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baseball1964
5 Posts |
 Posted - 01/23/2012 : 12:43:24
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| I have always heard that if you can hit there is always a place for you on a team. Is that really true? I know a great young man that is a man child and can crush (free swinger)the baseball but, is a liability on the field. His primary position is 1st base. Strong arm and weak glove. There is another terrific young man that knows the strike zone but does not have power. He will single you and double toy to death! great glove and average arm. Utility player but primary is 3rd or SS. Will the singles hitter ever make a majors team? Will the big bat ever drop down to AAA? By the way, both boys pitch. Everyone has to fill a need and all situations are different and I understand that. If you can have one as an everyday player....who do you pick?? |
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Linedrive11
91 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2012 : 13:15:47
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| If I already had a good hitting team, then I would take the player that has a much better glove. However, if I had a very weak hitting team with good fielders, then I would take the kid with power. It seems that having a better everyday player would be the logical choice in most situations. Good luck. |
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HITANDRUN
436 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2012 : 13:43:33
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| For me defense wins games. True SS over big hitter every day of the week if he is really a true SS. Catcher that can not hit would be even better than a SS. I don't believe the if you can hit they will find you a place to play. If you can't run you are doomed unless your home run numbers are similar to Pete Incaviglia's when he was in college. |
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rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2012 : 14:20:00
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Editing my first response: the one who gets on base more often...
By "finding a place for a hitter" do you mean the home run hitter or the kid who hits doubles and singles?
If the kid with the good defensive skills is getting on base and getting RBIs in the process, I'd take him because it sounds like he is closer to having 5 tools than the other one.
A kid has to know how to play in all aspects of the game and not just hit. I know a few kids trying out next week for their 9th grade teams who may be in for a shock. They can hit and they are fast - but they can't play infield, outfield OR pitch and not one of them is a catcher. We have one more year before going through it so you can bet we are watching closely! |
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Jack-of-Diamonds
152 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2012 : 15:26:53
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Just watched Moneyball last night. According to the movie, the A's built their post-superstar team around offensive value players with enphahsis on small-ball. OBP was paramount, or at least OBP versus budget, fielding secondary.
Not sure I agree with this completely, especially since we're not dealing with player salaries in travel ball (I hope). While it's true that you've got to be able to generate runs, it only take one to win a game if you can shut down your opponent. OTOH, if your defense is weak you can still win games by out hitting them.
It comes down to balance. Linedrive11 pegged the answer to this one, IMO. Which player you take depends on what you've already got. I'd add that it also depends on the age group.
My son just moved up to 60/90 last Fall playing 14u. The fields are huge! That changes the game. Defense is critical, as always, but I see a distinct difference in run production. A lot of the kids that were traditionally power hitters at younger ages are having to make more of an adjustment than are the contact hitters and kids with a good eye and high OBP's. IMO building a team around that makes sense at this level. With two on and two out, a hard line-drive to the gap puts two runs on the board. A 300 ft pop on a 325 field is just an exciting fly out to end the inning with a goose-egg. |
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baseball1964
5 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2012 : 15:31:38
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| Thanks. When I spoke of "finding a place for a hitter" I was speaking of the big home run hitter. |
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jacjacatk
154 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2012 : 15:45:24
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If the choice is between a hitter who can't field and a glove guy that can't hit and we're talking kids under 13/14 (at the same position), take the hitter because it's more likely you can teach him to be useful on the field than you can fix the hitter. Positional issues will obviously also have an impact, it's a lot easier to find guys who can handle 1B defensively so you don't have to settle for a weak bat or move a lead-gloved SS who can hit somewhere that his glove isn't as big a problem.
But that's not usually the choice. It's far more often between a no-glove masher, and a solid-glove guy who mashes a little less. Or between a no-hit gold-glover and a guy with decent bat and good glove. And one dimensional players don't make the cut unless that sole skill is a huge outlier relative to their competition. |
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jalex
25 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2012 : 16:08:43
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| If the big hitter can run and hit for average, will take him, with practice you should be able to teach him how to field. The thing about the big field runs are a premium. That is why pitchers and big hitters make the most money in the majors. |
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Newbie BB Mom
141 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2012 : 17:01:04
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A few related questions:
Is the combination of being a big hitter (lots of triples and home runs) and having a high OBP unusual. I'm new to the whole sabremetrics thing.
Also, I often see folks on these boards talking about either big hitters who are slow or small hitters who are fast. What about kids who are big hitters who are also very fast. How common is that?
And how does a coach evaluate a kid's OBP potential or does he not worry about that during tryouts? |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2012 : 18:48:18
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| You can always EH the big cat. You can't ESS the glove.... |
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jacjacatk
154 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2012 : 20:58:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Newbie BB Mom
A few related questions:
Is the combination of being a big hitter (lots of triples and home runs) and having a high OBP unusual. I'm new to the whole sabremetrics thing.
Also, I often see folks on these boards talking about either big hitters who are slow or small hitters who are fast. What about kids who are big hitters who are also very fast. How common is that?
