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oldschooldad
203 Posts |
 Posted - 04/06/2011 : 10:51:11
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quote:
Originally posted by davidh6265
I'm not defending "daddyball" at all, but GENERALLY SPEAKING, coaches' sons are better ball players than the average kid on the team. Maybe because those dads have spent a lot more time throwing the ball in the front yard with the kids from a very early age.
Not sure I agree at all with your generalization. IMO, Daadyball is when Jr. would not play the position he does or even be on the time if Dad wasn't the coach. |
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ramman999
241 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2011 : 09:50:59
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quote:
Originally posted by loveforthegame25
I think we need a definition of daddy ball to continue this topic.
From another Thread:
I think (and correct me if I am wrong) that there a few different types of daddy ball:
Type 1 is dad, who coaches (manager, assistant, other) and blatantly puts his son in front of more capable players in the field and in the batting order - true daddy ball- you see this more in Rec Ball, but it is everywhere, usually not above AA level - usually not tolerated long when you are talking the cost of travel ball
Type 2 is the dad whose son is an 8/9/10 player on a good team and sits/subs. Dad doesn't like that, so he takes his son, plus a few more disgruntled dads, and starts a team around their kids. Unfortunately, this is what is watering down travel ball from 12u on down. AA - AAA levels
Type 3 is Manager dad, whose son is skilled and playing where he should be, but because he is the coaches son it is perceived as favoritism by parents of weaker players. This coach will usually sub his son first at the expense of being called daddy ball. This usually causes Type 1 and 2 dads to leave, ironically because of what they perceive as "daddy ball" AA- AAA, possibly some weak Major level teams
Type 4 is Manager dad, who states from the beginning that playing time/position is merit based, and his son falls within the top 5 skilled players on the team, therefore does not sit. You'll see this more on the top teams that do not have independent coaches - this is called daddy ball for no other reason than the fact a dad is involved.
All levels
Probably fits the % breakdown in a previous posting..
The purpose of moving players is to develop the players skills for their next level (HS) - I think players playing competitive ball under 13u should be able to play and excel in at least 2 positions (not including pitcher) - hopefully more. And the only way to see what you have is to move them around during pool games, etc.
My 10u son is starting middle infielder (I do not coach him anymore)but can play everywhere and usually does without much if any drop off and it gives his team all kinds of options. I think his coaches appreciate that, and his HS coaches will as well - and might be the difference maker against taking another player instead of him |
Edited by - ramman999 on 04/07/2011 10:12:46 |
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jongamefan
218 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2011 : 12:42:38
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STAR: that is interesting
but what age group(s) do you speak of here?
quote:
Originally posted by AllStar
quote:
Originally posted by davidh6265
I'm not defending "daddyball" at all, but GENERALLY SPEAKING, coaches' sons are better ball players than the average kid on the team. Maybe because those dads have spent a lot more time throwing the ball in the front yard with the kids from a very early age.
I just did a quick, unscientifc review of 5 JV rosters with players that I am familiar with. It looks like about 50% of the players' dads coached them at one time or another that I know of for sure. I don't know how many of them are playing a lot, a little or not at all.
I think Alter Ego took a swag at some percentages that are probably pretty realistic, i.e. daddy ball exists but is probably not as prevalent/universal as you would think from reading this board. Especially in travel. Could be a case of disgruntled customers being more vocal than satisfied ones.
Of course past results are not indicative of future returns and your mileage may vary. 
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ramman999
241 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2011 : 08:31:19
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quote:
Originally posted by jongamefan
great thing we saw about high school ball was that all this dads sons and friends sons favortism nonsense + manipulation went strait out the window
thats when the previous dad's favored kids found out the way things really were and where they really stood against others - and so did there dads ! 
Very true for a lot of High Schools;
However, for some schools "Daddy ball" is replaced by "Political ball", where the who you know supersedes talent |
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ChinMusic
126 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2011 : 10:28:33
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quote:
Originally posted by ramman999
quote:
Originally posted by jongamefan
great thing we saw about high school ball was that all this dads sons and friends sons favortism nonsense + manipulation went strait out the window
thats when the previous dad's favored kids found out the way things really were and where they really stood against others - and so did there dads !
