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Storm Baseball
212 Posts |
 Posted - 05/15/2011 : 20:11:55
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Please help me here...I played baseball growing up, in high school and in college. I have coached my son since he was 4...he is now 15. I have never come across this situation.
Is a coach required to tell A) the umpires and/or B) the opposing coach when he is making a substitution? Had a situation in a close game in the TC North Atlanta Open today. Player entered for starting player (apparently an inning or two earlier based on opposing teams parents yelling at me but I did not catch it), he batted and walked. I called time and told the umpire that I believed they had batted out of order. The opposing coach said that he made the switch but neither the umpires nor I had a record of it (TC umpires require you to fill out a lineup card prior to the game and they take notes on it). I said that they were batting out of order and that player should be out. I was told by the umpires that he is not "required" to announce the substitution?!?!?!? What???
If he was called out for batting out of order, that would have been the second out of the inning and then a strikeout two batters later would have ended the game. Of course, game/inning continues and they go on to win... Certainly not the reason we lost, but definitely contributed... |
Edited by - Storm Baseball on 05/15/2011 20:13:38 |
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scottwill311
52 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2011 : 20:49:55
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.08 (a) If no announcement of a substitution is made, the substitute shall be considered as having entered the game when_
(1) If a pitcher, he takes his place on the pitcher's plate;
(2) If a batter, he takes his place in the batter's box;
(3) If a fielder, he reaches the position usually occupied by the fielder he has replaced, and play commences;
(4) If a runner, he takes the place of the runner he has replaced.
(b) Any play made by, or on, any of the above mentioned unannounced substitutes shall be legal.
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Storm Baseball
212 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2011 : 20:58:25
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| Well, geez Scott...that pretty much sums it up. You didn't even give us a chance to argue it! So why do we all announce it? |
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Thunder
72 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2011 : 07:40:15
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| i think its always been a general understanding that subs are announced, even though by rule, it's not required. the umpires can't (or don't, other than pitchers) keep up with who is coming and going in the game. |
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scottboring
44 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2011 : 09:18:24
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| It is a violation to bat out of order so how is the opposing team to know if you are out of order or made a substitution? Do you just assume they are a sub when you see someone on the sub list come up? |
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Storm Baseball
212 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2011 : 09:42:36
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| What keeps a coach from playing defense with all his best defenders and then batting all his big sticks??? If we are not tracking it intently, this could happen. |
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Thunder
72 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2011 : 12:19:37
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at every high school game that we had this year, the coaches went to the umpire to tell them about their subs which were then communicated to the opposing coach.
over the years and after hundreds of games, its always been a general practice of announcing subs. just announce em.....this eliminates any questions and keeps everything above board !!
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2011 : 12:30:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm Baseball
What keeps a coach from playing defense with all his best defenders and then batting all his big sticks??? If we are not tracking it intently, this could happen.
You can sub for the starter and the starter can go back in once. Once the starter goes back in, the sub is done for the game. If the starter goes out again, he is done for the game.
If you're not paying close enough attention to catch wholesale changes like in your example, or if you're scorekeeper doesn't catch it, you are in a world of hurt.
I agree with you're point, though, and am surprised that there is no consequence for not announcing a sub, like an out for batting out of order. |
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northgwinnet
22 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2011 : 14:16:18
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As an umpire, I will say that it is difficult if not impossible to keep up with unannounced substitutes. The only time changes are obvious is when the pitcher is changed, because TC requires us to keep track of innings pitched. As a coach, it is most important to have someone keep the book for your team, as you can see. Without a disinterested third party, an official scorer, things could get out of control in a hurry.
As the coach, you should bring it up at every home plate meeting and agree that you will announce substitutes to each other, as a courtesy. While failure to do so after agreeing carries no penalty, it will usually do the trick in getting coaches to comply. |
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Storm Baseball
212 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2011 : 14:33:05
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| I guess I would ask who watches, by position, who comes and goes onto the field between each inning, especially if they don't have numbers on the front of their jerseys. |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2011 : 15:27:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm Baseball
I guess I would ask who watches, by position, who comes and goes onto the field between each inning, especially if they don't have numbers on the front of their jerseys.
I didn't when I was coaching. I do when I keep score.
I honestly don't know if my scorekeepers didn't when I was coaching... |
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christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2011 : 15:50:47
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| I have been lucky to have the coaches tell me if their subs come in. |
Edited by - christheump on 05/16/2011 16:28:50 |
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BBBigfan
2 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2011 : 22:08:43
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quote:
Originally posted by scottwill311
.08 (a) If no announcement of a substitution is made, the substitute shall be considered as having entered the game when_
(1) If a pitcher, he takes his place on the pitcher's plate;
(2) If a batter, he takes his place in the batter's box;
(3) If a fielder, he reaches the position usually occupied by the fielder he has replaced, and play commences;
(4) If a runner, he takes the place of the runner he has replaced.
(b) Any play made by, or on, any of the above mentioned unannounced substitutes shall be legal.
We had a very similar situation this weekend:
During a close game time almost gone, one man on base w/2 outs our coach substituted in a player to bat (player was listed on the lineup card as a substitute). Player comes to the plate and is announced as the batter by the PA announcer for everyone in the park to hear.
Batter hits a hard single allowing the runner to score, batter is then thrown out at second trying to stretch the single into a double ending the inning, but making the game that much closer.
The opposing coach then complains to the umpires that since he or his scorekeeper were not informed of the change that it was illegal switch, umpires agree and disallow the run, never telling our coach of the problem or of their decision.
If the previous post was correct then the umpires are wrong at least twice:
1) Not knowing the rules.
2) Not informing our coach of what they had done and giving him the opportunity to to re-butt the other coach.
And by the way the opposing coach made no similar complaint when our coach substituted for our starting catcher and pitcher and he or his scorekeeper were not informed personally (but announced by the PA).
Did all ot this upset our team, yes. Was there a lot of disgruntled parents being vocal, yes. In my opinion and my opinion only did the umpires get "rabbit ears" and react yes, after that the opposing team's pitcher had the biggest strike zone in all of Georgia, if it was in the same zip code as the plate it was strike.
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2011 : 23:16:59
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| Umpires didn't know the rules?? I'm not sure I can believe that!!! JK |
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stepoff
92 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2011 : 00:48:01
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| Did anyone get the TD involved? File a formal protest? Sounds to me like the TD needed to be involved in making the final call and not an umpire. |
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Substitutions
