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Hurricane
351 Posts |
 Posted - 11/09/2011 : 16:24:22
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| Has anyone been associated with a family member being burn out with baseball? I always hear about it. If so what age and what were the circumstances for it. Was the player having success. Were there warning signs. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2011 : 17:52:27
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| We haven't yet, but I know a kid that decided not to play his senior year of HS. Was one of 2 catchers as a junior and would have been the starter as a senior. I didn't see any signs, but wasn't around him much by then. I talked to others who said they never saw it coming. I know I was shocked. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2011 : 19:24:56
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You see it happen alot at high school. When a kid may spend an entire season with practice 4-5 days a week with one to two games and they have 10 AB's at season's end. Many kids at that point give it up. That's a good reason for teaching these kids at 12u and up that there is bench time. I see so many threads about only carrying 11 players and keeping everyone happy, but the sooner that the child and parents learn that the cold hard reality is that performance plays, the better.
I know of 4 kids from my son's high school team last season that are not planning to return. |
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a1prog
164 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2011 : 21:24:18
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I think it starts after age 12. at that point travel ball is gearing up to get kids ready for high school. as bases gravitate to 60/90 it is true that the game slows- but the practice intensity and working out to prep for high school rises significantly (at least it should on a well coached team). some kids dont want to put the time in. thats ok.
then when a kid gets to high school its not about competing with your specific age group for a slot. its about competing with kids older and as you rise younger. the competiton level heats up. and lo and behold we find that many a high school coach is a real jackass in terms of how they treat the kids. some kids make it and some dont. some of those that do not get enough pt simply choose to walk away. the time spent in practice and working out (generally year round) isnt worth what they get out of it. again- nothing wrong with making that call.
as high school kids get older multiple things occur and the "two fumes" can be a tremendous influencer; perfume and car fumes. yeah that can get to some kids. priorities change for some kids. in addition, some kids walk because they want to play college baseball and maybe they dont see that happening so they question the time and effort being put in. bballman and i have known each other for years and our sons have played together for 4 years now on the same summer team (congrats to bballman's son, little bball, on his college signing). this fall we have seen some kids drop from summer ball because playing in college, for whatever the reason, simply dropped off their radar. and these are good ballplayers who have been and will continue to be varsity starters at 5A programs.
i dont know that there are any specific "warning signs". but i do know this- no way should a kid be playing 80-100 games a year. i have always said and will maintain that travel ball can burn a kid because they play way too much. how can anyone expect a pre high school and high school kid to play as many games, or more, as a collegiate athlete. its absurd. so my best advice is this- dont play too late into the summer prior to age 16/17. take 4-6 weeks OFF at the end of the summer. work out easily if at all during the fall (until you get to 16/17 and then going to showcase type events and camps becomes a big deal if your son wants to play in college).
may be some points folks disagree with here but these are my experiences as a dad and former coach. |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2011 : 07:31:19
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quote:
Originally posted by in_the_know
...but the sooner that the child and parents learn that the cold hard reality is that performance plays, the better....
Based on this reasoning, every team should carry 20 players like the JV and HS teams do and have kids go through a 40 game season and get 10 at bats. That will teach them the cold hard reality.
Would it really have been better for the kids referenced in this thread to quit when they were 12 when they were in High School?
They're kids playing baseball. If there are a couple of more years of fun out there, let them have it. They are going to spend a lot more years not playing than they do playing. |
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christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2011 : 08:20:36
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| My oldest really started getting burned out at 16 after his first year of playing Legion Ball... He was getting the playing time, but he really missed his summer break. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2011 : 10:46:04
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Sure, you can go to that extreme, but I didn't suggest that at all.
I'm commenting specifically on the mindset that many parents have that their child shouldn't sit more than 2-3 innings a tournamnet. That's not the reality of where they are headed if they want to play at a competitive level. They can play rec level in a system where rules dictate that nobody sits twice before everyone sits once, etc., but the reality of this site is that it's mostly competitive travel players who aspire to progress to the next level. The reality of that progression is that it becomes perform to play. There is an injustice done to kids by never subjecting them to this until they hit the 14u and above level. Many can't handle it and quit as a result. They don't know how to be a role player. They haven't been trained to do so. We train and develop these kids at every other aspect of the game, but become "offended" if they get exposed to bench time. Then, when the reality of it hits them, they can't handle it and quit. I've seen it first hand in the past and am witnessing it again now. It's a reality.