Very true for a lot of High Schools;
However, for some schools "Daddy ball" is replaced by "Political ball", where the who you know supersedes talent
This might be true for 1 or 2 'bench' spots, but do people really believe this happens that often?? The HS coaching staff wants and needs to put the best product on the field that they can. With that, they won't leave too much talent on the sidelines. Of course, this is JMHO.
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UGA12
29 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2011 : 10:44:13
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Some things never change. I understand it now, but even 19 years ago when I was in HS there were Fundraisers in August for anyone interested in playing ball in the spring. Hmmm....I believe daddy ball still exist in HS to some level. Maybe not because the HS coach's son is on the team, but because that kid who was not as talented as others makes it because of daddy's wallet and contribution to the booster club.
quote:
Originally posted by ramman999
quote:
Originally posted by jongamefan
great thing we saw about high school ball was that all this dads sons and friends sons favortism nonsense + manipulation went strait out the window
thats when the previous dad's favored kids found out the way things really were and where they really stood against others - and so did there dads !
Very true for a lot of High Schools;
However, for some schools "Daddy ball" is replaced by "Political ball", where the who you know supersedes talent
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coachdan06
433 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2011 : 00:58:13
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things are so much different these days and let me say that is a shame.
when Dan was a high school player there want any money coming from the parents to the school there wasn't any travel teams just little league allstars there weren't any parents riding the volunteer coach of a youth baseball team so they could force their kids in positions not qualified for
its funny but i really don't remember parents coming to our high school games and that may be because there wasnt any bleachers to sit on !
im happy to report expensive money to play ball and social climbing through kids sports just wasn't the tone of the times back then in Atlanta
if you got a high school coach who plays it strait up and no politics about money or about parents work for the school system etc then treat him with due respect and say thanks to him for teaching your kids about honesty.
they know when its honest and when its not .
quote:
Originally posted by ChinMusic
quote:
Originally posted by ramman999
quote:
Originally posted by jongamefan
great thing we saw about high school ball was that all this dads sons and friends sons favortism nonsense + manipulation went strait out the window
thats when the previous dad's favored kids found out the way things really were and where they really stood against others - and so did there dads !
Very true for a lot of High Schools;
However, for some schools "Daddy ball" is replaced by "Political ball", where the who you know supersedes talent
This might be true for 1 or 2 'bench' spots, but do people really believe this happens that often?? The HS coaching staff wants and needs to put the best product on the field that they can. With that, they won't leave too much talent on the sidelines. Of course, this is JMHO.
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baseballmom1
6 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2011 : 15:01:04
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It is to the point of putting kids in positions that dont know what in the world they are doing. if you are going to play daddy ball dont do it when the win or lose is at stake. which is what happens more time than not with our team. you do the batting averages and the ones that have high averages are at the bottom and coaches son which has a low average is of course at top cause his son worries where he bats. it is just not right for all the kids that are pretty good players and have to be treated like this. and it really does not matter where you go it will happen. i am just saying
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2011 : 19:34:52
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quote:
Originally posted by jongamefan
STAR: that is interesting
but what age group(s) do you speak of here?
quote:
Originally posted by AllStar
quote:
Originally posted by davidh6265
I'm not defending "daddyball" at all, but GENERALLY SPEAKING, coaches' sons are better ball players than the average kid on the team. Maybe because those dads have spent a lot more time throwing the ball in the front yard with the kids from a very early age.
I just did a quick, unscientifc review of 5 JV rosters with players that I am familiar with. It looks like about 50% of the players' dads coached them at one time or another that I know of for sure. I don't know how many of them are playing a lot, a little or not at all.
I think Alter Ego took a swag at some percentages that are probably pretty realistic, i.e. daddy ball exists but is probably not as prevalent/universal as you would think from reading this board. Especially in travel. Could be a case of disgruntled customers being more vocal than satisfied ones.
Of course past results are not indicative of future returns and your mileage may vary.
I didn't see this when you asked it. Sorry. 15's and some 16's.
