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in_the_know
985 Posts |
 Posted - 03/12/2012 : 09:51:13
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I watched about a dozen games at the Slugfest over the weekend and saw several players using bats that were not legal. I'm not talking about bats that there were suspicions of tampering. I'm specifically talking about previous year models without the USSSA stamp (big barrel, not small barrel) and BESR -3 bats instead of BBCOR. I also overheard coaches who recognized the opposing teams were using a non-compliant bat but chose to just let it go. To be clear, I NEVER heard any coach indicate that he was aware that any of HIS players were knowingly using a non-compliant bat. I'm not accusing any teams of knowingly cheating. I really think that there is still a bit of ignorance on a lot of peoples part with respect to what is legal and what is not. In the case of Triple Crown, their penalties defer to NFHS when using a non-compliant bat which state that as soon as player steps into the box, the batter is considered to have used the illegal bat (doesn't have to see a pitch) with the penalty of the batter being ruled "out" and all runners returning to their base occupied at the start of the at-bat.
In the case of one game, protesting would VERY likely have changed the final outcome of the game which one team was eliminated and would probably not have been had they protested the use of the bat.
So what's everyone's take on this? As I mentioned, I saw several coaches simply choose not to take a bat out of an opposing player's hands. Certainly their prerogative, but definitely shifts advantage to kids using bats hotter than others. Is everyone going to simply overlook the new restrictions and play-on, regardless of what bats are being used? Real curious to what others saw this weekend and what some coaches think about the matter.
Before everyone piles on about whether they think the bats are really any different with or without the new stamp, this is not the intent of this question. I don't really care if you think the change was done for money, if there is any difference between last year/this year models, etc. I think that topic has been beaten to death. I also know that some manufacturers didn't change paint schemes on their bats between last year's models and the new bpf 1.15 stamped model. I'm not including those in my observations. I saw bats that were 2-3 years old and there's no question that they were not legal. Both non-bpf 1.15 and BESR, both of which would be illegal for the Slugfest.
So what are coaches going to do this year and is this rule change really going to make any difference in what players swing? |
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Beaux
23 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2012 : 10:26:08
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| I am really not sure why this is an issue. The Umps should require every team to line their bats up for a look and then let's play ball. If there is a legit protest during the game, that team should be required to forfeit. WE ALL KNOW THE BAT RULES, and whether we agree or believe their valid, it really doesnt matter... we all agree to play under these rules. Period! |
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Thunder
72 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2012 : 10:38:25
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At Slugfest, there were a few issues in the 11's and 14's where the leaglity of a bat came into question. In the 11's, on Saturday, there was at least 1 bat removed from the game when the opposing coach questioned it. In the 14's on Sunday, several BESR bats were taken out of play for one team. I don't recall hearing that those bats were actually used in the game, but they were in bat bags in the dugout. When the issue was raised, bats were inspected and illegal bats taken away until the game was over.
This year is going to be an interesting year with these bats. It will get even more interesting when a kid gets the game winning hit using an illegal bat and the opposing team questions it....that's when "its" really going to hit the fan. |
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Beaux
23 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2012 : 11:03:30
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| Again I don't think this has to be this complicated. The Bat rules have been beat to death by everyone...If there is any coach that does not know the rules by now, you really have to question their overall common sense. Inspect before the game (quasi certification), and if any team uses an illegal bat then they should be required to forfeit the game. If you make it this harsh, all it will take is one time. |
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baseballdad19
1 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2012 : 16:04:27
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First time poster, long time reader.
We played in the Slugfest this past weekend in 12U. I also saw plenty of bats that were not BFP certified. One team that won their brackets had a majority of players using older bats. Absolutely not saying they won because of the bats ( very good pitching and solid defense was the reason) but very curious that so many old bats were being used.
My question is this. Why aren't umpires checking these bats before the game? Triplecrown and USSSA are making this rule change and on the surface are claiming it is player safety. So shouldn't they error on the side of safety and look at the bats? Particulary in the first few events? Then if a bats is used and you think it is different from one that has been check you can ask the umpire to recheck it. If the umpires don't or wont check the bats before the game, what's to prevent a team from asking to check every bat for every batter each time they come to the plate? Would be a great way to slow down a game that is on a time limit also.
