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SouthSide24
44 Posts |
 Posted - 05/02/2011 : 22:30:35
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Runners on 2nd and 3rd..2 outs...
Batter hits HR over centerfield fence..
Batter/runner was so giddy that he did not touch home plate..
3rd base coach saw this and ran to the batter who just crossed home plate (he was being mobbed by teammates) and did touch him, not much but did touch his shoulders and instruct him to touch home plate. Other team was going crazy about coach touching player..Still not sure why 3b coach ran all the way down to the plate..LOL
Anyhow, the umps said that the 2 preceding runs scored, but batter is out due to coach interfence of not allowing to assist runner..
This was a Little League game, and not sure of the rules on this..Just curious.. |
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jacjacatk
154 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2011 : 22:51:14
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2 preceding runs definitely score if they touch the plate prior to contact with the batter-runner, unless LL has some weird rule that changes the standard scoring rules.
Can't get to LL rules online to confirm coaches interference rules (though I think I recall that anyone touching the player kills the play at that point), but USSSA would appear to default to MLB rules. Under those rules, 7.10d, the batter can be declared out on appeal, which would have to happen after a new ball is put in play, or can be out due to coaches interference under 7.09h if "In the judgment of the umpire, the base coach at third base, or first base, by touching or holding the runner, physically assists him in returning to or leaving third base or first base." IMO instructing him to touch home would be OK, but touching him in the process of instructing him is borderline, and anything more than just touching him (turning him around, pushing him towards the plate, whatever) would be over the line. Since you've got until the ball is put into play for an appeal though, I'd think you ought to be able to get the kid's attention without having to cross the line if you know the rules. |
Edited by - jacjacatk on 05/02/2011 23:01:48 |
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christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2011 : 08:16:11
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| 7.09h is only specifies 1B and 3B....Borderline call IMO. |
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baseball1
56 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2011 : 11:58:38
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| 2 outs ? then no runs score , inning over ... batter is out per not making the entire trip around the bases within the rules , so it will be considered a dead ball out and no one scores ahead of him...it is the same as hitting a home run and missing a base . If appealed and caught he is out no one advances... |
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christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2011 : 13:28:27
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quote:
Originally posted by baseball1
2 outs ? then no runs score , inning over ... batter is out per not making the entire trip around the bases within the rules , so it will be considered a dead ball out and no one scores ahead of him...it is the same as hitting a home run and missing a base . If appealed and caught he is out no one advances...
True but I dont think the OP was saying they were appealing the touch of HP, only the touch of the 3BC. |
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jacjacatk
154 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2011 : 14:02:58
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quote:
Originally posted by christheump
7.09h is only specifies 1B and 3B....Borderline call IMO.
IMO, he is technically assisting him in leaving 3rd base, or at least I think that's the way it would be interpreted if the situation actually happened in MLB.
quote:
Originally posted by baseball1
2 outs ? then no runs score , inning over ... batter is out per not making the entire trip around the bases within the rules , so it will be considered a dead ball out and no one scores ahead of him...it is the same as hitting a home run and missing a base . If appealed and caught he is out no one advances...
Are you speaking in LL-specific rules? There's probably a more clear cite in the MLB rules somewhere, but MLB 7.12 (and in other leagues where MLB rules apply) clearly implies that the preceding runners score in this case.
"7.12 Unless two are out, the status of a following runner is not affected by a preceding runner’s failure to touch or retouch a base. If, upon appeal, the preceding runner is the third out, no runners following him shall score. If such third out is the result of a force play, neither preceding nor following runners shall score."
Additionally, 10.06d provides that if on a HR the batter touches all the bases except home, it's scored as a triple. 10.06f and 10.06g also require that, with the exceptions of HR (where HR requires the batter to have properly touched all 4 bases) only the number of runs necessary to win the game are credited on a game ending hit. Not sure if that applies here, but it was pertinent in this game, http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1999/B10170NYN1999.htm, where Robin Ventura hit what would have been a walk-off grand slam in a 3-3 game, but the final score ended up being 4-3 when he failed to advance past first at the end of the game, and he got credit for a single and 1 RBI. |
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davidh6265
27 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2011 : 02:00:26
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| All 3 runs score unless the opposing team appeals missing home plate once a new ball is put into play, or the umpire called the batter/runner out for coach's interference, which is not a play for appeal, but an umpire's judgement call. I wouldn't call it if the kid went back and touched home plate. Remember we're talking about taking away a homerun from a 12 year old kid. Sometimes, especially in the younger age-groups, you have to consider the intent of the rule and use a little common sense. |
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baseball1
56 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2011 : 09:16:37
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quote:
Originally posted by jacjacatk
quote:
Originally posted by christheump
7.09h is only specifies 1B and 3B....Borderline call IMO.
