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hshuler
1074 Posts |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
 Posted - 04/20/2012 : 10:17:41
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| Welcome to high school. Clearly that is over the top, but it's not unusual at all for both starting pitchers in a prep matchup to exceed the 100 pitch count in a game. I've seen several where both were around the 125-135 mark while throwing complete games. |
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JABA
16 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2012 : 10:48:11
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| There was a kid in middle school at the start of this season that threw 275 pitches in a game on a Thursday, came back the following Monday and threw 250. His team got pounded both games, losing by double digits, but the coach never took him out. The kid did not throw hard, but still. I feel bad for the parents that don't understand the game and let that happen, but that is just criminal for the coach to do. |
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4bagger
131 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2012 : 11:53:48
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There is currently alot of debate going on in the Majors about pitch counts. Starters are being pulled when they hit some magical pitch count number and most are not going past the 5th or 6th inning no matter how good they feel, the type of pitches they have thrown, etc.
Listen to Leo Mazzone on 93.7fm because he rants about it every day. He says it is ridiculous to remove a starter because he hits some arbitrary number. He also says it puts way too much pressure on the bullpens to come out and pitch that extra 1 or 2 innings that starters used to work. He blames colleges and the minors for teaching young pitchers arms to stop around 100 pitches.
Now, these two coaches were just plain stupid. No one is advocating pitch counts that high.
But I think we will all see an about face regarding pitch count numbers in the next 3-5 years. More focus will be on the type of pitches, innings that have stressed a pitchers arm compared to other innings, what you have in the bullpen to come in for relief, relief pitchers throwing more than just heat, etc instead of just plain pitch count.
In NY a high school kid was pulled 3 outs shy of pitching a no hitter complete game because he hit 102 pitches. Very tough decision. Give him his CGNH or pull him because he hit a magical 100 pitches??
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hshuler
1074 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2012 : 12:56:26
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4Bagger,
I agree that some of these guys at the higher levels don't throw enough but what were these coaches thinking about? This is an example of why I think pitchers should always lean towards signing out of high school vs playing in college...because some college coaches do this too. The organizations that draft and sign pitchers are more likely to protect their investment. High school and college coaches are trying to keep their jobs. I would also like to say that I don't think that most high school and college coaches would do what these coaches did.
HS
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Edited by - hshuler on 04/20/2012 13:17:21 |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2012 : 13:46:40
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| My son's pitching instructor coaches a 17 YO team and he doesn't let them go much north of 80-85. |
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funnyhop
74 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2012 : 18:11:12
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quote:
Originally posted by JABA
There was a kid in middle school at the start of this season that threw 275 pitches in a game on a Thursday, came back the following Monday and threw 250. His team got pounded both games, losing by double digits, but the coach never took him out. The kid did not throw hard, but still. I feel bad for the parents that don't understand the game and let that happen, but that is just criminal for the coach to do.
Are you sure? I mean, if the kid throws 275 pitches at 20 secs / pitch, that would be a flat 90 minutes of nothing but 1 kid throwing and nothing else. That excludes the other team batting, warm ups, inning changes, plays that do not include a pitch and throwback from the catcher.
Must have been a very long game. My guess is somewhere around 4 hours, provided that the other team had a kid that threw only 21 pitches in 7 innings. That way he used 1 pitch per kid he faced and threw a perfect 7 innings.
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JABA
16 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2012 : 22:26:24
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Yes, I'm sure, both games were actually right around 3 hours.
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biged
198 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2012 : 19:41:00
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Throwing maximum velocity is what causes arm problems not number of pitches. ie, the average coach throws 200 plus pitches every day. Why don't they have issues? Well, because they are not throwing maximum velocity. Strasburg, pitcher for the Nationals who throws 100 +, blew his arm last year despite being on a strict pitch count. Problem is that they didn't put a limit on how hard he could throw.
It is been stated that the human being can only run so fast before the ligaments pull away from the bone. Well, common sense would tell you the same holds true for the arm/shoulder.
It has also been documented that the arm is like a tire. It only has so many miles on it. Some tires last longer than others, but they all have a limit. So, you young dads out there please keep in mind that less is more. My son is now a junior. Kids have been falling steady and fast due to shoulder and arm issues the past two years. Kids that were "studs" back when they were 11 are now getting surgery. Tommy Johns and the career killer torn labrum. |
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SMASH
253 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2012 : 21:44:07
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| Don't forget rotator cuff. I would gladly trade 2 tommy johns for my rotator. |
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dad4kids
109 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2012 : 13:29:29
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| Biged, what is your specific advice for the week/month/season? Limit their pitching sessions? Encourage them not to throw as hard? |
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biged
198 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2012 : 22:38:12
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There is no specific advice I or anybody can give. Problem is that no arm is the same. Some can be abused and some can't.
That being said here is my advice:
Encourage kids to throw at a comfortable speed about 80% of max. Throw max no more than 3 times a game. Use max velocity against the big hitters in important spots. Hitting spots and learning a change up is how to be effective in the long run. A good change up can make the average fastball appear much faster.
Four or more days rest between games when pitching. (There is a lot of literature out there about number of pitches recommended for each age)
I personally would find a team where the coaches work with 8 or more pitchers and actually use them in a game.