No rule as againist it as far as i'm aware.
Also Fastpitch the umpires check the bats as well as the batting helmets and catchers gear to look for cracks or similar issues that make the equipment unsafe.
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bigdawg1991
6 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2012 : 22:13:29
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We were there in 14U as well and saw kids using illegal bats. As for the rules being enforced, they were not. A team that played in front of us even had the TD tell the coach that playing rules were not being enforced because it was early in the season. Their team was hitting 9 with an EH like the rules stated and the team they were playing hit 11 and used free defensive substitution. That coach complained and held the game up for a while to wait on the TD's answer. He told his parents that he complained because they had been playing all weekend based on the rules listed on the website which put them at a defensive disadvantage by not being able to free substitute.
Even though we had nothing to do with them, I feel bad that a coach had to complain that rules were NOT being followed when those rules were clearly stated on the TC website.
Back to the bat question: at our GHSA umpires meeting this year we were told that the umpire would not be inspecting bats pre-game. If there was a questionable bat used then the coach must speak up and have a reason when doing so. Can't just say "look at the bat" after a great hit. Coach has to say I think the bat that kid has in the box is illegal. Maybe the TC umpires this weekend are doing that...just inspecting upon request. |
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excoach12
159 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2012 : 00:00:45
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It's too easy to have an illegal bat in your bag that "misses" being inspected.
The ump should look at any bat used in the box when an unusually big hit is made. These BPF bats were supposed to cut down on the velocity of the ball. A kid jacks one over the 240' fence then the ump should simply look at the bat thats laying on the ground next to home plate. A hard grounder to SS that results in an out-don't bother. You all can tell when a hit off a BPF bat seems unusually strong so you aren't looking at every hit.
As a coach I find it hard to ask for the bat to be inspected because I'll look like a whiner. |
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Beaux
23 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2012 : 06:52:01
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Bigdawg if what you are saying about umps not inspecting prior to the start is what's going on then WOW something is totally screwed up.
Unfortunately this is why people think the new bat rules, were nothing more then mere money grab. USSSA / TC talk about player safety, but won't instruct the officals to take the 5 minutes to enforce. On the filp side, an ump will ask a kid to take off a rubber wrist band before a kid delievers a pitch, but aren't allowed to check the bats... |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2012 : 10:02:06
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That's exactly what I was expecting to hear. I'm a bit surprised it took that long for someone to state it bluntly. The new rules are in place, however, it seems they will only be enforced if an opposing coach raises question. This is quite different over questioning whether a player was safe or out on a play. This becomes the old "you're taking the game out of the kids hands - let them play" type scenario where any coach who wants to try to ensure that his opponent is following the new bat rules is likely to be seen as a whiner trying to win by any means other than letting his kids do it on the field. In fact, if his kids are playing within the new limits and his opponents are not (either knowingly or by ignorance), then that opponent isn't really doing it with the kids on the field. I think that every player, coach and parent out there would feel "robbed" if their player/team was one called out and had a game turn on such a protest, but would also be screaming to the heavens if their team lost on a double to the gap off an obviously illegal bat.
So the problem really appears that it will largely remain overlooked unless coaches are willing to take the heat for calling other teams out. There is nothing in place requiring the umpires to police it. After the Slugfest it is obvious that teams aren't policing themselves or coaches don't know the new restrictions.
To Beaux's previous comment, I don't think it needs to be complicated either. In fact, it's already pretty simple, you have to have the new USSSA stamp on a big barrel and BBCOR on any -3 (in any age group). The penalties are already defined for USSSA and Triple Crown, none of which result in a team forfeit, so there's really no question regarding the rule or penalties. All that's left is who's responsible for IDENTIFYING an infraction. That seems to fall on opposing coaches who don't seem willing in this early season to step out there yet.
quote:
Originally posted by excoach12
As a coach I find it hard to ask for the bat to be inspected because I'll look like a whiner.
