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campo
5 Posts |
 Posted - 10/24/2011 : 09:55:08
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If you had the power to make changes in the travel ball circuit for kids U-8 to U-13, what would it be?
I would limit the number of games per season to 50.
I would put more emphasis on practicing fundamentals.
I would limit the pitches per game.
I would limit the number of teams allowed to play on per overlapping period of time.
I would not allow a pitcher to pitch more than once per day.
I would institute a safe guard against back to back days pitching based on number of pitches thrown the day before.
I would educate coaches/parents more on stressing the importance of "the basics of the game" as well as the health of the player's arm.
Travel ball is great for kids and I see the benefit from playing. But, there is a downside to the way it is run at times. I would be curious as to opinions of others. Do you agree with me on the changes I would like to see? Do you have your own thoughts of changes you would like to see? |
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SSBuckeye
575 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2011 : 12:37:43
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My thoughts:
I would limit the number of games per season to 50. ====> I don't believe this is practical or necessary
I would put more emphasis on practicing fundamentals. ====> Totally agree, but impossible to legislate
I would limit the pitches per game. ====> 100% agree. USSSA and other organizations need to step up here. I see kid's arms getting destroyed every weekend
I would limit the number of teams allowed to play on per overlapping period of time. ====> Not exactly sure what you're going for here
I would not allow a pitcher to pitch more than once per day. ====> Understand the logic, but I think enforcing a strict pitch count would be all you need
I would institute a safe guard against back to back days pitching based on number of pitches thrown the day before. ====> I can see that. We've done that in our rec leagues
I would educate coaches/parents more on stressing the importance of "the basics of the game" as well as the health of the player's arm. ====> Again, totally agree but difficult to legislate |
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Jack-of-Diamonds
152 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2011 : 12:50:24
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With regards to USSSA and their lack of roster requirements for Fall, I would insist on rosters and correct classifications for non-Open Fall tournaments.
If you want to play a AA or AAA tournament, then you should belong in that class and be willing to show that you do. Teams that don't want to post a roster for Fall should be classed strictly as "Open" until Spring and be limited to Open tournaments in the Fall, and there are plenty of them.
Way too much shenanigans going on this time of year. I understand teams lose players to football in the Fall, but your returning AAA team stacked with borrowed Majors players has no business in a AA tournament. |
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ramman999
241 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2011 : 13:37:00
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quote:
Originally posted by campo
If you had the power to make changes in the travel ball circuit for kids U-8 to U-13, what would it be?
I would limit the number of games per season to 50.
Most full time teams play 20-25 games in the fall alone - a 2 tournament a month schedule in the spring is well over 40 games.. This to me is a minimum a travel ball team will play - leave it to the teams to police the # of games they play - the organizations award points and make money, so it is not in their best interest to keep teams from playing - join a team with a schedule acceptable to you.
quote:
Originally posted by campo
I would put more emphasis on practicing fundamentals.
Parents can police that - they are the customer, so make sure this is what your team practices, otherwise leave and go somewhere that does.
quote:
Originally posted by campo
I would limit the pitches per game.
No argument here - forces teams to develop pitching, not ride an 11 year old into tommy john surgery by the time they hit high school
quote:
Originally posted by campo
I would limit the number of teams allowed to play on per overlapping period of time.
Not sure what this means, but I assume you mean not letting teams play weekly - once again, team prerogative - hopefully when the teams schedule out their season they hit the right mix of off and on weeks.
quote:
Originally posted by campo
I would not allow a pitcher to pitch more than once per day.
See pitch limits
quote:
Originally posted by campo
I would institute a safe guard against back to back days pitching based on number of pitches thrown the day before.
See pitch limits
quote:
Originally posted by campo
I would educate coaches/parents more on stressing the importance of "the basics of the game" as well as the health of the player's arm.
You seem pretty hung up on the pitching aspect - why not restrict breaking pitches, limiting your pitchers from playing infield, outfield or catching on pitching days too..