IMO, he is technically assisting him in leaving 3rd base, or at least I think that's the way it would be interpreted if the situation actually happened in MLB.
quote:
Originally posted by baseball1
2 outs ? then no runs score , inning over ... batter is out per not making the entire trip around the bases within the rules , so it will be considered a dead ball out and no one scores ahead of him...it is the same as hitting a home run and missing a base . If appealed and caught he is out no one advances...
Are you speaking in LL-specific rules? There's probably a more clear cite in the MLB rules somewhere, but MLB 7.12 (and in other leagues where MLB rules apply) clearly implies that the preceding runners score in this case.
"7.12 Unless two are out, the status of a following runner is not affected by a preceding runner’s failure to touch or retouch a base. If, upon appeal, the preceding runner is the third out, no runners following him shall score. If such third out is the result of a force play, neither preceding nor following runners shall score."
Additionally, 10.06d provides that if on a HR the batter touches all the bases except home, it's scored as a triple. 10.06f and 10.06g also require that, with the exceptions of HR (where HR requires the batter to have properly touched all 4 bases) only the number of runs necessary to win the game are credited on a game ending hit. Not sure if that applies here, but it was pertinent in this game, http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/1999/B10170NYN1999.htm, where Robin Ventura hit what would have been a walk-off grand slam in a 3-3 game, but the final score ended up being 4-3 when he failed to advance past first at the end of the game, and he got credit for a single and 1 RBI.
If he is assisted or however way didn't make it around the bases within the rules he is out, no runs score, as was 2 outs .. as you say 10.06 requires only the home run to properly touch all bases . Otherwise it wasn't a home run so it wasn't a hit . |
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Hillio
123 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2011 : 09:45:35
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EDIT**I wrote this prior to reading the entire thread. The Robin Ventura thing has already been mentioned a couple of posts up, but I'm too lazy to re-write my spiel, so here it is anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by baseball1
2 outs ? then no runs score , inning over ... batter is out per not making the entire trip around the bases within the rules , so it will be considered a dead ball out and no one scores ahead of him...it is the same as hitting a home run and missing a base . If appealed and caught he is out no one advances...
Not correct. All the batter has to do is make sure that he touches first base for the other two runners to score. If he doesn't touch first base, and the other team appeals, then the batter is out and no runs score.
I refer you to Game 5 of the 1999 NLCS: Braves were up 3-2 in the top of the 15th when Robin Ventura of the Mets hit a walk-off grand slam but was mobbed by his coaches and teammates, including the runner that had been on first base prior to Ventura's at-bat, before he could make it to second base. Ventura was called out at that point, the hit was ruled a single and the runners on 2nd and 3rd were allowed to score. Mets won the game 4-3.
I assume that the coach was just touching the player to get his attention or whatever, and IMO the batter should not have been called out and the run should have counted. How many times have you seen a 3rd base coaches high-5 a player that hit a home run as they round 3rd base? I wouldn't think that touching a runner to get his attention would be much different. |
Edited by - Hillio on 05/04/2011 12:50:23 |
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northgwinnet
22 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2011 : 12:26:12
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| If the 97-year-old woman on the 737 seven miles overhead didn't see the 12-year-old miss the plate when he was mobbed by his teammates, than neither did I. |
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Hillio
123 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2011 : 13:11:42
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quote:
as you say 10.06 requires only the home run to properly touch all bases . Otherwise it wasn't a home run so it wasn't a hit
If he touched ALL the bases except home plate, it would be ruled a triple. THEN he would be out AFTER being credited with a triple, in which case he would have made it to 3rd base safely. All other runners would have to have touched home plate themselves prior to the batter missing the plate, so all those runs count. This would be the case under any set of baseball rules used since the beginning of time. |
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jacjacatk
154 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2011 : 13:47:34
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quote:
Originally posted by baseball1
If he is assisted or however way didn't make it around the bases within the rules he is out, no runs score, as was 2 outs .. as you say 10.06 requires only the home run to properly touch all bases . Otherwise it wasn't a home run so it wasn't a hit .
No, under MLB rules (which also apply for USSSA, apparently) if he's declared out for missing just home, it's a triple and the 2 runners score.