Caveat, I don't know every kid, so I was just looking at who I knew that did and didn't. On my son's team about 2/3 of the Freshman were coaches' sons (funny, college basketball announcers usually think that's a good thing). The two Freshmen that played the most weren't coaches' kids, but as far as I know they have played the most on most of their teams. The two Freshmen that played the least also weren't coaches' kids.
I think the final answer is, "it depends". |
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baseballmom1
6 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2011 : 11:13:10
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| Yes it does depend, NOrmally it would not be a problem but my issue is when it is when you are winning and have a good chance at winning the game and a coach decides to put starter players on the bench to play their kids or a disgruntly parents kids and it causes you to lose the game. WE are talking about the last inning not a middle or being inning where you could at least have a chance to come back. |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2011 : 13:05:49
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quote:
Originally posted by baseballmom1
Yes it does depend, NOrmally it would not be a problem but my issue is when it is when you are winning and have a good chance at winning the game and a coach decides to put starter players on the bench to play their kids or a disgruntly parents kids and it causes you to lose the game. WE are talking about the last inning not a middle or being inning where you could at least have a chance to come back.
Depends, I guess, on the team's goals. Whether it's a bracket game or not. Maybe some other factors involved that I'm not aware of. No guarantee the starters would have won the game. We sat here and watched a Georgia Tech pitcher throw 16 pitches, 14 balls in an ACC tourney game, so don't think meltdowns end at 11, 12, 13 etc.
Players don't develop if they don't play. Even coaches' kids. But if your #1 priority is winning, there are coaches/teams who share that goal. |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2011 : 08:13:18
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quote:
Originally posted by salu
A big pet peeve of mine is the "dad coach" who says "I don't play daddy ball, I yell at my son more than any other kid".
That is the definition of daddy ball.
A good coach should give equal critisism, praise and attention to each player. The fact that you yell at your son the most makes you a huge daddy ball coach.
Are there teams in your son's age group with non-dad coaches? That might be a good option. |
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rustybucket
67 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2011 : 08:21:25
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Back to the OP's original question regarding kids playing multiple positions....
To me there's a HUGE difference between playing a position and learning a position. Have the kids learned the footwork required for the positions they're being bounced around to? Do they have a full understanding of the assignments this position has to cover? From my experience probably not.... People spend a lifetime learning the intricacies of ONE position.
It's tough enough for a kid to learn 1 position well, much less every position. Sure they can get their feet wet with several positions but to say a player's learning how to play every position is usually saying they are learning to play NONE of the positions.
With my teams I try to make sure that each kid is somewhat fluent in 3 positions. Of those three, one is always an outfield position. When they're young all the kids hate playing outfield, until someone actually starts explaining the outfield positions to them. Once the kid starts learning the proper footwork and the new grounder fielding positions they start to respect the positions more. Most kids think 'In outfield you just stand out there and catch balls hit to you'... well it's quite a bit more involved than that. Everything you do in the outfield is different than what you do in the infield... from how you throw, to how you catch a ground ball.
I guess long story short... rotating kids in and out of positions during a game is NOT teaching them to play those positions. Spending time with them in practice fully explaining and drilling that position, working on footwork...etc IS teaching them to play that position.
One thing that I do feel is a detriment to the kids is rotating the positions every -or- every other inning during a game. I like to start kids in a position and let them play there at least for half the game. I think rotating every inning is asking for trouble. How can a child get mentally prepared for a position if they're not sure where they will be playing the next inning? I've had coaches not release the lineups to the kids until they were about to take the field in the first inning. The anxiety on these kids is huge not knowing and being able to mentally prepare for the position they would play.
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2playersmom
59 Posts |
Posted - 06/06/2011 : 09:37:26
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Dan I love your insight here and yes the ' world ' has changed inside youth sports far too much to the serious side of things
You reference social climbing and sadly that is what much of the drama and disgruntlement is about.
