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G-Man
326 Posts |
 Posted - 03/04/2011 : 00:45:05
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Well sometimes these plays do work in the pros. Maybe not as often as they would against other levels of baseball but they do work. Just last night I saw on MLB network where a runner was on 1st. A ball was hit in the gap to the outfield. The 2nd baseman acted as if he fielded the ball and was about to turn a double play which slowed the runner on first and caused him to hesitate at 2nd base and kept him from scoring.
Deeking players at all levels work and this includes MLB level. Maybe not as often but it does work. Even the pitcher 3-1 move if I remembered correctly worked in a MLB game 2 years ago.
quote:
Originally posted by Spartan4
Heater, I have NEVER ONCE seen an umpire catch that!!! I can't believe it sometimes it is so obvious!!.....And to go along with what you said, if the pros could make these trick plays work they would!!! The reason you never see the pitcher fake a throw to the outfield on a pickoff with players diving has nothing to do with class....It would NEVER work!!
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rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 07:40:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Scorekeeper
Bottom of the sixth down by one run, big hitters coming up..................... first batter gets good swing on the ball but it seems to come off the bat dead? Hmmmm? Must have missed the sweet spot. Second batter same thing. Hey did that ball sound funny when it was hit? Third batter crunches the ball and the same strange sound as the ball floats barely to the outfielder? What the heck? Hey! Let me see that ball Mr. Ump.
USSSA stamped leather grade stamped hard competition ball? Nope! Dicks Sporting Goods brand synthetic cover soft $2.99 practice ball.
Now where did that ball magically come from?
So when is it bush and when is it cheating? Or when is it just plain bad sportsmanship? |
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christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 09:50:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Scorekeeper
You better make sure no one but your pitcher touches the ball or walks across the mound as you are changing sides in the middle of an inning.
We had our #1 pitcher put out of the champ game one time because our well meaning right fielder picked the ball up and handed it to the #1 pitcher on his way out to his position. Right fielder now pitcher of record because he held the ball on the mound near the rubber. Complete setup by the other team who had the umps looking for it and had their pitcher place the ball on top of the rubber after out #3.
I would have never called that. |
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touchemall
145 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 11:36:17
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Where in the rules does it say that anyone who touches the ball is considered the pitcher of record? I looked in USSSA and their rule is below. I read it as the pitcher must make an out in order for his time to count towards his innings.
8.05.C.5 For all cumulative totals in this rule, one (1) out equals one-third (1/3) of an inning, two (2) outs equals two-thirds (2/3) of an inning and three (3) outs equals one (1) full inning. A pitcher that pitches in a game and records no outs is not charged with any innings pitched. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 11:54:57
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Genius - When you use it and it works
Bush - When it's used against you and it works
In all seriousness, trick plays are part of the game. The fake throws, hidden ball trick, etc are all within the rules and part of the game. As long as it's the players on the field are taking the responsibility to pull off the "trick", then it's all good and up to the coaches to teach their players not to get caught by these (at least not more than once). It becomes totally bush when the coaches or fans are involved in pulling it off.
What separates a trick play from cheating is a wanton attempt to break the rules. For example, teaching the runner to cut the corner at third is cheating, plain and simple. Intentionally scuffing a ball is cheating. If an umpire watches an entire play and finds nothing illegal, then it's "trick". If he watches and finds violation of rules, it's cheating |
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Scorekeeper
35 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 12:01:54
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Umps called it immediately and had been asked to look for it by the other teams coaches. It was the second inning and our #1 had mowed the team down on 3 strikeouts in the 1st.
Technically a correct ruling I suppose, but I still have no clue what advantaged a team gains by doing that and considered it a low life stunt. It was no secret who was pitching the next 5 innings. Our Right fielder had been doing it the whole tournament, just being a good 9U teammate.