And how does a coach evaluate a kid's OBP potential or does he not worry about that during tryouts?
At the youth level (say 12U and under), the guys who can hit have higher OBPs, because the majority of the walks are the "fault" of the pitchers and good hitters will put the strikes in play and bad hitters won't while everyone walks a lot. The exceptions are generally the really free swingers, who either end up missing a lot and having terrible OBPs or making a lot of contact which tends to lead to being on base a fair bit anyway when reached-on-error is accounted for. At the major league level, OBP often (but not always) correlates with power because the best hitters tend to lay off bad pitches and drive the strikes (which incidentally is also why they often strike out more, since they will more often take the strikes they can't drive).
At the youth level, IME, big (size), fast hitters are rare. Pre-puberty, the bigger kids seem to also often be clumsier/slower. A lot of the taller kids start catching up speed-wise once the clumsy faze wears off (I know that appears to be happening with my 13U son).
IME, coaches don't generally care about OBP at the youth level. They're looking for results swinging, and mechanics/approach at the plate secondarily, at least at tryouts.
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TAZ980002
831 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2012 : 20:59:09
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| If the big hitter is slow, forget it. He's a liability on the bases unless he hits a home run. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2012 : 08:16:45
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quote:
Originally posted by baseball1964
I have always heard that if you can hit there is always a place for you on a team. Is that really true? I know a great young man that is a man child and can crush (free swinger)the baseball but, is a liability on the field. His primary position is 1st base. Strong arm and weak glove. There is another terrific young man that knows the strike zone but does not have power. He will single you and double toy to death! great glove and average arm. Utility player but primary is 3rd or SS. Will the singles hitter ever make a majors team? Will the big bat ever drop down to AAA? By the way, both boys pitch. Everyone has to fill a need and all situations are different and I understand that. If you can have one as an everyday player....who do you pick??
Based on this original post, I take the kid who can play SS AND hit. No one ever said if you can hit home runs, they will find a spot for you. Sounds like the good glove SS can hit as well, just not out of the park. I'll take him any day of the week. |
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Newbie BB Mom
141 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2012 : 08:23:59
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quote:
Originally posted by jacjacatk
At the youth level (say 12U and under), the guys who can hit have higher OBPs, because the majority of the walks are the "fault" of the pitchers and good hitters will put the strikes in play and bad hitters won't while everyone walks a lot. The exceptions are generally the really free swingers, who either end up missing a lot and having terrible OBPs or making a lot of contact which tends to lead to being on base a fair bit anyway when reached-on-error is accounted for. At the major league level, OBP often (but not always) correlates with power because the best hitters tend to lay off bad pitches and drive the strikes (which incidentally is also why they often strike out more, since they will more often take the strikes they can't drive).
At the youth level, IME, big (size), fast hitters are rare. Pre-puberty, the bigger kids seem to also often be clumsier/slower. A lot of the taller kids start catching up speed-wise once the clumsy faze wears off (I know that appears to be happening with my 13U son).
IME, coaches don't generally care about OBP at the youth level. They're looking for results swinging, and mechanics/approach at the plate secondarily, at least at tryouts.
Thanks jacjacatk, that explains some of what I'm seeing at 9U.
My son is a big hitter, which is great obviously. But to my mind, his best asset is his baserunning. He's preternaturally fast and a very smart base runner. He really stands out when he's playing in a game. We've had opposing coaches and even umps compliment him (and us) on his baserunning.
But, I'm not sure how prospective coaches can see that asset in a tryout. In his last, private tryout, in terms of offense, the coaches seemed only interested in whether he could hit in a batting cage. They did not time his running or watch him run the bases.
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TOPDOG
92 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2012 : 11:07:22
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@newbie bb mom
How does your child play defensively and what positions? |
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Dr. Old School
314 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2012 : 09:40:27
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From many years of experience watching this exact scenario play out, I can definitively say that 9 times out of 10 coaches will take the hitter over the fielder. The philosophy seems to be "I can work on his defense easier than I can teach a kid to hit with more power or average." He does not have to make good plays, he just has to keep from hurting them defensively.
If you can't hit, you will struggle getting playing time. When I say hit, I mean hit with enough power to scream the gaps at least. You don't necessarily have to hit homeruns all the time.
If you have a kid that plays really good defense, but does not have the power to hit the ball to the fence consistently, I would be getting them additional hitting work. |
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baseball1964
5 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2012 : 17:21:45
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| Thanks for all the feedback. Our team is a 13U AA team that has several kids that can hit bullets to the gap but not the power to hit the home run. They all are very defensively sound. Our big power hitting first baseman with the questionable glove was offered an opportunity to play for a very well known 13 Majors team. I wish this young man luck on the bigger field but I believe those long ball he crushed last year (and all things being equal) will now be long fly ball outs. We will continue to work with the team on hitting and strength exercises but, we are sitting back and waiting to see how puberty treats these young men. Maybe one, ore several will become our power hitters with a great glove. A bonus! |
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Who do you take the better hitter or fielder???