The responsibility of protecting little Johnny's arm rests with the parents AND the coaches.. As a parent, you have the ultimate say in protecting your childs arm. The responsibility for development falls on the coaches AND the parents - chose the right team, and make sure you have the right coaching, and most of your issues listed take care of themselves. |
Edited by - ramman999 on 10/24/2011 16:38:22 |
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campo
5 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2011 : 14:33:53
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Buckeye, I realize some of my ideas would be hard if not impossible to implement. I guess a better way to put it would have been "if you had a magic wand".
As far as limiting the number of games.....I used 50 games as a way to ensure giving pitchers a rest. How many games does a child under the age of 13 need to play? They should be a kid and try all the sports. Obviously, as a kid gets older and focused on the sport, the more games played the more experience and exposure he will get.
By limiting the number of teams they are playing for at one time would help prevent overuse of pitchers. There is no reason for a young pitcher to throw 5-8 innings every week virtually year round.
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Peanutsr
171 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2011 : 14:42:27
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I would insist that the government redirect tarp funds to pay for my son's next four years of travel ball. (including hotels, gas, meals.................. tarps)
We could change the name from travel ball to Obamaball.
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HITANDRUN
436 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2011 : 14:55:38
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I would limit travel to the elite players and teams. Others would play in rec leagues until school is out then start a travel type select league for the best players similar to all stars. Bring back some of the better kids to the rec programs and save some darn money. Travel is tearing up arms because kids are pitching 2 innings here then the next day pitching 2 innings here then maybe one more inning then they get a free inning later. I say stick with a pitch count and/ or innings, and only allow kids to pitch in one game or back to back games on the same day. If you pitch on Friday you are done for the tournament. If you pitch on Saturday done. No multiple days pitching.
As far as "the basics of the game" rec programs would be a great place to work on switch hitting or fundamentals. Travel baseball is to win and face the best competition out there. AAA travel is similar to what you would get playing very good rec allstars. AA is average to weak rec allstars. I mean before everyone ran to travel baseball. |
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TAZ980002
831 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2011 : 15:28:40
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quote:
Originally posted by campo
If you had the power to make changes in the travel ball circuit for kids U-8 to U-13, what would it be?
I would limit the number of games per season to 50.
I would put more emphasis on practicing fundamentals.
I would limit the pitches per game.
I would limit the number of teams allowed to play on per overlapping period of time.
I would not allow a pitcher to pitch more than once per day.
I would institute a safe guard against back to back days pitching based on number of pitches thrown the day before.
I would educate coaches/parents more on stressing the importance of "the basics of the game" as well as the health of the player's arm.
Travel ball is great for kids and I see the benefit from playing. But, there is a downside to the way it is run at times. I would be curious as to opinions of others. Do you agree with me on the changes I would like to see? Do you have your own thoughts of changes you would like to see?
Campo, I agree that there are some things that would be good changes but you are sounding a little bit too much like a liberal democrat here. We as parents still have to take responsibility for our children. Travel baseball is very competitive at times and more suited for the kids that thrive on facing those challenges.
One change I would definitely welcome though is a pitch count limit. |
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Dr. Old School
314 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2011 : 16:25:51
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| I would put a cap on the number of players allowed on a roster. 14 max. Team could not carry "Safety Net" players just in case they needed them. Make teams use all their players. Kid's don't need to be PO's before late in HS. |
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coachdoug
50 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2011 : 17:11:42
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Where would things be today if all of the rec parks/programs just changed the "draft" rules so teams could be formed and develop consistency season over season?
What if there was "A/AA/AAA" classification in the rec programs where this aligned to the number of frozen/returning players on their roster season over season. 'A' would be like it is today in rec with open drafts for each team each season, 'AA' teams have X number of frozen players, 'AAA' has a few more frozen players, and so on. How many travel teams exist today based on summer All Star teams? They'd be able to stay in park rather than have no option but to leave for travel today because they'd be broken apart in the rec system next season.