You suggest that I think players should quit at 12. I didn't state that at all, that's your comment. I merely suggest that you prepare the players for this reality so that they don't quit when they're 15.
quote:
Originally posted by AllStar
quote:
Originally posted by in_the_know
...but the sooner that the child and parents learn that the cold hard reality is that performance plays, the better....
Based on this reasoning, every team should carry 20 players like the JV and HS teams do and have kids go through a 40 game season and get 10 at bats. That will teach them the cold hard reality.
Would it really have been better for the kids referenced in this thread to quit when they were 12 when they were in High School?
They're kids playing baseball. If there are a couple of more years of fun out there, let them have it. They are going to spend a lot more years not playing than they do playing.
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2011 : 10:52:40
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And to the original post, there is a difference between ability/boredom and burnout. Alot of kids quit shortly after playing 60/90 because:
A. Difficulty transitioning to the larger field
B. Speed of game decreases significantly.
Some simply can't transition to the larger field and others become bored with the pace of play. I don't consider that burnout. That's merely quitting because it isn't the same game they once knew. I consider burnout coming as a result of playing/practicing too much, and as I mentioned in my OP, see it alot in HS because of the shift that occurs where there is far more practice required for game time innings played vs. travel where there are far more game time innings played than there are practice hours. |
Edited by - in_the_know on 11/10/2011 10:53:29 |
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beanball
222 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2011 : 11:28:12
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Can someone please explain what they mean by the speed of the game, and how it "decreases"?
In my opinion the game gets faster. Pitching gets faster, bat speed gets faster, foot speed is required to compete at the higher levels.
If you mean the game takes longer to play, that is not the case either. I've seen full 7 inning games played in under an hour 45 minutes.
Are the games lower scoring? Yes. But the play is better and the skills required to compete at the elite level is great.
Anyone that has played pro ball will tell you the game at that level is faster than you can imagine. |
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ChinMusic
126 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2011 : 11:30:45
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No magic bullet here... Priorities shift for many as they get to the high school years... Other interests, girls, need for $$, wanting a car, realization that high school is as far as some go, etc. We tried to avoid year-round baseball and burnout by playing multiple sports. In the end, it must remain fun to keep up the amount of time required to play travel ball.
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2011 : 12:34:07
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I know this. In my son's freshman year, his HS team had enough kids to field a freshman team, have several kids on JV exclusively and two play varsity and JV. I think there were around 16 freshmen total that year. This year, his senior year, there will be 5 or 6 still playing. I think one more is giving it up between junior and senior year. Of those 5 that are still playing, 4 will be starters and one will probably be a role player. And that one guy has stated that if he doesn't start, he is quitting. Not sure he'll do that, but that's what he was saying for a while. The numbers definetely get lower as the years go on.
I'm not sure how many of them quit due to burnout or the factors that ChinMusic and in the know are talking about, but it happens. Also, of the 5 still playing, as of this time (early NCAA signing period), only one has committed to play in college. The one role player is definetely not going to the next level. The other three have a shot. One of them probably would have already signed, but had shoulder surgery in June and missed all summer and fall and is just now starting a throwing program. If he has a good Senior season and recovers fully from surgery, someone will definetely pick him up. Another is working very hard at finding a place and I am confident will wind up somewhere and the 3rd, I'm not real sure about. He might or might not wind up somewhere at the next level.
Obviously, there are a lot of factors that go into why the numbers dwindle as the kids get older. I think maybe some kids say they are burned out when they really just realize the game has passed them by. Some kids may say they are burned out when it's really the other interests that overshadow baseball that causes it. You would really have to be in the head of the player to figure it out sometimes.
The best you can do is keep the game fun for your player for as long as you can. Winning and losing isn't everything. Everyone has bad games. However, part of what makes it fun is being good, so lessons and practice are important. Between the ages of 15-18, if you want to play either varsity or at the next level, you must take it seriously and work hard to get better and get seen. Before that, remember, it's just a game and kids are playing because they like it. If they stop liking it, back off. Let them get their bearings and get back into it on their own. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2011 : 12:37:48
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The come from 5 runs down becomes almost non-existent. The 6-7 run innings goes away. Much like the transition from coach pitch to kid pitch changes the amount of offense and, hence "speed" of the game, the overall pace of a game really slows compared to the younger ages. At the younger ages, it isn't at all unexpected to see some of the best teams play to a 12-10 final, you rarely see that at the older ages. A blowout is a 6-1 ball game.