So this poor kid thinks he has blown the game for our team and boohoos crocodile tears for the whole 10 minutes we as coaches argued with the tournament director. Mostly as a stalling tactic to figure out what the heck to do next and warm up a new pitcher. Had to put the right fielder who had never pitched in a game before on the mound for the first batter too.
It ended OK. Our most competitive kids got real serious and blew a 2-1 game wide open with 10 runs in the bottom of the 2nd. It did help that the other teams 3rd base coach was running his mouth the whole inning and told us very loudly that his team could beat us anyday and they didn't need to use such a stunt to do it. Kids heard him and told me they were putting up 10 runs on them that inning. They did it. |
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Scorekeeper
35 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 12:12:35
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""Where in the rules does it say that anyone who touches the ball is considered the pitcher of record? I looked in USSSA and their rule is below. I read it as the pitcher must make an out in order for his time to count towards his innings.""
I am at a loss on that one in the rule book too. But both the umps were high school experienced and highly regarded. It was a World Series type event and the most experienced umps had the champ games.
Umps were on it immediately (2 seconds), told us very loudly Right Fielder was now pitcher of record.
It was ruled a pitching change, because the right fielder touched the rubber while picking the ball up and giving to our returning pitcher. Now remember the ball was intentionally placed on top of the rubber after the 3rd out, they must have assumed the right fielder would come close enough to the rubber to touch it. Right fielder made no physical moves acting as if he was the new pitcher, just picked the ball up while touching the rubber.
And apparently that equated to a pitching change. I'd love to have a full explanation? And to this date still can't figure out what advantage we would have gained even if we would have been trying to confuse the issue over who is pitching?
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Alter-Ego
802 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 12:56:13
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touchemall,
I believe that is in MLB rules, which serve as the basis for rules not specifically called out by either HS or the sanctioning bodies.
As long as I can remember I have heard the example of "the SS runs across the mound and grabs the ball on the way to SS. Once he touches the ball on the mound (does not even have to be on the rubber) he is considered the pitcher of record and must make at least one pitch to a batter."
I would like to hear from the umpires in our community to clarify. I suspect they have a much better explanation than my generalization, above. |
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rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 12:59:12
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Scorekeeper: sounds pretty lame to me too. I've heard about this happening near us and at the 9U age. Ridiculous.
What's to stop some over zealous parent who thinks his kid should be pitching telling his kid to "just go out there and pick up the ball then they HAVE to let you pitch". |
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BatChipper
52 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 13:17:01
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| Saw this once. Actually it happen to our team. We had a runner on third with one out. The batter was walked and took off in a dead sprint to first turned the corner and with the coach telling him to keep running, headed to second. He looked up and had the pitcher dead in his heels trying to tag him. A slide into second and he was safe. Meanwhile, the runner on third seeing the pitcher take off after the runner going to second headed to the house to score an easy run. While jogging past the catcher (who was yelling at the pitcher to throw him the ball) and watching what was happening at second base, to our dismay was tagged by the catcher for the second out. After the walk, the catcher met the pitcher halfway and with the ball in his glove turned his glove over "as if" to drop the ball in the pitchers glove. The pitcher turned saw the runner going to second, took off after him and thats when "mass confussion" started. They even had the umpires heads spinning. |
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sirlurker
187 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 13:24:02
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I have seen some organizations use the rule that once a player "toes the rubber with baseball" they become the pitcher on record....the high school rule is: The pitching restrictions begin when the pitcher "intentionally contacts the pitcher’s plate."
I have also seen organization rules that say that the pitcher doesn't become the pitcher on record until the first warm up pitch.
The best trick play that I remember performing came about by a running mistake in an earlier game - Bases loaded - 1 or 0 outs - the kid from first base goes to steal - coach yells "back back back" - if catcher throws down - third base runner attempts to score -
We had a player do it by mistake the first time and the catcher made a throwing error to first allowing two runs to score - from then on - we designed a play where bases loaded and less then 2 outs - we would have the 2b and 3b runner take big leads and our 1b runner would attempt a steal from first as the pitcher released - pretending he was mixed up while the coach yelled - "back back back" - it worked several times with either a bad throw down or a slow throw down allowing our player from third to score.....