I see this as the single biggest thing driving players out of rec programs to travel programs along with 'competition'. To address the "lack of competition" gripe, break the rec park/program elitism and develop inter-park/program leagues where one park's "AA" teams play league games against another parks "AA" teams, etc. They could all play a league schedule of 20-30 games then feed into a championship tournament at the end of the season.
Maybe they call it quits for the season then, maybe they play in some city/county level thing or just go play some travel tournaments when done, but I bet they'd be a better, more prepared and competitive team when they played something like this than if they just put a new team together and jumped into travel like most do today. (I know my first year team would have been!)
Could USSSA, Dizzy Dean, Pony, LL, Babe Ruth, or others step up and put something like that together? Could rec parks/programs "break the mold" and step out on their own to do something in-between rec and travel today?
My $.02.
Doug |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2011 : 18:13:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Old School
Make teams use all their players.
Love it. I managed to coach 3 years and never had a game where everybody didn't play at least one inning in the field.
No, I never won a world championship, but that's OK.
I wouldn't have any travel ball before 12, but that's really a personal call, I wouldn't legislate that. If people want to spend their money and time that way, it's (still) a free country. Until about 12, though, don't kid yourself, it's the parents' decision, not the players'.
We played 47, 54 and 57 games at 11, 12 and 13 respectively. That was plenty.
I like 3 practices for every game until school is out, then reverse that.
We always ended on July 4 weekend.
Can't legislate any of that, but my player reached his goal and still loves the game. Everybody on my 12 and 13 YO teams is on their respective HS team.
It was a decent model. Could have been better. Could have been a LOT worse. |
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campo
5 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2011 : 21:22:18
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Ramman999,
Yes, to a degree I'm hung up on the pitching aspect. Because I see that as the biggest potential problem for kids down the road. You are absolutely right about the ultimate responsibility of little Johnny's arm rests with the parents and coaches. But, what about when you have ignorant coaches/parents who either get caught up in the "win now" atmosphere or really don't know about the ramifications of overpitching down the road.
This past season I saw a kid throw four innings (probably about 65 pitches). Came back a few hours later and threw another three innings. Guess who wanted him to pitch? His parents. Guess who allowed him to pitch? The coach
Bandit_Hawk,
Liberal Democrat?...I try not to bring politics into sports. I don't disagree with your statement that I should be taking responsibilities for my child. Please see above paragraph as an example of some in travel ball who do not.
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DecaturDad
619 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2011 : 21:42:55
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quote:
Originally posted by AllStar
I wouldn't have any travel ball before 12, but that's really a personal call, I wouldn't legislate that. If people want to spend their money and time that way, it's (still) a free country. Until about 12, though, don't kid yourself, it's the parents' decision, not the players'.
All-star, I have to disagree that playing travel is just the parent's decision. I see it as both. We left the local rec park for travel because my son was afraid to throw to most of his team mates. It was his choice to leave, with my guidance. Last year, at 11u, he was 5'10" 180 pounds. How many of his rec ball team mates would have wanted to pitch to him? There would have been no challenge, and he would never have improved.
We also would have missed all the great weekends together. Going to the local park for one game a weekend, just would not have been the same. We do that for other sports, but baseball is where we will have the memories.