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in the dirt
4 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2012 : 11:13:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Beaux
Bigdawg if what you are saying about umps not inspecting prior to the start is what's going on then WOW something is totally screwed up.
Unfortunately this is why people think the new bat rules, were nothing more then mere money grab. USSSA / TC talk about player safety, but won't instruct the officals to take the 5 minutes to enforce. On the filp side, an ump will ask a kid to take off a rubber wrist band before a kid delievers a pitch, but aren't allowed to check the bats...
x2. We had umpires in the middle of an inning (in a utrip tournamnent) stop play so our SS could bring his necklace over to the dugout. Just doesn't make sense to me why bats can't be checked. BTW could see the other team not using "approved bats" |
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bigdawg1991
6 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2012 : 12:45:33
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| In defense of the umpires being on the lookout for everything. These guys are not exclusive USSSA/Triple Crown/GHSA/GISA/Little League umpires. There are different regulations in every organization and within the organization it differs in age group. One thing I like the most about TC is that they rotate the umpires to different fields. They may be calling several different age groups during a day. I think it would be too much to expect them to have every bat regulation memorized for each game they call in a tournament. |
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coach0512
123 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2012 : 13:14:08
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So if the umps won't do it and the coaches, rightfully, feel they would like like whiners, whats the solution?
How about telling the ump at the pre-game meeting that your team will show him the bat before it leaves the home plate area on any really deep hit line drives or home runs?
Would that put the opposing team on notice that you will ask for inspections on suspicious hits? Would it make them think twice about going out there with an illegal bat?
I don't think any coach would ask for a bat inspection if the result of the hit was an out but should ask on game changing, suspicious hits. |
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ChinMusic
126 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2012 : 13:36:39
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quote:
Originally posted by bigdawg1991
In defense of the umpires being on the lookout for everything. These guys are not exclusive USSSA/Triple Crown/GHSA/GISA/Little League umpires. There are different regulations in every organization and within the organization it differs in age group. One thing I like the most about TC is that they rotate the umpires to different fields. They may be calling several different age groups during a day. I think it would be too much to expect them to have every bat regulation memorized for each game they call in a tournament.
Good points as well... With umps not required to check bats before or during the game (unless there's a specific challenge), the responsibility is on the coaches and players to make sure they only use legal bats. Penalties for multiple offenses should be severe. I hope knowingly cheating with illegal bats is not common, and that incidents to date have been accidental. Coaches, it's your responsibility to ensure legal equipment is in the dugout!!
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stepoff
92 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2012 : 13:48:41
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| The umpire in the tournament we were in this weekend stopped an inning with two outs after we scored seven runs thinking there was a run rule per inning. We were up so much that we just laughed it off with him and let it go. I saw some bats this weekend where I could not see the new sticker but was not about to ask the kid to show me his bat while he was in the on deck circle and don't think we would stop a game to have an ump take a look either. Now, if the 11 year old comes to plate with a full beard like I have seen in some 6th grade basketball tournaments we were in then I might question that... |
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Beaux
23 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2012 : 13:58:53
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| Not to get difficult, but aren't we taking about just two regs? It's either 1.15 (-13 to -5)for everyone up to 14 U, and BBCOR (-3)for 15 U and up. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2012 : 15:36:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Beaux
Not to get difficult, but aren't we taking about just two regs? It's either 1.15 (-13 to -5)for everyone up to 14 U, and BBCOR (-3)for 15 U and up.
Yes, however younger age groups can also choose to use a -3. If they do, they must also use a BBCOR. They cannot use a BESR. There are quite a few 13u players swinging -3's. |
Edited by - in_the_know on 03/13/2012 15:53:47 |
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Beaux
23 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2012 : 22:16:27
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| Even if kids at different ages use different bats....You still are only looking for a sticker, it's either a 1.15 or a BBCOR. Personally if the umps don't know the rule, they probably shouldn't be calling the game. |
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ChinMusic
126 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2012 : 07:02:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Beaux
Even if kids at different ages use different bats....You still are only looking for a sticker, it's either a 1.15 or a BBCOR. Personally if the umps don't know the rule, they probably shouldn't be calling the game.