I completely agree with what you say regarding athletic speed, pitching speed, bat speed, etc., but from an excitement of high scoring games, huge come from behind wins, etc., the pace slows greatly. Now consider the brain process of the kids who have grown up in the instant gratification, download and watch a movie on demand, microwave, twitter, PS3/xbox generation, they lose interest quickly unless they have a great passion for the game and an appreciation of the nuances and excitement in a 2-1 nine inning game.
quote:
Originally posted by beanball
Can someone please explain what they mean by the speed of the game, and how it "decreases"?
In my opinion the game gets faster. Pitching gets faster, bat speed gets faster, foot speed is required to compete at the higher levels.
If you mean the game takes longer to play, that is not the case either. I've seen full 7 inning games played in under an hour 45 minutes.
Are the games lower scoring? Yes. But the play is better and the skills required to compete at the elite level is great.
Anyone that has played pro ball will tell you the game at that level is faster than you can imagine.
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bball2008
100 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2011 : 14:08:49
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All very good points. Girls, cars, spending money, parties etc. are clearly the most popular reasons for kids deciding to move on.
Here are a few others not mentioned that I have seen over the past 6 years where some parents used the "burnout" factor as an excuse for quitting:
1)Kids that were mashers at the young ages but then can't adjust to hitting quality offspeed stuff at 15u and up
2)Kids that hit puberty before everyone else and dominated at 10-13u and then quit because they no longer are the top of the food chain at the older ages and can't accept it
3) The larger(heavyset) kids that hit bombs on 200ft fields and were heralded only to find that they don't fit in well on a 60/90 field
I also see one of the detriments to playing 80-100 games at an early age is not so much overuse but that when they hit HS and have to practice 4-5 days/week to play only 2 games/week is almost a culture shock. Then throw in the additional private lessons and to some it seems like a job. |
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blowinsmoke
61 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2011 : 14:10:38
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| It happens a lot in high school , when they get introduced to Budweiser and sex..baseball isn't a priority then |
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SSBuckeye
575 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2011 : 15:03:31
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| Can't agree with in_the_know on this one. At 11-12, you're not worried about teaching kids to be role players. You're worried about improving their skills and keeping the game fun. The best way to do that is on the field. You'll have more kids quit the sport by the end of HS, because the kid who blooms late will get run from the sport at 11 or 12. He'll never get the chance to taste the success he craves. The kids who quit at 16 are going to quit whether you have role players at an earlier age, or not. I agree that by the time they get to the bigger field, you need to expand your roster and by definition you will need to move to a more high school like approach. But for the good of the kids and the game, we need to hold off on that as long as we can. |
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beanball
222 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2011 : 15:27:51
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quote:
Originally posted by in_the_know
The come from 5 runs down becomes almost non-existent. The 6-7 run innings goes away. Much like the transition from coach pitch to kid pitch changes the amount of offense and, hence "speed" of the game, the overall pace of a game really slows compared to the younger ages. At the younger ages, it isn't at all unexpected to see some of the best teams play to a 12-10 final, you rarely see that at the older ages. A blowout is a 6-1 ball game.
I completely agree with what you say regarding athletic speed, pitching speed, bat speed, etc., but from an excitement of high scoring games, huge come from behind wins, etc., the pace slows greatly. Now consider the brain process of the kids who have grown up in the instant gratification, download and watch a movie on demand, microwave, twitter, PS3/xbox generation, they lose interest quickly unless they have a great passion for the game and an appreciation of the nuances and excitement in a 2-1 nine inning game.
quote:
Originally posted by beanball
Can someone please explain what they mean by the speed of the game, and how it "decreases"?
In my opinion the game gets faster. Pitching gets faster, bat speed gets faster, foot speed is required to compete at the higher levels.
If you mean the game takes longer to play, that is not the case either. I've seen full 7 inning games played in under an hour 45 minutes.
Are the games lower scoring? Yes. But the play is better and the skills required to compete at the elite level is great.
Anyone that has played pro ball will tell you the game at that level is faster than you can imagine.
I agree that the pace of the game can slow but the coaches my sons have played for really get on the pitchers to work rapidly and quicken the tempo of the game. It keeps the defense engaged and focused. Also throwing strikes help keep the pace faster. I can't imagine someone involved is a game to say its too slow.
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2011 : 18:08:10
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Read my post. I specifically stated at 12u and UP. Not 11u and below. 12u is a great age to begin expanding rosters and start cycling all players with some bench time. You guys need to read what I write and not what you want to see. I never suggested going to 20 players on a roster, nor did I suggest below 12. I also didn't suggest that you start sitting kids 4 innings every game. But carrying a roster of 11, batting them all, and cycling kids off the field 2-3 innings a tournament isn't doing anything to prepare them for one of the harshest realities, that as this post suggests, drives kids away from the game.