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TAZ980002
831 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2011 : 22:27:09
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| Just an analogy Campo. Not saying you were trying to bring politics into it. |
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coachdan06
433 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2011 : 01:47:45
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CAMPO : my 2 cents is that the dads need to be out of the dugout and off the field once high school year ages begin for travel
never turns out good - even if fairness is given to everyone . all the decisions about coaches sons will be talked about an criticised over and over .
then your on a team that turns over an starts over every year |
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ramman999
241 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2011 : 06:20:53
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quote:
Originally posted by campo
This past season I saw a kid throw four innings (probably about 65 pitches). Came back a few hours later and threw another three innings. Guess who wanted him to pitch? His parents. Guess who allowed him to pitch? The coach
See that is just criminal.. All this is supposed to be getting our kids ready for high school ball. Keep it real simple - 50 pitches per kid. Some probably can go further, but why? at 15 pitches an inning, you would be able to throw 8 kids and keep them all under 50 pitches - that to me is development, not riding 4 or 5 kids until they require surgery.. |
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wareagle
324 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2011 : 07:54:24
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quote:
quote:
I see this as the single biggest thing driving players out of rec programs to travel programs along with 'competition'. To address the "lack of competition" gripe, break the rec park/program elitism and develop inter-park/program leagues where one park's "AA" teams play league games against another parks "AA" teams, etc. They could all play a league schedule of 20-30 games then feed into a championship tournament at the end of the season. quote:
My son does not play football, but aren't some rec departments doing something like this for football? |
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SSBuckeye
575 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2011 : 08:57:19
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| I think folks who want to keep AA kids out of travel ball need to get over themselves. I've yet to hear one compelling reason for it. It's usually major-level parents who think travel ball is reserved for their little phenom, while little Jimmy down the road who isn't half the player should not be allowed to say he plays travel baseball. The fact is there's room enough for everyone. Let a team start as an A or AA team. The next season they improve and play high AA, low AAA. The following season they are a solid AAA team. Isn't that what travel baseball is all about? That's a great success story. Why would we want to stop it? I guarantee that some of the best HS kids started out on one of those AA teams. |
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outlaweagle
27 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2011 : 09:58:10
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CoachDan you hit the nail on the head. Dads simply do not need to be coaching once they get to 15U. From our experience this fall we have some dad coaches that are really nice guys but are coaching 15U's like they are 9 - 12 U's. Not a good situation at all. I have learned my lesson the hard way. Will following advice from another topic on this board I saw a few weeks ago moving forward. Watch the prospective team practice and play in a game before committing to the team.
quote:
Originally posted by coachdan06
CAMPO : my 2 cents is that the dads need to be out of the dugout and off the field once high school year ages begin for travel
never turns out good - even if fairness is given to everyone . all the decisions about coaches sons will be talked about an criticised over and over .
then your on a team that turns over an starts over every year
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Edited by - outlaweagle on 10/25/2011 10:07:59 |
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Mad1
252 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2011 : 10:18:16
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quote:
Originally posted by wareagle
quote:
quote:
I see this as the single biggest thing driving players out of rec programs to travel programs along with 'competition'. To address the "lack of competition" gripe, break the rec park/program elitism and develop inter-park/program leagues where one park's "AA" teams play league games against another parks "AA" teams, etc. They could all play a league schedule of 20-30 games then feed into a championship tournament at the end of the season. [quote]
We currently do this in our county. We have regular drafted rec ball, Div 1 ball (selected teams- lower level) and select teams (tournament level teams). Rec teams play only teams from their league or park, Div 1 teams play teams from all parks within the county at their level and select teams play the other tournament level teams from within the county, traveling from park to park. The select teams games are all on Tuesday and Thursday each week, leaving the weekends open for their tournaments. Seems to work well in our county. |
Edited by - Mad1 on 10/25/2011 10:24:56 |
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Steel-Will
278 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2011 : 10:28:45
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As a parent, I'd like to wave my magic wand and there'd be an organization that certifies Coaches.
Coaches would go through and complete a training program under the guidance and tutelage of the organization and upon successful completion would be able to use the organizations designation as an entry level, associate level, seasoned level, and expert level coach having undergone appropriate training and internship/mentorship to be a CERTIFIED youth baseball coach/manager.
This would not be dissimilar to the Certified Cisco Network Professional certification program where a course of study with a career path to the top level of certification could be followed.