My sons were never coached by their father so I can say honest that many times the daddy ball complaint is just an excuse for your son not playing well or not playing much
Ask the kid players and they will tell you honest who is a player and who isnt to them its still very much a game :)
quote:
Originally posted by coachdan06
things are so much different these days and let me say that is a shame.
when Dan was a high school player there want any money coming from the parents to the school there wasn't any travel teams just little league allstars there weren't any parents riding the volunteer coach of a youth baseball team so they could force their kids in positions not qualified for
its funny but i really don't remember parents coming to our high school games and that may be because there wasnt any bleachers to sit on !
im happy to report expensive money to play ball and social climbing through kids sports just wasn't the tone of the times back then in Atlanta
if you got a high school coach who plays it strait up and no politics about money or about parents work for the school system etc then treat him with due respect and say thanks to him for teaching your kids about honesty.
they know when its honest and when its not .
[quote]Originally posted by ChinMusic
[quote]Originally posted by ramman999
[quote]Originally posted by jongamefan
great thing we saw about high school ball was that all this dads sons and friends sons favortism nonsense + manipulation went strait out the window
thats when the previous dad's favored kids found out the way things really were and where they really stood against others - and so did there dads !
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Newbie BB Mom
141 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2011 : 11:09:20
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quote:
Originally posted by rustybucket
I guess long story short... rotating kids in and out of positions during a game is NOT teaching them to play those positions. Spending time with them in practice fully explaining and drilling that position, working on footwork...etc IS teaching them to play that position.
Rustybucket, your thoughtful post has really resonated with me, and I have a question related to your comment above.
After playing rec ball for several years, my 8 year old son is on his first travel ball team. In rec ball, he generally played second base and was very good at it. On the travel team, the coach seems to have decided he is an outfielder. We knew this was a possibility and prepared our son for it. What bothers us is that he is only getting training on playing in the outfield during practices. The coach breaks the team into small groups depending on which positions they play and focuses on the skills they need for that position. How can our son progress as an infielder (or even maintain his infield skills) if he doesn't get any infield coaching during practices? I should add that our son, who is a very gifted and highly motivated athelete, had the misfortune of being born into a family of artists and thinkers (okay, bookish nerds) who know nothing about baseball, so he is way beyond our ability to help him.
As a new member of this team, we don't want to ruffle any feathers at all. Is it out of line to ask the coach if he would work with our son on his infield skills during practices? Is there a more diplomatic why to broach this topic with the coach? Or is it best to let sleeping dogs lie? I really don't want to step on any toes! |
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rustybucket
67 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2011 : 12:02:47
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@Newbie BB Mom,
I feel your pain, it's tough seeing your kid stuck in a position you don't really feel they can excel at. It's even worse when that's the only instruction they gain.
I too break my kids into small groups during practice to work on position specific items, however like I stated I try to teach the kids 3 different positions so it takes some maneuvering during practice to make sure everyone can attend their group. I get around this by having the position specific training while the other players are doing 'other' groups, such as hitting, base mechanics or agility. This way a single player can attend the outfield position specific session as well as the middle infield or first base position sessions.
For you directly, I would suggest being careful about directly asking the coach to play (or practice) your child in a certain position. I would rather urge you to ask the coach something to the effect... 'What does little Johnny need to work on to have a shot at the infield/second base?' Obviously the coach has made his decision that little Johnny is not quite up to snuff to be in his infield, so ask him what you need to work on. You yourself said that your family is not necessarily up to snuff on baseball, and that's fine, honestly most of the families who think they know everything about baseball still have lots to learn. So what looks good to you at second base may look horrible to someone in the know.
I would suggest that you have little Johnny attend a couple of position specific camps this summer. For second base you'll be looking for middle infielder camps. Some places offer day camps that only last a few hours, some offer several day long camps. I'm not in your area so I don't have any specific suggestions but I'm sure you have more to choose from than us down here in south Georgia lol. These camps (if they're worth their salt) will give little Johnny the fundamentals and mechanics that he can take home and work on in the backyard. After a while of doing these camps little Johnny or you may mention in passing to the coach that he's been attending these position specific camps and been doing a lot of out of practice work and that he may want to take a second look at him in the position.
