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stanlewis
545 Posts |
 Posted - 06/01/2011 : 13:12:58
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There are discussions going on in other areas about bats that have been altered. Commonly called an illegal bat. There are two types of illegal bats: 1. A bat whose manufacturing specifications does not meet the sanctioning bodies requirements. 2. A bat that has been altered from the manufacturer's original design and production. In case 1 it is simple, the sanctioning body's rules determine the penalty. Usually in case 2, upon proof, the bat becomes illegal and the sanctioning body's rules again determine the penalty. Think Sammy Sosa's bat from a few years ago. Altered bats are sometimes tough to prove. It has become such a problem that testing happens on-site in some major events. College bat specifications were changed after testing bats used in the CWS and finding a good percentage of them were out of spec. In some cases manufacturers have produced bats that exceed the specifications after a "break in period" which is a primary reason for some of the new specifications.
Are bats being intentionally modified? Yes, I know for a fact it is happening.
Are there people offering services to modify bats? Yes, again I know for a fact that they exist.
Have players been falsely accused? Yes, many times on teams that I have coached a player has been accused of using an illegal bat and I knew for a fact it was not altered because it was a team bat that I kept in my possesion.
Is altering bats wrong? YES
Is it dangerous? YES
Should there be major penalties? YES
This topic is for general discussion of bats and what should be done about this problem. Do not accuse a player or team of using one because it just turns into a heated argument from both sides and cannot be settled in an argument. Use your energy to discuss what should be done and what penalties should be handed out. Hopefully from this we can get input that the sanctioning bodies can use to stablize the bat situation and help prevent injuries.
Those of you that have posted in other forums on this topic, please copy your post and re-post it in this section.
Thanks
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itsaboutbb
164 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2011 : 13:44:35
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| Remember Peter Kessler of the Golf channel getting fired over questioning Arnold Palmer endorsing Callaway's non conforming(ERC) driver. It gets ugly in all sports. Play by the rules. |
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BballNut
73 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2011 : 14:01:03
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I'm in favor of several coaches getting together in a forum to discuss the topic. I think as parents, we are all sympathetic to the possibilities of a kid getting seriously injured by a hit ball, especially with all the talk of juiced bats. What I do have a problem with is the innuendo. It is totally unfair to demonize a coach or mar a team in this type of forum without facts. Now if the bat that was looked at by the Astros coach as the UTrip rep didn't appear to be altered, our focus should be on what needs to be done. Blasting a coach and a team based on assumptions of a juiced bat is so wrong if the bat meets regulations (even if it's agreed that a child this age, size, etc. should not be using a drop 10). I know that's not what ecball has done but some of the others seem to immediately want to assume the worst. Out of curiosity, I went to several websites and used bat wizards to determine what size bat my son should be using. He is using a drop 8 but the range for his size (5 ft 100 lbs) goes from drop 5 to drop 10 according to the bat wizards.
Most parents are not experts at this kind of thing. Most parents don't even consult their coaches before buying a bat. We sure didn't. So, if a player is using a regulation bat even if we don't agree with it, the best way to resolve it is as ecball suggested through a meeting with UTrip, not bashing the child, coach and team here.
Any child hit in the face with a well hit ball will be seriously injured. We all know composites are being banned. That's the answer to this issue. However, until that happens it should be addressed with the sanctioning bodies - not a potentially innocent child, parent or coach. |
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seminole tony
147 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2011 : 22:55:54
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Devils advocate... If a child is injured by a player using a illegal bat during a game should criminal charges follow? Banning the player or team for a period of time? Removing all previous wins from the users team? Who will test the bat? Do you think a team will part with the bat after questions are raised on the spot(allow someone to confiscate it)?
A lot of thing will change after this year with BBCOR going into effect.
BUT...There will still have to be an economical way for TD's to check bats on site. This has to be #1 along with umps watching and hearing the bats for abnormalities.
Set up a process that if a coach has his doubts about another teams bat(s) he notifies the ump between innings that he wishes to have the bat tested after the game. If there is no problems the score stands. If the bat is found to be illegal, game if forfeited, team ousted from tournament and barred from (x) number or time from USSSA, Nations, Triple Crown tournaments.
