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12uCoach
357 Posts |
 Posted - 03/19/2011 : 11:31:22
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Happened Friday night. With back foot still on the pitchers plate, Lefty pitcher steps to first and realizes that runner has left the base. The pitcher turns 90 degrees and throws to second. Umpire calls my player out during rundown.
Umpire tells me that the lefty can:
Fake the throw to first
Turn towatd second with out stepping off the rubber and
Throw to an unoccupied base without balking.
<sigh>
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2011 : 12:22:32
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quote:
Originally posted by 12uCoach
Happened Friday night. With back foot still on the pitchers plate, Lefty pitcher steps to first and realizes that runner has left the base. The pitcher turns 90 degrees and throws to second. Umpire calls my player out during rundown.
Umpire tells me that the lefty can:
Fake the throw to first
Turn towatd second with out stepping off the rubber and
Throw to an unoccupied base without balking.
<sigh>
There is a reason these umpires officiate 10,11, and 12U games!! Last night we got wore out but both teams were arguing about the strike zone. It was RIDICULOUS!! I for one will never tell our players to swing at a pitch around the nose because an umpire continues to call that pitch a strike. Once again Super NIT officiating is coming to life!! We had a pitch so far outside our catcher had to dive and the opposing batter was still rung up, next pitch catcher doesn't move and it is a ball!! Almost as pitiful as the field we played on. |
Edited by - Spartan4 on 03/19/2011 15:21:44 |
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4bagger
131 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2011 : 11:42:46
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Were you playing by USSSA rules?
USSSA Rule 8.05.D General Statement Concerning Balks. 4th line down labeled (B) states With a runner on 1B, the pitcher may make a complete turn, without hesitating toward 1B and throw to 2B. This is not to be interpreted as as throwing to an unoccupied base.
It doesn't say anything about clearing the rubber, fake throws, etc. But your description sounds like he hesitated towards 1B before turning to 2B for the throw so either way a balk should have probably been called. |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2011 : 13:57:15
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| Just a lack of good umpires compared to the amount of travel ball games/teams around the Atlanta area. The 14U guys aren't as bad, and the older age groups seem to have more consistent strike zones as well. Last night one of our best hitters was rung up when the catcher who was already set up outside dove to his right and still missed the ball....Blue said, "it was on the corner".....It very well might have been on the corner of the opposite batters box, but it is what it is. We got a few pitch calls go our way as well, just seems to me the younger ages get hosed by PITIFUL umpiring. Usually one team is losing and complaining, but I find it funny when 3-4-5 parents from both teams are complaining about the inconsistency and horrible umpiring. |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2011 : 14:46:44
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Coaches get fired and players get benched for messing up in close games, but apparently it is OK for game officials because, "they're human"
Just saw that on an ESPN comment.... |
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christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2011 : 10:04:39
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Shew......Glad it wasnt me.... lol...
A pitcher can throw to an un-occupied base if attempting to make a play on a runner stealing, in the case 2B, provided he has not committed a balk before the throw to the base. |
Edited by - christheump on 03/21/2011 10:32:43 |
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jdrew
30 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2011 : 11:03:12
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As a former pitcher (lefty), I always wondered if I could attempt such a move and it be legal. After coaching and reading the rules, I now know that this is a legal move as long as it is a continuous motion. It is always a cat and mouse game between LHP and runners. About the only way to neutralize a LHP is to go on first movement. If a LHP doesn't know this rule/move, then it will take two throws to get a picked off runner out.
christheump.....At what point is the runner considered "stealing" the base? Is there a distance consideration or is the ump looking at commitment to the base? What about a fake steal where a LHP turns and throws to 2nd? Balk? I have heard that Rule 8.0.5D is considered a legal move as long as the stealing runner does not retreat back to 1B. I would love to hear your take on this.... |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2011 : 12:22:18
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Even with this info, I would think it's still risky. First, this is a USSSA rule, so not necessarily something which might be acknowledged by other organizations. Second, you're counting on any and all umps to be aware of this rule. I've seen balks called so inconsistently that I wouldn't begin to assume an ump would be aware unless I asked him prior to the game. I saw about 100 examples this weekend of pitchers making a continuous motion of their pitch to the batter with runners on base and not even pretending to come set. I saw one balk called all weekend, and it was for something other than coming set.
quote:
Originally posted by jdrew
As a former pitcher (lefty), I always wondered if I could attempt such a move and it be legal. After coaching and reading the rules, I now know that this is a legal move as long as it is a continuous motion. It is always a cat and mouse game between LHP and runners. About the only way to neutralize a LHP is to go on first movement. If a LHP doesn't know this rule/move, then it will take two throws to get a picked off runner out.
christheump.....At what point is the runner considered "stealing" the base? Is there a distance consideration or is the ump looking at commitment to the base? What about a fake steal where a LHP turns and throws to 2nd? Balk? I have heard that Rule 8.0.5D is considered a legal move as long as the stealing runner does not retreat back to 1B. I would love to hear your take on this....
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biggin
174 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 07:44:58
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| I think I no the answer but please help me if u can. While toeing rubber before comin set can u reach in glove for ball and then come set. Also here's a good 1 for ya after a foul ball pitcher goes to come set commits balk called by field ump. Homeplate ump says he never said play so no balk |
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christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 08:56:50
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quote:
Originally posted by biggin
I think I no the answer but please help me if u can. While toeing rubber before comin set can u reach in glove for ball and then come set. Also here's a good 1 for ya after a foul ball pitcher goes to come set commits balk called by field ump. Homeplate ump says he never said play so no balk
Nope...but that can be a ticky-tac call at younger ages depending on when they reach in an get the ball..