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christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 13:26:03
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quote:
Originally posted by touchemall
Where in the rules does it say that anyone who touches the ball is considered the pitcher of record? I looked in USSSA and their rule is below. I read it as the pitcher must make an out in order for his time to count towards his innings.
8.05.C.5 For all cumulative totals in this rule, one (1) out equals one-third (1/3) of an inning, two (2) outs equals two-thirds (2/3) of an inning and three (3) outs equals one (1) full inning. A pitcher that pitches in a game and records no outs is not charged with any innings pitched.
I dont believe it does..which is why I would not have called it....my understanding and what was taught to me is that touching the ball or picking up the ball by fielder doesnt automatically mean he has to take the mound as a pitcher. My understanding of the rule is that anyone who takes the mound and toes the rubber with the ball then must become the pitcher of record. Walking by and picking up the ball and tossing it the pitcher is ok in my book.
Which is why sometimes there is a fuzzy area...and my boss has told us to think of the spirit of the rule and intent, much like with balks. We had several incidents (11AA) where the pitcher would come set in the stretch position and take a noticeable deep breath, the 3BC was going ballistic about it being a balk. Me and partner refused to call it. Bossman told us we we correct.
Any other more seasoned umps please feel free to clarify for me because I am a sponge for knowledge..
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Edited by - christheump on 03/04/2011 14:26:48 |
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UGA12
29 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 16:27:18
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| Not that I agree with this as it is trikory and not sportmanship, but last year our coached worked on a couple of "trick" plays in practice and pulled one off when it counted. Up by 1 run, 2 outs, bases loaded. Coach calls time out for a "strategy" meeting at the mound. While he is pointing towards the runners and and pretending to give scenario type instruction about where to go with the ball if it is bunted, hit to 3rd, etc. the pitcher places the ball in the first baseman's mit. They go back in to position and once the pitcher places his foot BEHIND the rubber, the 1st base runner begins to take his lead because the first baseman was not holding him. First baseman walks up, tags the runner, pulls the ball out of his glove, shows the ump, ball game! |
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4bagger
131 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 17:54:03
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Wrong call by the ump. Straddling (putting your feet astride or one in front/one behind the pitching rubber) without the ball is a balk. Should have balked in the run and tied the game.
NFHS Rule 6-2, Section 2, Article 5 states this and even says that if the pitcher "positions himself within approximately 5 feet of the pitchers plate without having the ball" it's a balk.
Page 40 of the rule book.......... |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 19:11:35
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| Technically, the pitcher cannot be on the mound dirt (if there is no grass, it's something like a 6 foot circle) without the ball. In other words, the pitcher doesn't have to toe the rubber without the ball for this to be a balk, he just needs to be in the vincinity of the mound for it to be a balk. If the umpires are letting the above situation happen, they don't know the rules. |
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LeftyBat
160 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 19:49:00
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"Runner at second. Pitcher comes set and pretends to throw towards second base. Both the second and SS dive like they have missed the ball and the outfielders go running like the ball is heading past them to the fence. After the second base runner gets up from diving back into the bag, he starts for third in all the commotion. The pitcher still has the ball and runs over and tags the runner. All the while the 3rd base coach is yelling for him to get back because he can see it developing but the poor runner reacts to all the bodies moving around."