This is just a few thing that come to mind while sitting here. I'm not a lawyer or TD and any suggestions that make the ball field safer and level for all kids, I'm for it. |
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vols
14 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2011 : 04:42:48
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I can think back to win I was 12 and remember a pitcher being hit in the face with a batted ball. Bats then were not composites as that was almost 30 years ago. I do not think that banning drop 10s is the answer either. My son plays tournament ball and little league. You can't find a legal little league bat under a minus 10 for the most part. In tournament play he usually uses a drop 8. I however do know that an 11 yr old should not be able to hit balls that I saw hit this weekend. I did not see a game in which anyone got hit this weekend. I just saw some balls go farther than I've ever seen 13 or 14 s ever hit. I also heard sounds of baseballs hitting bats that did not sound like they should. Tournament ball is very competitive. The team I coach is not the top team although they strive to get better. I however made it clear to my team and parents this weekend if I ever caught one of them using a shaved bat that they would not play for me and that I would not hesitate to let every other team I know that they used such bats. That is the closest that I can come to putting my 2 cents in. I will also add that I have been told by several friends from the softball world that mens softball is losing players due to illegal bats. I would hate for that to happen to baseball. Tournaments such as the one in east cobb are to much fun for all involved.
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ramman999
241 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2011 : 10:59:42
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I think it is the pressure of the long ball and to win... I agree - you see 10u kids driving the ball 275+ and have to wonder...
Technology has made all sports easier to play - just look at golf!
Baseball bats with the allure of "widest sweet spot known to mankind"!! Girl's softball bans bats every other year it seems.. Competitive men's softball players has been doctoring bats for years, and guess what? They are dads... A 10 year old kid doesn't know where to go to get a shaved bat!!! But dad knows...
Cheating has been around forever and you can police it better on site, but start with exotic metals and composite materials - to me it's no differently than steroids or any other quick fit to get the edge.
Manufacturers have readily jumped into market with the bats, and we as parents have created the marketplace by buying them. It's time that the powers that be make it simple, and limit the technology, and you're seeing the trickle down now with the BBCOR.
Then the sanctioning leagues can eliminate the use of altered/intentionally altered bats... TD's should be policing this on site - just a simple pregame visual inspection of equipment is sufficient - I've been to girls softball tournaments where equipment had to be checked in the dugout prior to the game, and any use of equipment during the game not checked was an automatic out and ejection for coach and player.. |
Edited by - ramman999 on 06/02/2011 12:28:31 |
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itsaboutbb
164 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2011 : 14:55:09
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quote:
Originally posted by seminole tony
Devils advocate... If a child is injured by a player using a illegal bat during a game should criminal charges follow? Banning the player or team for a period of time? Removing all previous wins from the users team? Who will test the bat? Do you think a team will part with the bat after questions are raised on the spot(allow someone to confiscate it)?
A lot of thing will change after this year with BBCOR going into effect.
BUT...There will still have to be an economical way for TD's to check bats on site. This has to be #1 along with umps watching and hearing the bats for abnormalities.
Set up a process that if a coach has his doubts about another teams bat(s) he notifies the ump between innings that he wishes to have the bat tested after the game. If there is no problems the score stands. If the bat is found to be illegal, game if forfeited, team ousted from tournament and barred from (x) number or time from USSSA, Nations, Triple Crown tournaments.
This is just a few thing that come to mind while sitting here. I'm not a lawyer or TD and any suggestions that make the ball field safer and level for all kids, I'm for it.
A couple of things. One, a client of mine told me today that he knew somebody that got hit in the face in a mens softball game and turns out that the bat that was used was illegal and the batter was charged with a crime. Second thing, where did this discussion start? It sounds like it is an offshoot from another discussion based on what Bballnut was saying. |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 06/02/2011 : 15:51:42
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| problem is you CANNOT visibly tell an altered bat from a stock bat....It must be compression tested or cut open. Stock bats have also been known to fail compression testing, though usually they are just worn slap out when they get to that point. |
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ramman999
241 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2011 : 07:58:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Spartan4
Stock bats have also been known to fail compression testing, though usually they are just worn slap out when they get to that point.
Tell me about it - my son's last Lithium was never hotter than the last tournament he used it in prior to Disney last year - by then, it was practically flat on one side - when the metal finally started splitting we pulled it out of his bag. But I will tell you, in a full season I only saw 1 umpire disqualifying game worn bats. I've seen Lithiums, Rivals, you name it at the plate almost flat on one side, and barely do they get checked, or tossed by the home ump. True, the composites are tougher to check, but the metal bats are obvious and they don't check those.. |
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Hillio
123 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2011 : 14:08:10
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quote:
I think it is the pressure of the long ball and to win... I agree - you see 10u kids driving the ball 275+ and have to wonder...
