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KoopsDad
73 Posts |
 Posted - 03/23/2011 : 14:13:23
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| This past weekend in the S-NIT, because of the score of our game, an ump actually told one of our hitters that if the ball was anywhere other than in the dirt that he would call it a strike and that he better swing. Another batter (struggling in a slump already) had two pitches literally in his eyes called strikes forcing him to swing at another poor pitch for fear of striking out, made an out, further frustrating him. When questioned about the "extreme" strike zone we were then forced to hit with, the ump took opposition and actually followed a coach back to the dugout telling him that "he had a lot to learn about baseball" as if calls this extreme were common practice. In ANOTHER game, after a 7-0 first inning, we were approached by an ump and told our strike zone would be expanded to keep the game from getting out of hand. Again, this was after the FIRST INNING in bracket play against a good team. Here is the question. Keeping in perspective that the ones really hurt in this situation are the kids at the plate when the fun of hitting is taken from them, SHOULD UMPS BE ALLOWED TO EXPAND (DRASTICALLY AT TIMES) THE STRIKE ZONE TO HELP KEEP THE SCORE UNDER CONTROL? Should the tourney director or head ump encourage the umps to keep the strike zone "by the book" regardless of score? Should a team be "penalized" for having a good day at the plate, for the hard work that was paying off at the plate, or for being that much better than their opponent? What are your thoughts? |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2011 : 16:42:44
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| Umpires should NEVER change the strike zone based on the situation in a game. If they do, they should be fired - in my opinion. It is unethical. They should never call close plays in favor of one team or the other based on the situation in a game either. A strike is a strike, a ball is a ball, an out is an out and safe is safe, regardless of the score. |
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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2011 : 17:20:28
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| The umps should call the game at the game presents itself. A strike is a strike is a strike and if its not a strike then it must be a ball. It is not the umpires duty to level the playing field. It is not now nor was it ever intended that the umpire should do anything except apply his best judgement and to call the game to the best of his or hers ability. The game will take care of itself. I was there and heard the umpire state that he was expanding the strike zone which was not as wrong as how he expanded it. Give the underdogs the benefit of the doubt but do not call strikes above the head or below the big toe. We cannot teach our kids to swing at bad pitches no matter what the score. The coaches work hard to teach patience at the plate and this destroys what should be being taught. |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2011 : 17:49:32
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| Another instance of an umpire feeling the need to control something. Umpires IMO should NEVER change the strikezone, as everyone's catch phrase on here "what's that teaching the kids??" It is absolutely ridiculous for an umpire to try and control the score of ANY game!! If opposing teams take offense to getting beat so bad maybe they are playing a tournament they don't belong in?? Two years ago we beat a team 34-2 and 90% of our boys were hitting left handed, maybe it comes down to some teams entering a tournament where they just can't compete?? |
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longball1
34 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2011 : 19:28:26
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| I certainly hope Bubba is reading this , all anyone is hoping to get out of the umpires is a good unbiased called game. We are not paying our entry fees to come to a major tournament of this magnitude and have some umpire change the rules of the game. This was the 12u major games at Gerald Matthews park. |
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seminole tony
147 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2011 : 19:29:03
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My sons high school jv team was leading the game 17-3 in the 4th when the ump started doing the same thing to our children. He wasn't doing it against any one team, but to both teams, trying to get the game over with. He knew the run rules and was just putting the other team out of their misery. Was it wrong??? Yes... but there was a reason. Sure we traveled a long way to watch him play but did any child really gain anything out of that beating?? The head coach was holding runners and not allowing kids to steal even on passed balls.
We had already subbed players in and the opposing team was short handed. Playing in games like this is when kids get hurt because they don't take it as seriously towards the end of the game.
Keep a defined strike zone in real games and expand it if the circumstances dictate it.
Maybe not the politically correct answer but a fair to both teams answer. |
Edited by - seminole tony on 03/23/2011 22:23:46 |
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wareagle
324 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2011 : 19:43:19
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Really depends on age group and tournament. In probably 11u and up it should never be done. Younger age groups can sometimes have matchups that are complete mismatches. could be due to new startup team or forced to play outside of class because of tournament situations or just inexperienced coaches putting thier team in a bad situation. If you have a team that for several innings walks almost every batter, no one is learning anything. Expand the zone and get the game over. I have been on both sides of these kinds of games and it is no fun for either team.