Carrying 12-13 kids doesn't end the world. If a kid can't develop and still have fun while sitting out 5-6 innings in a tourney, then they'll be the first to give it up when they hit the pine the next couple of years. Again, this comment (and you can read that many others have the same experience) comes from my personal observation of having one gone through and another in high school ball.
Believe me, I'm fine with you not agreeing with me, I'm not trying to convince you to my way of thinking, but at least get what I wrote correct.
quote:
Originally posted by SSBuckeye
Can't agree with in_the_know on this one. At 11-12, you're not worried about teaching kids to be role players. You're worried about improving their skills and keeping the game fun. The best way to do that is on the field. You'll have more kids quit the sport by the end of HS, because the kid who blooms late will get run from the sport at 11 or 12. He'll never get the chance to taste the success he craves. The kids who quit at 16 are going to quit whether you have role players at an earlier age, or not. I agree that by the time they get to the bigger field, you need to expand your roster and by definition you will need to move to a more high school like approach. But for the good of the kids and the game, we need to hold off on that as long as we can.
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SSBuckeye
575 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2011 : 20:37:49
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| You should probably re-read what I wrote. |
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DecaturDad
619 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2011 : 10:27:46
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| I quick thank you to all of you with older kids for sharing some advice. My son is 12u, so we have a long way to go. I love reading these posts so I have some idea what to expect:-) |
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RACGOFAR
208 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2011 : 14:39:00
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I'm not so sure that burnout, as we all generally would define that term, is really that big of a factor in the player attrition as our kids get older. Simply put, there is not enough sugar for the nickel for most players to try and compete at the highest level as they turn 14.
To play HS and College ball, you need to have Academics, Attitude and Ability. Coupled with those three things is the desire to work hard at developing your body and mind and improving your fundamental game in the way your HS coach wants it done. Even with all that, its extremely hard to get playing time because the lion's share of playing time will always go to the hitters and the flame throwers.
It only gets tougher to play at higher and higher levels and the kids you see excelling and getting that time I guarantee are working their butts off. And that is the key. You don't know what a 14 yr old kid is going to look like when he's 17. Work hard and keep up the attitude and academics and look at HS as a 4 year chance to get better and be a part of something really meaningful, regardless of your role. Your chance will come if you do those things.
My oldest is a 5A Sr PO this coming year and a good example of what can happen to a player who maybe lacks the showcase skills when they are younger. He did not start playing travel until he was 13 and never above the AA level and was not a dominant pitcher or player. He did not throw hard, but threw strikes at the knees 65-70% of the time. Saw limited innings in 9th and JV, but he kept at it.
He made Varsity last year and logged 2/3 of an inning. Because of attrition and all the other things mentioned in this thread, he's slowly climbed the depth chart. He threw more innings in summer ball and Fall ball this year than he did the last three years. All of a sudden, he has a fresh arm where many on the roster have sore ones. He's gotten stronger and taller and now his fastball has a little more zip on it. He can spot the fb and his secondary pitches wherever he wants. He's spent the last three years working up to this season to be ready to take on a big role if the opportunity arises.
Sure he would have liked to have played more, and sure I would have liked to have seen him play more. I watched a lot more games where he did not play than when he did. But he has never complained about that because his coach has always been honest about where he stood and what he needed to do to compete. It was way worth it from my point of view b/c he has been so busy with classwork and baseball that he has had little time to get into trouble or fall i with the wrong crowd.
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jongamefan
218 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2011 : 20:46:37
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quote:
Originally posted by bball2008
All very good points. Girls, cars, spending money, parties etc. are clearly the most popular reasons for kids deciding to move on.
Here are a few others not mentioned that I have seen over the past 6 years where some parents used the "burnout" factor as an excuse for quitting:
1)Kids that were mashers at the young ages but then can't adjust to hitting quality offspeed stuff at 15u and up
2)Kids that hit puberty before everyone else and dominated at 10-13u and then quit because they no longer are the top of the food chain at the older ages and can't accept it
3) The larger(heavyset) kids that hit bombs on 200ft fields and were heralded only to find that they don't fit in well on a 60/90 field
I also see one of the detriments to playing 80-100 games at an early age is not so much overuse but that when they hit HS and have to practice 4-5 days/week to play only 2 games/week is almost a culture shock. Then throw in the additional private lessons and to some it seems like a job.