My kid plays 10U, and while there are some composites being used, I see just as many alloy and hybrid bats being used. Maybe more. And I have seen plenty of balls hit well over 200 feet with aluminum bats. One of which traveled at least 275 feet before hitting a tree. I see them hit in the 225' to 250' range pretty regularly with bats like the Easton Rival, Worth Lithium, pretty much any Demarini bat, and lately I've seen some bombs hit with the white Marucci bats.
"Hot" bats are surely to blame for some of the anomalies people are seeing, but I also think part of it is that kids are getting to be better hitters at younger ages than they used to.
I think many coaches are finally teaching proper hitting mechanics, and are abandoning the whole "extend your arms" and "swing down on the ball" and "defy the laws of physics while your at it" nonsense that has been taught to kids for decades. So little Jimmy who used to follow the coaches instructions to the letter, and hit weak ground balls %75 of the time, has finally learned how to rotate, and use his legs, hips and shoulders to generate bat speed. And as a result, we're seeing a lot more wicked line drives and long home runs than in the past. I'm certain this would be true regardless of what bats are being used. |
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christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2011 : 15:18:12
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| They dont require us to check each bat, unlike high school. I simply ask both coaches, at the plate meeting if their teams are properly and legally equipped, to which they ALWAYS answers yes. |
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baseballatitsfinest
47 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2011 : 23:11:52
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| hillio, some of what you are saying is true, but in the 12u age group there are bats being used that are altered... just listen. When a kid hits a 300' bomb and the bat does not make a noise I would almost gaurantee that bat has been altered, with or without there knowledge and I know teams that are doing it. |
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Hillio
123 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2011 : 11:48:36
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quote:
Originally posted by baseballatitsfinest
hillio, some of what you are saying is true, but in the 12u age group there are bats being used that are altered... just listen. When a kid hits a 300' bomb and the bat does not make a noise I would almost gaurantee that bat has been altered, with or without there knowledge and I know teams that are doing it.
I don't doubt that at all. I'm sure there are questionable bats in every age group. It just seems to me that every time a kids gets hit in the head, or a long home run is hit that someone is questioning the bat. 95% of the time, the bat is not a factor in any given play. I saw A LOT of home runs this weekend at the TC State tourney, some of them were bombs, and just looked ridiculous coming of the bat of a 10 year old. But I only remember a few that were hit with anything other than your typical aluminum bat. That just helps me make my point that although some bats may be "illegal", the majority of hard hit balls are coming off of perfectly normal bats. |
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toprank
138 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2011 : 13:33:33
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I AM 100% FOR EVERYONE GOING TO WOOD!
Cooperstown wants you to go back to nostalgic baseball, high socks, white pants, then why not go back to wood bats. Has anyone ever asked them about it? When I go up there I am going to ask them about that. |
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BREAMKING
323 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2011 : 16:57:55
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| I think when they changed the age it changed the game. And what about the baseball. Go out and hit bp with some wilson a1010 and then hit with some cheap balls and compare. It is probably a little bit of it all but my guess is the age of the kid. 12u has many many 13yr. olds playing right now. Years back those guys would be on the size diamond they need to be on. |
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Tball
142 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2011 : 17:16:47
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| Hillio, you are correct... many hard hit balls come off of legit bats. Just like golf the equipment is better and so are the players, therefor they are making the courses longer. Having said that I have seen kids hit 300+ bombs in 12u then when not able to use there bat they can't even sniff a 300ft fence. |
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Triple
26 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2011 : 18:56:41
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| Breamking, I agree with you 100%. They need to go back to the way it was before the birth date change. Now you have kids that are older than the grade playing down. It makes a dangerous situation. |
Edited by - Triple on 06/06/2011 19:54:48 |
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catch and throw
13 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2011 : 09:25:40
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| We played ATL SUPER NIT and kid hit 1st inning with bat and the top flew out to shortstop.Next inning another kid hit same thing happened, so went to TD he looked at it said it was ok.Anyone with common since should know something is up if the cap of a bat keeps flying off and the team runs to get it and uses it the rest of the game.Just saying! |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2011 : 10:48:10
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| Not sure why this wasn't posted earlier, but until we have better ways to detect a cheated up bat than, "a coach looked at it" it will continue to occur. We need these organizations to step up a purchase a compression tester and then we can put all the speculation to a stop!! |
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ramman999
241 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2011 : 11:29:16
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quote:
Originally posted by toprank
I AM 100% FOR EVERYONE GOING TO WOOD!
Cooperstown wants you to go back to nostalgic baseball, high socks, white pants, then why not go back to wood bats. Has anyone ever asked them about it? When I go up there I am going to ask them about that.