Beaux, the umps know and understand the new bat requirements, but it's not longer their responsibility to check the bats before or during the games unless there's a particular challenge. The responsibility to play 'fair' is on the coaches, who should ensure there's no illegal bat in their dugout during a game.
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Hurricane
351 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2012 : 07:28:19
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| One solution might be make the knob of the bat and stamp brite orange so it's easy to spot or make the bat manufacturers make all new bats a certain color. Let them spend some money on their end instead of just sticking stickers on old bats. The problem is I am sure it's easy to get a sticker for almost any new looking bat. |
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SOGAS
143 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2012 : 07:36:34
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| I think the answer is in the penalty. Make it severe. 1st offense = player ejection, 2nd offense is loss of game plus player and coach ejection for remainder of tournament and the next tournament. 3rd time a team is caught using a illegal bat during a season then suspend the entire team and coaches for 1 year and no player/coach on that teams roster be allowed on any other. Those kind of penalties will cause coaches and teammates to police themselves. |
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stafcoach8
20 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2012 : 09:01:20
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| It seems to me that too much of the new bat rules are being put on the umpires. At each plate meeting the umpires ask if both teams are legally and properly equipted. This statement puts all of the bats on the head coach. If an illegal bat is used the batter is out and it is no ones fault except the head coach. Seems pretty simple to me. |
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Beaux
23 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2012 : 09:53:46
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ChinMusic-I get your point, but it's usually the ump that makes the kid take off the wristband, neckless, the white/grey sleeve, etc...all under the competitive advantage definition. Wouldn't having a bat that has been ruled illegal, for safety and competitive advantage, fall under their scope of duties?
My point is the same as SOCAS, make the penalty hurt enough that no one will try it. Also I believe coaches would be more incline to challenge/request a bat check if they knew it would care a penalty.
At the end of the day, why have a rule if no one is going to enforce it. |
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Flatbat22
18 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2012 : 23:16:43
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| The coach should be the who monitors his teams bats. If a player is found to be using an illegal bat at 13U or higher, I can almost assure you it's not an accident. There are certain teams that will dp whatever to win a game. The unbelievable part of it is the parents support this type of stuff. The penalty should be for the player and head coach to be ejected instantly. The player should also have to miss the following game. This would cut out the intentional cheating that some teams will go to in effort to win a freakin 14U baseball game. I'll refrain from naming teams, but everyone knows the 14U team in the slugfest who's known for that junk. |
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F2202
63 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2012 : 11:57:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Beaux
Bigdawg if what you are saying about umps not inspecting prior to the start is what's going on then WOW something is totally screwed up.
Triple Crown goes by NFHS rules on bats. As of the start of the 2012 season, NFHS wants their umpires to ask the coaches at the plate meeting if all the bats are legal and unaltered from their original manufacturer's design. This puts it on the coaches to be responsible for the equipment that their team is using.
The real issue is not whether or not it puts one team at an advantage or disadvantage, its whether or not somebody is going to get hurt. Fortunately for umpires, if they ask about it at the plate meeting, it puts all the liability on the coach of that team. In a lawsuit friendly world, this is probably something the coaches should be aware of. |
Edited by - F2202 on 03/15/2012 13:29:16 |
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Beaux
23 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2012 : 07:47:43
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Well since it's apparent that the burden falls on the coaches to ensure that the new bat rules be adhered to, I for one will ensure that our team challenges any bat that is suspect. This week we are playing in the NIT, and there are several teams that are well known for bending the rules no matter what the consequences.
Quick question to the group, has the Easton Stealth Speed LSS4XL ever passed the 1.15 rating? This the 2 1/4 size bat, that seems to be the favorite of a couple of these teams. |
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Gus Ball Still Wins
77 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2012 : 08:21:02
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| As with most things, I think it comes down to the parents. Don't let your kid go out there with an illegal bat. If we all did that this would not be an issue. |
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"Illegal Bats" - What's being done?
