can afford it. And as one said " It keeps the riff raff out" or something like that?
Proving my point that these fees (that we are supporting by the way)
Are pushing people out and excluding them. Think of all the great players down through the history of the game that we wouldn't even know about if it had always been that way.
You are asked to pay 3800$ and you are NOT getting anything for it other than to say your kid plays for an ex pro player and to learn a few drills you might not have seen before. Guess what, two months in, you have learned all the drills, then its just another baseball practice from there on out.
These guys are driving the costs up, and the worst ones are the ones who constantly preach about "caring for your" kid and "teaching them other things besides the game". They care about your kid as long as he is making them and their academy look good and as long as the checks keep getting stroked.
How about this, how about you just coach baseball and we as parents will care about our kids and teach them what else they need to know. A whole lot less kids will get hurt that way when a player you think is better comes along. |
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PowerOfDixieland
16 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2013 : 21:44:12
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quote:
Originally posted by BBall123
Some of you don't care because you can afford it, but not everyone can.
I can afford it, but my kid's game isn't worth it (yet). Worked out with a 15U team that wanted him, AND $3,800. I choked and then politely declined. Be real with your assessment of where your son's skills are. If he can play with the Astros he'll be there one way or another.
Back to the expense, God love 'em they're taking advantage of what this great country was built on - free enterprise. If you don't like it, don't pay it. |
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BBall123
395 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2013 : 22:20:53
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| PowerOfDixieland , I get that , and I agree with you. But that's not the point I was trying to make. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2013 : 23:01:26
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BBall123, you're missing my point completely. The point is that there ARE other options out there. You don't HAVE to pay $3800 if you don't want to. There are teams out there with dads still coaching that don't charge for their time. Of course there will still be a fee to play. Because there are costs associated with playing. The coach should not have to pay that out of their own pocket.
Why should EVERY coach do this for free anyway? If they don't have a kid on the team, why should the coach pay for his own travel expenses and why should he not get some compensation for his time? For those programs with their own complexes - 643, ECB, Home Plate, etc - there are costs associated with having these. Purchasing the property, taxes, grounds keeping, new stands, score boards, electricity bills, etc. should the families who play there expect the owner to pay for all that out of his pocket?
Back in the days you are talking about, kids played on city or county fields with city or county employees doing the upkeep. Dads coached because their kids were on the team. That is still around. It's called recreational baseball. Travel came about because kids and parents wanted more than playing in a local rec league. They wanted to be the "elite". It has turned into the norm and travel players are not necessarily the elite anymore. Times have changed. Baseball is bigger and more expensive. But it's because that's what people wanted. It wasn't forced on anyone.
There is still rec ball out there. It is an option. There are still dad coaches out there who don't charge for their time and use city parks as their home field. It is an option. There are teams with coaches who should be compensated for their time. It is an option. And there are teams out there with their own facilities and their own staff. These things cost money and the players who chose to play for those teams are going to help pay for the expenses and coaches. It is an option. It's not the only option, just one of many. Anyone who wants to play can play. They just have to pick the option that best fits their budget and time constraints.
You can't get on here and say that kids are getting squeezed out of baseball and only the rich can play. It's just not true. There are options for every family out there. Not everyone can have a Ferrari. Just like in real life, but everyone can have a car. When it comes time for HS ball or college recruiting, coaches don't care what summer team you played for. They care about how you play baseball. That can be developed on an inexpensive team or an expensive team. Doesn't matter to the coaches one little bit. |
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BBall123
395 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2013 : 05:02:21
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BBallman, Now that's presenting a view point I can agree with. What you are saying makes sense.
Im my OP I was trying to say that as one,then two then three "programs go to these fees, next year it will be 8 and the first three will raise prices again. The next year it will be 15 and higher and higher we go. At some point people/family's/players start dropping off the merry go round because they just cant afford to play.
But, I guess it is what it is. As long as some will continue to pay, the fees will continue to rise. Because its not about kids and baseball anymore, its all about the money.