After 10U coaches should know about the other teams, and not put his team in situations they cant handle. |
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mjones9226
81 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2011 : 20:34:12
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| It still amazes me how many bad ones there are, and with the large increase in teams over the last 2 years it constantly gets worse. Had one 2 weeks ago giving the outside corner, or that is what he called it. Catcher would set up 3 balls or more off the plate, and if he hit the mitt...STRIIIIKE. The umpire said the pitcher should be rewarded for hitting his target. What an idiot. I am all for working in and out, and hitting your spots a ball on or off, but calling a pitch a kid would have to step across the plate just to foul off. The amount of these basball guru's who feel the need to reinvent the game is amazing. They must really be scraping the bottom of the barrel. Had another a few weeks back who was so rotund he was instructing the catcher where to set up, because he was too lazy to get down. Coach said something to him, asking him not to talk to his catcher, and just call the game, and the little pot belly went off and showed his butt royally in front of a bunch of kids. Lazy and classless, yep the umpiring just gets better and better all the time. |
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6bomber
68 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2011 : 21:42:15
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| i agree Spartan4, you will run into teams who think they are ready to play up. most prove they can do it. occasionally it can get out of hand. IMO it is better for the kids on both teams that they know what are strikes. it does not help anyone to be forced to swing at bad pitches, rec. player or elite player. |
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PerfectGame
55 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2011 : 22:30:11
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| I don't think it should happen but it does. We had a game where the ump called EVERYthing a strike. Everybody that watched the game felt it was an effort to speed up the end of the game (we were in overtime). It was tough to see our kids get strikes called on pitches in the dirt, over their heads, etc... very frustrating. |
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G-Man
326 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 00:23:40
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Some umpires will change the strike zone in a game where another team is getting blown out. I dont disagree with it. It would be nice if teams would take the stance to curb the slaugter but that isnt always the case. So sometimes umpires take it upon themselves to do what I believe is right. I know we have played for teams in the past that if we were blowing a team away the coach would have the kids either bunt the ball back toward the pitcher or have the right handed batters hit left handed.
In the younger age groups its the classy thing to do. In the older age groups if its not done your batters may find a few fastballs WAY INSIDE.
quote:
Originally posted by 6bomber
i agree Spartan4, you will run into teams who think they are ready to play up. most prove they can do it. occasionally it can get out of hand. IMO it is better for the kids on both teams that they know what are strikes. it does not help anyone to be forced to swing at bad pitches, rec. player or elite player.
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christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 09:12:49
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| Interesting topic...... |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 09:49:33
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quote:
Originally posted by G-Man
Some umpires will change the strike zone in a game where another team is getting blown out. I dont disagree with it. It would be nice if teams would take the stance to curb the slaugter but that isnt always the case. So sometimes umpires take it upon themselves to do what I believe is right. I know we have played for teams in the past that if we were blowing a team away the coach would have the kids either bunt the ball back toward the pitcher or have the right handed batters hit left handed.
In the younger age groups its the classy thing to do. In the older age groups if its not done your batters may find a few fastballs WAY INSIDE.
quote:
Originally posted by 6bomber
i agree Spartan4, you will run into teams who think they are ready to play up. most prove they can do it. occasionally it can get out of hand. IMO it is better for the kids on both teams that they know what are strikes. it does not help anyone to be forced to swing at bad pitches, rec. player or elite player.
I just don't agree with this. I have seen too many games that appear to be blow outs, only to have the losing team come back and win, or at least make it close. Especially at the older age groups, you can never count a win untill the game is over. At 13u, we were down in a semi-final game 8-0 in the 4th inning. Came back to win the game 9-8. I have seen HS games where a team is up by 5, 6 ,7, 8 runs, only to have the losing team come back to win - or make it close.
I really don't think the umpire should change what he is doing to favor either side. It is not the umps job to help either team. It is the umps job to call the game without bias. It's hard for me to believe that so many of you baseball guys are on the side of the umps being biased in any situation. Who is to say when that ump should start doing this? What if the ump chose to be biased towards one team or the other - and you didn't agree with when he started doing it? I think you would be up in arms about it. The umps should call the game the way it should be called regardless of the situation. Period. |
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momshell
103 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 10:24:44
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| Well said bballman! |
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Catch3dad
90 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 10:40:40
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Don't agree at all with umpires doing anything to impact the final results of a game. Many, if not all, tourneys have pool play or round robin games in which the results impact the seeding. Also, most events have pitch counts or innings pitch limits. If team A is playing team B and A is winning easily, so be it. The rules are already set up to prevent blow outs with run or mercy rules. End the game early, save pitchers and innings pitched.
Plus if the umpire in one game starts to squeeze the strike zone against team A because they are winning, team B may score more runs than they normally would. Runs scored against teams is generally one of the significant factors in seeding teams. I could go on and on, but bottom line is its wrong and umpires and TD should be ban if they are aware of it or condone it in ANY way.
Just my 2 cents.
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ripacad
4 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 10:46:56
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| most umps do not even realize that the kids see this "expanded" strike zone and are completely deflated by the double standard. "Even the umps feel sorry for us" It's a tough pill to swallow for that team trying to play up and is just having a bad day. |
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christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 11:08:40
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| Can I ask a hypothetical question....say there is a last game in Pool Play on Saturday Night, game is a blow out, bottom of 3rd, Home winning, visiting pitcher is clueless like he has never pitched, balks 3-4 times in an inning, HC is 3BC, during defensive timeout, comes down to the plate to talk to his batter, and with catcher at the mound with the coach, looks directly at PU and says dont call the balks and he is OK with a generous strike zone...and then looks at the batter and tells him if its in the vicinity of the plate blue is gonna call it. PU can hear both sides parents begging for mercy. Opinions??? |
Edited by - christheump on 03/24/2011 11:27:46 |
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Lefty8
67 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 11:27:50
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| My son actually went up to the umpire on the game he was getting ready to pitch at and very nicely asked how small or where his strike zone was going to me. He told my son, then told him not to ever ask him that again because he just needs to pitch and not worry about it. R U Kidding! Of course he needs to worry about it, he needs to know how much he is off if he is missing some! |
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G-Man
326 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 11:37:29
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Im not talking 6,7,8,9 - o type games. I am talking games that I have seen where the score is 18-1 24-0 those type games. Games that you can look at and know they are over.