Since LL isn't as helpful about publishing their rules online, I can't easily check their rules. One oblique reference I was able to find online (in a set of clarifications for a LL umpire) states that coaches interference makes the runner out and ball dead, though the implication is that the out and killing of the play happen at the moment of the interference, which would still allow the preceding runners to score in the original situation. |
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aadad
8 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2011 : 14:03:31
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| Right on, Davidh - the intent of the rule and common sense should prevail. The kid hit it over the fence - what good does it do to take that away from him?? |
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jongamefan
218 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2011 : 23:25:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Hillio
quote:
as you say 10.06 requires only the home run to properly touch all bases . Otherwise it wasn't a home run so it wasn't a hit
If he touched ALL the bases except home plate, it would be ruled a triple. THEN he would be out AFTER being credited with a triple, in which case he would have made it to 3rd base safely. All other runners would have to have touched home plate themselves prior to the batter missing the plate, so all those runs count. This would be the case under any set of baseball rules used since the beginning of time.
HILL: actualy baseball is right
i have seen this play except for it wasnt the walk off win kinda thing .
usualy if a ball is hit fairly and the runner reaches 1st then thats all needed for a hit
if a ball is hit over the outfield fence then rules say you must
touch all four bases or you didnt meet the minimum bases for that hit
its not an option to stop at 1st 2nd or 3rd as in a ball staying in the park this is a home run when you tag all four basses
miss any base and its a dead ball out saw this coupla years back in Statesboro the ump jumped right on it when the batter missed home ran strait into the dugout
opposing coach saw it protested then end of inning zero runs came across with that ump and there wasnt much argument made about it |
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Hillio
123 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2011 : 10:21:21
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quote:
if a ball is hit over the outfield fence then rules say you must
touch all four bases or you didnt meet the minimum bases for that hit
its not an option to stop at 1st 2nd or 3rd as in a ball staying in the park this is a home run when you tag all four basses
Au contraire. I've also seen almost this exact situation with 2 outs in high school, except the batter missed 3rd base instead of home. All the runs counted except for the batter.
The following is from the official MLB rule book, which is followed by most sanctioning bodies except for changes/ammendments that are made. These changes are published by the sactioning body, and none of them cover the topic at hand. Therefore, we would default to MLB rules.
4.09 HOW A TEAM SCORES.
(a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first,
second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning.
EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a
play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first
base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases.
(b) When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a regulation game, or in the
last half of an extra inning, as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other
play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance, the umpire shall
not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has
touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base.
Rule 4.09(b) Comment: An exception will be if fans rush onto the field and physically prevent the
runner from touching home plate or the batter from touching first base. In such cases, the umpires shall
award the runner the base because of the obstruction by the fans.
Rule 4.09 to 4.10
36
PENALTY: If the runner on third refuses to advance to and touch home base in a
reasonable time, the umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending player and
order the game resumed. If, with two out, the batter-runner refuses to advance to
and touch first base, the umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending player,
and order the game resumed. If, before two are out, the batter-runner refuses to
advance to and touch first base, the run shall count, but the offending player shall be
called out.
Rule 4.09 Comment: APPROVED RULING: No run shall score during a play in which the third
out is made by the batter-runner before he touches first base. Example: One out, Jones on second, Smith
on first. The batter, Brown, hits safely. Jones scores. Smith is out on the throw to the plate. Two outs.
But Brown missed first base. The ball is thrown to first, an appeal is made, and Brown is out. Three
outs. Since Jones crossed the plate during a play in which the third out was made by the batter-runner
before he touched first base, Jones’ run does not count.
If the home team scores the winning run in its half of the ninth inning (or its half of
an extra inning after a tie), the game ends immediately when the winning run is
scored. EXCEPTION: If the last batter in a game hits a home run out of the playing
field, the batter-runner and all runners on base are permitted to score, in accordance
with the base-running rules, and the game ends when the batter-runner touches
home plate.
APPROVED RULING: The batter hits a home run out of the playing field to win
the game in the last half of the ninth or an extra inning, but is called out for passing
a preceding runner. The game ends immediately when the winning run is scored,
unless there are two out and the winning run has not yet reached home plate when
the runner passes another, in which case the inning is over and only those runs that scored before the runner passes another shall count.
*Note* The last sentence in the last paragraph describes a batter having hit a home run, and then passed another runner. This situation is different than the one being discussed, but demonstrates the fact that runners on base when a batter hits a homerun are allowed to score - even with two out - as long as:
(1)The batter doesn't miss first base
(2)The runners score before the batter is called out for whatever it is that he did to get himself called out, INCLUDING missing home plate. (Or 2nd or 3rd base)
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Weird play not sure of ruling..