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UPPERDECKER
34 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2013 : 08:54:41
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| BBall123, I agree it is in some cases about the money. To reply to IVPartner, it may be true that ECB, and 643 is less expensive than other academies because they don't add instructional fees into their team fees. But believe me I know from first hand experience if you do not take those coaches up on their " offers" of pitching lessons or hitting lessons interest in your son is shuffled to the back burner in place of the check writers that pad these guys pockets! Been there done that! |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2013 : 08:59:21
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There will always be alternatives out there. My son has been involved with all this for the last 8 years and although there has been an increase in the higher cost teams, there are still lower cost alternatives available and I think there always will be.
Here's the thing. Prior to HS, it doesn't matter where you play. HS coaches don't care what team you played for as long as you can play. My son played for a travel team based out of the local rec park until he was 14 and wound up a starting varsity pitcher on a 5A (now 6A) HS team. He didn't play for the Astros or Team Elite or Roadrunners or any of the high profile/high cost teams. He could play and that's what the coaches cared about. Once you get to HS, it's about exposure - if you want to play at the next level. Part of what you pay for on the higher cost teams is the coach's contacts in the college baseball world. These coaches will contact colleges, set up workouts in front of college coaches and at their schools. Dads may not have the clout to do that. That doesn't mean the kids won't have the opportunity to play college ball. It just means the parents and player will have to do more work on their own. It can happen and it does all the time.
Are people making money off of baseball? Of course. People put a lot of time into doing this and in my opinion, they should be compensated. But no one is getting filthy rich off of it, at least at the youth level. Plus the fact that there are expenses associated with doing all this will mean that the costs are somewhat higher.
I appreciate the fact that you feel this way. Just keep in mind that there is more to it all than meets the eye. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2013 : 10:36:47
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quote:
Originally posted by UPPERDECKER
BBall123, I agree it is in some cases about the money. To reply to IVPartner, it may be true that ECB, and 643 is less expensive than other academies because they don't add instructional fees into their team fees. But believe me I know from first hand experience if you do not take those coaches up on their " offers" of pitching lessons or hitting lessons interest in your son is shuffled to the back burner in place of the check writers that pad these guys pockets! Been there done that!
I don't know where you get that?? My son played for 643 and never took a lesson from them and played as much as anyone. More than some. If you perform, you will play. Maybe lessons are being "suggested" because his on field performance isn't up to expectations. And that's why that player isn't getting as much play time. My son joined the team as a SS & pitcher. Played a lot of SS as well as pitched in the beginning, but didn't hit well, so his time diminished at SS, but was the go to guy on the mound. His SS time didn't diminish because he didn't take lessons, it diminished because he wasn't hitting. He and I both knew that. Like I said, never took a lesson from 643 staff. This is just not true. |
Edited by - bballman on 08/08/2013 10:53:56 |
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ivpartner
80 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2013 : 11:46:12
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To reply to UpperDecker, my experience is very different than yours. Both my sons have played for 4 different baseball organizations and one of them was 643.
The 643 head coach for my sons team was also a pitching instructor on staff at 643 and he NEVER charged us for individual lessons. In fact he had my son come 30 minutes early to our scheduled team practices and worked with my son one on one with his pitching to help his development. We never paid him any additional money and I offered!
I know that Team Georgia has an arrangement with Aaron Alverez and Grand Slam Sports to provide instructors and lessons/instruction for their teams and they package that cost into annual team fees. We played at Team GA so I know what I am talking about. I also know that TEam Elite does the same thing. So does Georgia Jackets in their arrangement with Auterson Baseball.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with that approach if you are OK with it as a parent. But the topic is the rising costs of annual team fees. My POINT is that if you are concerned with rising team costs then choose an organization that doesn't package fees and you will save $600-$800 dollars annually at ages 13 and up.
Just know what you are paying for. |
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Fee's for travel ball going higher and higher ?