Note that this training would not be mandatory for every coach to be eligible to coach a youth travelball team. However, holders of the certification would be sought after coaches / programs to participate in and would give parents some level of assurance that the coach knows a minimum amount about youth baseball coaching. The certification would also attest to his philosophy of development and how to achieve it. Also, that the coach believes in an adherence to pitch counts and other safety strategies that many parents want and season coaches value as mentioned above.
This really is a fantasy!!!
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Edited by - Steel-Will on 10/25/2011 10:43:59 |
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campo
5 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2011 : 10:40:58
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Ramman,
That is my point. I have seen some great travel teams over the years. These coaches understood it was about development of these kids for tomorrow. Not today. They played to win, but not at the expense of the player's health.
But, there is a high percentage of coaches/parents that only see today. Arm injuries show up after the fact. I read an interesting article in which a guy asked another about how many stud pitchers from when he was younger were still pitching at 18. The answer was none.
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HITANDRUN
436 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2011 : 13:00:59
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| I think the best thing for parents and kids would be for certain rec parks to open up for Travel Leagues. Bring in your team and play. Run it similar to a rec program with games throughout the week and one game on Saturday and Sunday. If you had 8 teams playing with the same skill level it would be very competitive and playing only one game per day with days in between would save arms. You could still play 3 games in a week. If you start playing games in March you could easily play 50 to 60 games counting an end of the year tournament. Even have an allstar game at the end too. |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2011 : 14:41:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Steel-Will
As a parent, I'd like to wave my magic wand and there'd be an organization that certifies Coaches.
Coaches would go through and complete a training program under the guidance and tutelage of the organization and upon successful completion would be able to use the organizations designation as an entry level, associate level, seasoned level, and expert level coach having undergone appropriate training and internship/mentorship to be a CERTIFIED youth baseball coach/manager.
This would not be dissimilar to the Certified Cisco Network Professional certification program where a course of study with a career path to the top level of certification could be followed.
Note that this training would not be mandatory for every coach to be eligible to coach a youth travelball team. However, holders of the certification would be sought after coaches / programs to participate in and would give parents some level of assurance that the coach knows a minimum amount about youth baseball coaching. The certification would also attest to his philosophy of development and how to achieve it. Also, that the coach believes in an adherence to pitch counts and other safety strategies that many parents want and season coaches value as mentioned above.
This really is a fantasy!!!
Great idea! And you managed to do it without taking a shot at Dad coaches, unlike others in this thread.
Nicely done all the way around. |
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ramman999
241 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2011 : 15:07:32
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quote:
Originally posted by campo
Ramman,
That is my point. I have seen some great travel teams over the years. These coaches understood it was about development of these kids for tomorrow. Not today. They played to win, but not at the expense of the player's health.
But, there is a high percentage of coaches/parents that only see today. Arm injuries show up after the fact. I read an interesting article in which a guy asked another about how many stud pitchers from when he was younger were still pitching at 18. The answer was none.
See, unfortunately you get the same in Rec ball - sometimes worse, even with pitch counts...
We've thrown 12 kids this fall over 20 games.. Obviously we have some that get more work than others, but the 50 pitch limit works... we've won more than we've lost, everyone is getting mound time, and I honestly feel we can throw any of 6 or 7 kids in a championship game and win, and hopefully that number gets to 9 by the time spring starts.
[quote]Originally posted by Steel-Will
As a parent, I'd like to wave my magic wand and there'd be an organization that certifies Coaches. [quote]
I LOVE this one - AAA or Major coaches required to be certified... Dads and all - maybe then maybe I'll stop feeling insulted just for being a coach AND a dad..
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Edited by - ramman999 on 10/25/2011 15:10:54 |
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MAPSTRE
33 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2011 : 16:09:07
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| Comming from coaching in softball for 6 years, ASA requires coaches to take an online course to be a certified coach. That would be a great addition for organizations such as USSSA to adopt. |
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changes you would make in travel ball