So can i add another common cause o "burnout ":
Kid might been bigger than most at earlier ages and was treated as if a future big-time impact player :
now hes actual one of the smaller players and shows obvious difficulties hitting the ball out of a regulation sized infield ! |
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gasbag
281 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2011 : 07:43:04
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| Just wondering if perhaps some of the "Burnout" isn't do to us parents lack of excitement and participation as the kids grow and age ? How many of us still ask our 15 or 16 or 17 year olds just to go out and play catch ? Like when the lads were 5 or 6......how many of us still race to get out of work to hit the lad a bucket of balls ? Maybe they see our lack of passion reduce or change and they follow suit only naturally. I still ask and get asked to throw the ball with my lad...I can't throw it nearly as far, nearly as fast and I fear for my life when he throws hard or if we throw at dusk as my aging eyes and shoulders and everything else just plain HURTS....but, I'd sacrifice everything I have just to throw that dang old ball with my son ! Nothing in the world like playing catch with your pops....maybe fishing or hunting w/ him but I'm just saying.... |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2011 : 09:44:04
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quote:
Originally posted by gasbag
Just wondering if perhaps some of the "Burnout" isn't do to us parents lack of excitement and participation as the kids grow and age ? How many of us still ask our 15 or 16 or 17 year olds just to go out and play catch ? Like when the lads were 5 or 6......how many of us still race to get out of work to hit the lad a bucket of balls ? Maybe they see our lack of passion reduce or change and they follow suit only naturally. I still ask and get asked to throw the ball with my lad...I can't throw it nearly as far, nearly as fast and I fear for my life when he throws hard or if we throw at dusk as my aging eyes and shoulders and everything else just plain HURTS....but, I'd sacrifice everything I have just to throw that dang old ball with my son ! Nothing in the world like playing catch with your pops....maybe fishing or hunting w/ him but I'm just saying....
My son (16U) and I still go to the park a couple of times a week in the off season, especially as he gets close to tryouts or if the travel team isn't practicing much. He is just doing strength and conditioning until mid-December, but we'll get back out on the field so that he can pitch and hit and take about 75-100 grounders.
The only difference is I wear a mask and cup now when he works off the mound.
And when we're done he drives to his girlfriend's instead of us driving to Brusters.  |
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Hurricane
351 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2011 : 14:13:59
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I doubt any kid at 16 or 17 year old wants to go out and throw with dad, unless it's just for the sake of dad. They rather go out with a team mate and throw or workout. Most kids would rather their parents not show up so they don't have to hear about something they did in the game or have to worry about not being themselves in a game or letting the F bomb fly or something.
I think it's "nothing in the world like playing catch with your son" not the other way around. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2011 : 14:27:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Hurricane
I doubt any kid at 16 or 17 year old wants to go out and throw with dad, unless it's just for the sake of dad. They rather go out with a team mate and throw or workout. Most kids would rather their parents not show up so they don't have to hear about something they did in the game or have to worry about not being themselves in a game or letting the F bomb fly or something.
I think it's "nothing in the world like playing catch with your son" not the other way around.
I agree with that. I will encourage my son to go throw with teammates. I think it is more fun for him AND it's better for my body. I think bballson going out to throw with good ole dad too much would be more of a negative.
Don't get me wrong. I will go out and throw with him from time to time if he can't find someone else. I will still catch a bullpen for him if I can't find a catcher and he really needs to do one. He doesn't mind and I don't either. There have been times that he and a teammate will ask me to hit them some ground balls, although my back will kill me when we're done, I will still do it. But, by and large, I try to encourage them to do it on their own. If they are not motivated by that age to do it on their own, they probably don't have it in them to get to the next level anyway.
My son will be off playing college ball next fall. He better learn now that good ole dad won't be there and it will all be on him to do what he needs. I feel like I need to get him more prepared for that than to be out throwing with him. |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2011 : 23:10:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Hurricane
I doubt any kid at 16 or 17 year old wants to go out and throw with dad, unless it's just for the sake of dad. They rather go out with a team mate and throw or workout. Most kids would rather their parents not show up so they don't have to hear about something they did in the game or have to worry about not being themselves in a game or letting the F bomb fly or something.
I think it's "nothing in the world like playing catch with your son" not the other way around.
I am sure that I will miss it more than he will when it ends, but I don't offer any advice, I just keep my mouth shut and catch or hit.
Occasionally comment if he does something especially well. He's got (good) coaches.
Also, if I do say so myself, once I quit coaching I have done a great job just sitting in the stands and cheering for his team and otherwise keeping my mouth shut. Life would have been easier if the parents on the teams I coached had done the same. |
Edited by - AllStar on 11/15/2011 08:22:06 |
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Burnout anyone been associated with it first hand