I would love to see them go back to wood. BUT...... now you open a new can of worms - broken bats, kids getting hit by pieces of wood, etc.
I might ask as well - we'll be there in a few weeks.. |
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rustybucket
67 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2011 : 13:32:23
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| Once the cap of a bat has popped off it is no longer in mfg condition and should be removed from play. At least that is my understanding of the rule? |
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Stinger44
49 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2011 : 14:32:05
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quote:
Originally posted by rustybucket
Once the cap of a bat has popped off it is no longer in mfg condition and should be removed from play. At least that is my understanding of the rule?
Hum....removable cap on bat. Are you thinking what I'm thinking....
Yeah...great way to beat the cooler Nazi's and smuggle in some Gatorade! |
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toprank
138 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2011 : 08:24:09
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Are Bamboo bats safer than Maple? I am sure they could use something other than Maple that would be safer. BBCOR bats will probably be altered next if they are not already.
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PASSBALL
28 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2011 : 11:42:30
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| well assume that everyone is talking about the composite bat. I ask this question, a compostie bat fresh out the wrapper is not broken in right? So mom or dad has spent 250 to 300 on this bat. Kid goes out everyday and hits balls say 100 a day. Then to the game he warms up with it. We have all been there, a teammate says i want to use your bat during warmups. So another 20 swings, then another teammate so you see where I'm going. Now that bat is good and broken in less than two weeks. Is that bat illegal now because we all know what happens to a composite bat once its broken in. So whats the difference if the brand new bat gets rolled the same day it is bought? And what is a parent to do with it after 2 weeks? Remember they spent 250 to 300 on this bat and have only had it 2 weeks. |
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Hillio
123 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2011 : 13:09:33
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quote:
Originally posted by PASSBALL
well assume that everyone is talking about the composite bat. I ask this question, a compostie bat fresh out the wrapper is not broken in right? So mom or dad has spent 250 to 300 on this bat. Kid goes out everyday and hits balls say 100 a day. Then to the game he warms up with it. We have all been there, a teammate says i want to use your bat during warmups. So another 20 swings, then another teammate so you see where I'm going. Now that bat is good and broken in less than two weeks. Is that bat illegal now because we all know what happens to a composite bat once its broken in. So whats the difference if the brand new bat gets rolled the same day it is bought? And what is a parent to do with it after 2 weeks? Remember they spent 250 to 300 on this bat and have only had it 2 weeks.
Now that the rule changes have been made clear, it's pretty simple: Don't buy a composite bat. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2011 : 13:19:26
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quote:
Originally posted by PASSBALL
well assume that everyone is talking about the composite bat. I ask this question, a compostie bat fresh out the wrapper is not broken in right? So mom or dad has spent 250 to 300 on this bat. Kid goes out everyday and hits balls say 100 a day. Then to the game he warms up with it. We have all been there, a teammate says i want to use your bat during warmups. So another 20 swings, then another teammate so you see where I'm going. Now that bat is good and broken in less than two weeks. Is that bat illegal now because we all know what happens to a composite bat once its broken in. So whats the difference if the brand new bat gets rolled the same day it is bought? And what is a parent to do with it after 2 weeks? Remember they spent 250 to 300 on this bat and have only had it 2 weeks.
In the scenario you describe, rolling a bat is still cheating. Justify it any way you like, however, you are violating the rules by doctoring the bat, regardless of whether the same outcome might occur "naturally" over time. So ultimately the problem is that composite bats meet sanctioning body specifications out of the wrapper, but over time change to exceed those specifications, thus making them effectively illegal. So if the bat were compression tested, it would exceed the allowable parameters for league play and be ruled ineligible for use. In that case, mom and dad would be peeved that the bat they legally purchased, and through no fault or effort on their part could no longer be used.
So, the sanctioning bodies, recognizing this, have mostly banned composite bats, or now have specifications such that the bats don't exceed specification AFTER the break-in period. It is still illegal to roll the bats to enhance the performance even if the bat will ultimately reach that point, and even if the bats performance is significantly reduced until the time that it is broken in. The proper and legal way is to use the bat for reps in the cage, during BP, etc., until nature takes its course, whether a player can do this in two days or two months, it doesn't justify the wanton disregard for the rules and the intentional altering of the bat.
Manufacturers could fix this by rolling the bats prior to wrapping and shipping so that they are at their maximum potential at first swing (provided that the bat ships meeting the sanctioning bodies specifications) and eliminate this whole problem.
This doesn't address the issue of shaving bats. |
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Altered Bats