As hard as it is to do, simply don't pitch till 15. Let puberty and the big growth spurt settle in and then teach pitching. I have seen a lot of smaller kids grow a foot during this time and move from second base to pitcher over night. I have also seen a lot of bigger kids stop growing and move out of the pitching position.
and finally long toss, long toss, long toss 80% of course |
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bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2012 : 14:08:46
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biged:
Great post, great advice. You have to go through the whole cycle, or have friends who have that will share their experience with you, to know this.
I hope everyone on this forum will read your post, and follow the advice.
I have a friend whose son pitched Freshman and Sophomore seasons of College at a small school, and earned the opportunity to go to a larger school for his last 2 years. Your post jives with all I have learned from him, and his son.
I'm beginning to see Pitchers in 13U Rec, All Stars, and low level travel ball, emerge that nobody ever thought much of. There's some travel coaches totally overlooking talent right under their noses.
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Edited by - bmoser on 04/26/2012 15:08:09 |
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Heater
74 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2012 : 15:34:57
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quote:
Originally posted by JABA
There was a kid in middle school at the start of this season that threw 275 pitches in a game on a Thursday, came back the following Monday and threw 250. His team got pounded both games, losing by double digits, but the coach never took him out. The kid did not throw hard, but still. I feel bad for the parents that don't understand the game and let that happen, but that is just criminal for the coach to do.
Is this really that bad if this kid has no chance of pitching at the next level? (assuming he wasn't pitching in pain). The reason coaches limit pitch counts is to avoid future arm issues at the next levels. Allowing a kid under 15-16 to throw 200 pitches is CRAZY, but in H.S. who cares. |
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wareagle
324 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2012 : 16:32:06
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Heater,
Hope you were kidding, if not I'm glad you are not my son's coach.
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2012 : 18:55:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Heater
Allowing a kid under 15-16 to throw 200 pitches is CRAZY, but in H.S. who cares.
I care. I want my kids to have lives well beyond now, whether they play ball at any level past high school. Arms are a pretty important appendage in my experience. I use mine at least twice a week. Maybe carry in some groceries, hang a picture, play catch with my kids, golf, etc.
Seriously Heater, are you nuts!!! I feel VERY sorry for your kids if they don't have anyone looking out for their long term interests. |
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hshuler
1074 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2012 : 23:35:24
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Heater,
First of all, when your arm gets tired your mechanics break down which - elevates your risk for injury. Do you know anyone who has a rotator cuff injury? You don't have to pitch for it to hurt like the dickens. Sometimes you can't do very basic things. Secondly, this kid has already signed with either LSU or Tulane so he is going to the next level. Would you want your kid to throw 200 pitches? I hope not...
HS |
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2playersmom
59 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2012 : 10:50:29
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Ed talks about the long toss exercising , so what do you arrange for a schedule for that ; how many days to wait until after you pitch and then how many days to wait to pitch after long toss ?
Because it would be stress on the arm to long toss too, wouldnt it ?? |
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mstimpson
57 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2012 : 14:38:32
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quote:
Originally posted by 2playersmom
Ed talks about the long toss exercising , so what do you arrange for a schedule for that ; how many days to wait until after you pitch and then how many days to wait to pitch after long toss ?
Because it would be stress on the arm to long toss too, wouldnt it ??
If your child is not experiencing discomfort, they should long toss the day after they pitch. Also, the long toss should not be throwing at a long distance on a line. As was mentioned earlier, it should be at 80%, even one hopping the throwing partner is recommended. Long toss is good to stretch out the arm and break up lactic acid build up. Another forgotten aspect to pitching is to train the small muscles in the arm and shoulder. There are several arm exercises, utilizing a full water bottle or two pound weight, that are great to build the ligaments and tendons around the larger muscles. Ice is also a great precautionary measure, if it can be applied right after an outing.
Now, 200+ pitches in a game is ridiculous and a parent or coach should never allow it, especially when a team is getting blown out. I do agree with Leo Mazzoni (as a previous poster mentioned)! MLB pitchers seldom go longer than 6. Growing up and watching MLB, most went to 7-8 and then Eckersley or Bedrock would come in and shut doors. Could you imagine walking out to the mound in the 6th inning and telling Bob Gibson or Nolan Ryan he has thrown 96 pitches and he is done? |
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dad4kids
109 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2012 : 21:26:57
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quote:
Originally posted by hshuler
Heater,
First of all, when your arm gets tired your mechanics break down which - elevates your risk for injury. Do you know anyone who has a rotator cuff injury? You don't have to pitch for it to hurt like the dickens. Sometimes you can't do very basic things. Secondly, this kid has already signed with either LSU or Tulane so he is going to the next level. Would you want your kid to throw 200 pitches? I hope not...
Glad someone mentioned this. Nolan Ryan attributes his longevity to his overall commitment to training and conditioning, and particularly to leg strength, which he maintained by working out between starts and in the off-season. According to Ryan, good pitching relies on the legs and the core first; when they become fatigued, mechanics suffer and pitchers overuse their arms and shoulders, leading to injury. So, while good mechanics are critical to prevent injury, good conditioning is essential to avoid bad mechanics. |
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This is insane!!!