quote:
Originally posted by bballman
quote:
Originally posted by G-Man
Some umpires will change the strike zone in a game where another team is getting blown out. I dont disagree with it. It would be nice if teams would take the stance to curb the slaugter but that isnt always the case. So sometimes umpires take it upon themselves to do what I believe is right. I know we have played for teams in the past that if we were blowing a team away the coach would have the kids either bunt the ball back toward the pitcher or have the right handed batters hit left handed.
In the younger age groups its the classy thing to do. In the older age groups if its not done your batters may find a few fastballs WAY INSIDE.
quote:
Originally posted by 6bomber
i agree Spartan4, you will run into teams who think they are ready to play up. most prove they can do it. occasionally it can get out of hand. IMO it is better for the kids on both teams that they know what are strikes. it does not help anyone to be forced to swing at bad pitches, rec. player or elite player.
I just don't agree with this. I have seen too many games that appear to be blow outs, only to have the losing team come back and win, or at least make it close. Especially at the older age groups, you can never count a win untill the game is over. At 13u, we were down in a semi-final game 8-0 in the 4th inning. Came back to win the game 9-8. I have seen HS games where a team is up by 5, 6 ,7, 8 runs, only to have the losing team come back to win - or make it close.
I really don't think the umpire should change what he is doing to favor either side. It is not the umps job to help either team. It is the umps job to call the game without bias. It's hard for me to believe that so many of you baseball guys are on the side of the umps being biased in any situation. Who is to say when that ump should start doing this? What if the ump chose to be biased towards one team or the other - and you didn't agree with when he started doing it? I think you would be up in arms about it. The umps should call the game the way it should be called regardless of the situation. Period.
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 12:15:42
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quote:
Originally posted by christheump
Can I ask a hypothetical question....say there is a last game in Pool Play on Saturday Night, game is a blow out, bottom of 3rd, Home winning, visiting pitcher is clueless like he has never pitched, balks 3-4 times in an inning, HC is 3BC, during defensive timeout, comes down to the plate to talk to his batter, and with catcher at the mound with the coach, looks directly at PU and says dont call the balks and he is OK with a generous strike zone...and then looks at the batter and tells him if its in the vicinity of the plate blue is gonna call it. PU can hear both sides parents begging for mercy. Opinions???
Doesn't matter. Just call the game. That is what you are paid to do. Lot's of good points on how this could effect seeding and such in previous posts. It's not an ump's job to try to get a game over early or anything else. Just to call the game. |
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mjones9226
81 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 12:25:01
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| Chris, I think even that brings too much subjective judgement into the game. Umpires are there to ensure the players safety, and enforce the rules, period. It is not there job to reinvent or loosen the rules. If a team finds themselves in that position, they should rethink entering a tournament, and learn a hard lesson. I say this because it is not always that black and white, and penalizes the player at the plate. Stick to the rules, and let the game take its course. |
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Outtahere
43 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 12:27:06
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| Pool play game Sat. afternoon @ Gerald Matthew in 11U division. Score is 10-2 in the 3rd...Ump walks over to our coach and tells him he is opening up the strike zone to speed the game along. BTW we were the team with 10 at this point. Right or wrong? |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 12:27:11
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| Your job is to call the game!! A ball is a ball a strike is a strike!! It is NEVER the umpires job to decide the winner/loser or score of a game...Regardless of what the 3rd base coach says |
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ripacad
4 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 12:46:19
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| Should an umpire ever be influenced by a coach, parents or spectators? |
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davidh6265
27 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 13:27:55
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I'm an ump, and I say no, the umpire should NOT expand the strike zone except in a similar situation described by Chris (above).
With that said, in tournaments, we have more games to follow and keeping with the time schedule is VERY important. Otherwise, we may all be at the ballpark well past midnight.
I remember a tournament I was working last year for high school aged kids....the score was something like 20-1. The base umpire (30 year vet) signaled for me to expand the strike zone. I didn't call time out or anything but when I got a chance I asked the winning coach and he did not mind me expanding the strike zone. In a situation like that, you have to do what you have to do. The kids understood it too and were ok with it. |
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northgwinnet
22 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 13:44:42
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| As an umpire, you will never put your integrity at risk if you call a ball a ball and a strike a strike. Time limits and run rules are there to deal with blow outs. If you change the zone to accommodate a game out of control, the focus now turns to you, the umpire. That is not where you want it to be. As an umpire, some games are long and tough, others are not so tough. Either way, if you remain consistent, regardless of the circumstances, the focus will never be on you. |
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Should UMPS change strike zone based on score?