Thats why it is important to verbalize that you have put the ball in play. |
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biggin
174 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 11:53:03
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| Christheump ,so what u r sayin is anything that happens can be up for debate if ump doesn't say play wow can create a lot of issues. Let say u never veralise play pitcher pitches ball batter hits homer the coach could just say doesn't count u never said play. c |
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christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 13:22:05
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quote:
Originally posted by biggin
Christheump ,so what u r sayin is anything that happens can be up for debate if ump doesn't say play wow can create a lot of issues. Let say u never veralise play pitcher pitches ball batter hits homer the coach could just say doesn't count u never said play. c
I will give ya an accountants response...It Depends...:) |
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bstand
56 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 13:22:14
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| Had one happen two weekends ago where the ump in the field called time to call a balk on the pitcher. Pitcher continued delivery to the plate, and my batter stepped out because time was called in the field. After a conference, home plate umpire said "no pitch, no balk", because he had never put the ball in play. I guess it is important for the ball to be put in play, because anything that happens subsequently gets wiped. Pretty crazy. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 15:34:21
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The real problem with this (and I see it all the time) is that he shouldn't call time to call a balk. MLB rules (which is the default for most youth leagues except where specified differently) a balk creates a dead ball "unless" the batter reaches first on a hit, error, base on balls, hit by pitch, or otherwise and all other runners advance at least one base in which case the play proceeds without reference to the balk. For example, if the pitch is hit for a home run, or even a single where runners end up at 1st and 3rd, the coach can choose whether he wants the balk or the result of the play. High School rules the ball as immediately dead, so unless your game described below was a HS game, time should not have been called in order to call the balk.
quote:
Originally posted by bstand
Had one happen two weekends ago where the ump in the field called time to call a balk on the pitcher. Pitcher continued delivery to the plate, and my batter stepped out because time was called in the field. After a conference, home plate umpire said "no pitch, no balk", because he had never put the ball in play. I guess it is important for the ball to be put in play, because anything that happens subsequently gets wiped. Pretty crazy.
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christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 16:58:54
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Laziness will ALWAYS get an umpire in trouble.....I will tell you what I do...If there is a foul ball or time called, as soon as the pitcher toes the rubber I immediately point and say play. I do this everytime no questions asked, its the OCD in me....
bstand, the proper thing to do is LOUDLY verbalize balk and let the play develop. This is how I was taught. Usually the pitcher will stop once he hears balk, but is not required to, although it is in his best interest to do so because if he pitches and its a hit...the hit stands. This same play happened last year and pitcher pitched and the ball went over the fence... DC came out and said it was a deadball because a balk was called...which is NOT the case. |
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SMASH
253 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2011 : 23:07:41
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| Had a questionable balk call on us this past weekend. My pitcher(righty) wheeled with a jump pivot to throw to first but did not throw the ball. This is an obvious balk because you cannot fake a throw to first unless you step off the back of the rubber. My problem was that the infield umpire did not see it. My pitcher then toed the rubber to prepare for his next pitch. At this time the home plate umpire calls time and says something to the effect of "Hey that was a balk" and they reward the baserunner second base. I questioned that the balk was not called in a timely manner and my pitcher had already toed the rubber for the next pitch. The play itself was an obvious balk but the manner in which they called it seemed strange. |
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christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2011 : 16:16:12
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quote:
Originally posted by warrior
Had a questionable balk call on us this past weekend. My pitcher(righty) wheeled with a jump pivot to throw to first but did not throw the ball. This is an obvious balk because you cannot fake a throw to first unless you step off the back of the rubber. My problem was that the infield umpire did not see it. My pitcher then toed the rubber to prepare for his next pitch. At this time the home plate umpire calls time and says something to the effect of "Hey that was a balk" and they reward the baserunner second base. I questioned that the balk was not called in a timely manner and my pitcher had already toed the rubber for the next pitch. The play itself was an obvious balk but the manner in which they called it seemed strange.
Agreed, could have been a slown down in processing the move, but at least they got the call right, which is the most important thing. |
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northgwinnet
22 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 13:29:57
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quote:
Originally posted by warrior
Had a questionable balk call on us this past weekend. My pitcher(righty) wheeled with a jump pivot to throw to first but did not throw the ball. This is an obvious balk because you cannot fake a throw to first unless you step off the back of the rubber. My problem was that the infield umpire did not see it. My pitcher then toed the rubber to prepare for his next pitch. At this time the home plate umpire calls time and says something to the effect of "Hey that was a balk" and they reward the baserunner second base. I questioned that the balk was not called in a timely manner and my pitcher had already toed the rubber for the next pitch. The play itself was an obvious balk but the manner in which they called it seemed strange.
Getting the call right is most important. With only two umpires on the field, there is a lot to look at. Did he step off, did he stop, etc. Good umpires are taught to take their time when making calls to ensure that the initial call is the right call. |
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lownotside
8 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2011 : 12:39:13
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| It's a Balk all day and night! If the pitcher steps to first he has to throw to first regardless of wheather the runner steals or not. Failing to throw to first after stepping to first is a Balk. No matter Little League, USSSA, High school, or MLB. . . |
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Not a balk