I would also suggest that you attend the camps/clinics with him and watch/listen closely. Learn the position and the drills that little Johnny needs to succeed at his position. If you are a learned individual you will appreciate the intricacies of position play in baseball. It's really not just stand out there and catch grounders. You don't have to be an ex major league player to work with little Johnny in the backyard or even inside the house (yes mom's I said inside the house). I honestly think of the best exercise a young player can do to develop hand/eye coordination is to toss a tennis ball (or softer ball) to them inside the house. Work on short hops, backhands..etc. All the things that scares kids with a hard ball and full speed. Get them comfortable with a tennis ball and it will come more naturally on the field. Put little Johnny in the fielding position (feet staggered, butt down, glove out front, head up...etc) and make him hold it.
You don't have to be on a baseball field (or even have a baseball) to practice baseball!!!
I visit our local college practices on a regular basis, and it's amazing... you rarely EVER see the guys out in the field shagging grounders. You see them inside working with tennis balls, with heavy balls, hitting off tees, hitting bags, working on CORE mechanics. You see them working through moves in slow motion, you see them preparing for the mental part of the game.
What do you see when you visit the local rec practice? Field loaded with kids, and 2 or 3 boys batting. Boredom on every kids face except the batter.
Sorry I've been long-winded and gone off on tangents.... long story short... lol. make little Johnny a cracker jack second basemen and the coach will be forced to use him... that is unless the coaches son is on second already lol. |
Edited by - rustybucket on 06/07/2011 13:12:26 |
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Newbie BB Mom
141 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2011 : 14:17:20
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quote:
Originally posted by rustybucket
For you directly, I would suggest being careful about directly asking the coach to play (or practice) your child in a certain position. I would rather urge you to ask the coach something to the effect... 'What does little Johnny need to work on to have a shot at the infield/second base?' Obviously the coach has made his decision that little Johnny is not quite up to snuff to be in his infield, so ask him what you need to work on. You yourself said that your family is not necessarily up to snuff on baseball, and that's fine, honestly most of the families who think they know everything about baseball still have lots to learn. So what looks good to you at second base may look horrible to someone in the know.
Thanks, rustybucket, we'll try your question if the right moment arises. We like our coach. He knows his baseball and uses a good mix of direct constructive criticism and praise. I think he likes our son and thinks he's a valuable addition to his team. So, we don't want to offend him or put him on the spot. We are also aware that, as parents and non-baseball ones at that, we probably aren't the best judge of our son's abilities.
quote:
I would suggest that you have little Johnny attend a couple of position specific camps this summer. For second base you'll be looking for middle infielder camps. Some places offer day camps that only last a few hours, some offer several day long camps. I'm not in your area so I don't have any specific suggestions but I'm sure you have more to choose from than us down here in south Georgia lol. These camps (if they're worth their salt) will give little Johnny the fundamentals and mechanics that he can take home and work on in the backyard. After a while of doing these camps little Johnny or you may mention in passing to the coach that he's been attending these position specific camps and been doing a lot of out of practice work and that he may want to take a second look at him in the position.
We have looked into baseball camps a bit, but perhaps we need to make it a priority. Our son would be thrilled. He'd throw a baseball around all day long if he could. He does toss a tennis ball in the house as much as he thinks he can get away with it. And, yes, I have confiscated a few when they got too close to something breakable.
Thanks for your good advice!
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ramman999
241 Posts |
Posted - 06/07/2011 : 14:17:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Newbie BB Mom
The coach breaks the team into small groups depending on which positions they play and focuses on the skills they need for that position. How can our son progress as an infielder (or even maintain his infield skills) if he doesn't get any infield coaching during practices?
I am not sure about track of the team you are on, but it's definitely not development. To me, lots of teams hang their hat on the fact they are there for "player development" but the reality of what you described is anything but..
When we started travel, first at 8u, we drilled all players at both positions, and we would rotate players - this is a practice I've continued or been a part of to this day. ALL of our regular infielders take outfield, and ALL of our outfielders take infield. The only position that receives instruction limited to a select few is catcher - we have 5 that have seen game action.
We have at least 2 backups at every position, and during tournament weekend every player will get time at their primary position and secondaries. True sometimes you suffer when your "A" lineup is not in, but if you chose a development track, you need to instruct equally, because come high school you can't have 9 shortstops or 9 center fielders..
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moving players around from position to position