Hard to call this bush league when it was first used by the University of Miami baseball team and most recently used by Auburn in the championship game of the college world series.... |
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davidh6265
27 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 21:08:13
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| UGA12, that was a mistake by the umpire. The ball is not in play until the pitcher toes the rubber, the batter is in the batters box, and the umpire signals or calls for play to resume. |
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PowerAlley
6 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2011 : 21:34:55
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I always heard that if a fielder toes the rubber between innings (evening if stepping on it when running to his position) becomes the pitcher. Simply running over the mound does not make him the pitcher. He must touch the rubber. The basis for this ruling is in following MLB rule:
3.08
(a) If no announcement of a substitution is made, the substitute shall be considered as having entered the game when --
(1) If a pitcher, he takes his place on the pitcher’s plate; |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2011 : 08:35:11
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| I would not consider running over the pitchers mound and touching the pitcher's plate "taking his place on the pitcher's plate". That line implies the intent of a pitcher taking the mound. A player runner going out to his position, who happens to step on the rubber, has no intent of becoming a pitcher. I don't know how anyone could possibly construe this situation as a player being considered to be a pitcher of record. It is rediculous. And if Power Alley's quote of the rule is correct, the first part of 3.08 (a)(1) starts with "if a pitcher". That really states that the intent of the player has to be that he is going out there to pitch. Then, once he takes his place on the pitcher's plate - he will have entered the game as the pitcher. I don't know if there are any umps out there reading this, but maybe you can state your opinion. In my mind, there is no way this rule can be interpreted to say that a position player running to his position or stopping to pick up the ball for the pitcher can be forced to become the pitcher himself. I'm sure it was called by some ump somewhere, but it shouldn't have been. |
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Scorekeeper
35 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2011 : 09:19:46
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bballman,
Unfortunately the pitcher of record call was vigorously made with gusto. Supported by both umps, enforced by the tournament director, and egged on by the other teams coaches and parents. (All who rightly got it shoved down their throats with a 10 run bottom half of the inning, followed by another 7 spot to run rule the game after 3 completed innings.) |
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rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2011 : 09:26:00
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Okay - I have a story that isn't neccesarily bush league play, but a pathetic call in a league championship game a couple of years ago.
11U - Kid hits a grand slam to win the game and quite possibly his first homer ever and the first homer that team had experienced that season. Kids go out to mob the kid at home plate and as he's running toward home, the last kid out of the dugout high fives the kid that hit the homer as he's running home. Umpire calls the runner out which is the 3rd out saying "he was assisted on the base path" and leaves the game tied.
Chaos ensues and the game is delayed 45 minutes while everyone phones God and the TD in charge can't seem to come up with an answer, so we have to continue playing the game. At some point they have a kid that hits a homerun and high fives the third base coach while running by. Our coach throws a hissy fit saying the kid should be out etc. with no run scored. They don't allow the run and now the other team is having a stroke, so we get another huge delay while they discuss it. This time, they disallow the run, but don't make them take an out, but don't give us our out back because it happened 3 innings ago. Game still tied and eventually the other team won by 1 run.
Anyway, it's amazing that coaches and/or umpires can't use common sense and just be good sports in certain situations.
An 8 year old running across the diamond thinks he's being nice cause his mommy told him to by picking up the ball and tossing it to his pitcher. A coach or an umpire who sees it as anything else needs to find something else to do.
And yes, I'm in a bad mood after we lost 3-1 last night and are now faced with a 5 hour rain delay minimum... |
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christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2011 : 11:34:23
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quote:
Originally posted by bballman
I would not consider running over the pitchers mound and touching the pitcher's plate "taking his place on the pitcher's plate". That line implies the intent of a pitcher taking the mound. A player runner going out to his position, who happens to step on the rubber, has no intent of becoming a pitcher. I don't know how anyone could possibly construe this situation as a player being considered to be a pitcher of record. It is rediculous. And if Power Alley's quote of the rule is correct, the first part of 3.08 (a)(1) starts with "if a pitcher". That really states that the intent of the player has to be that he is going out there to pitch. Then, once he takes his place on the pitcher's plate - he will have entered the game as the pitcher. I don't know if there are any umps out there reading this, but maybe you can state your opinion. In my mind, there is no way this rule can be interpreted to say that a position player running to his position or stopping to pick up the ball for the pitcher can be forced to become the pitcher himself. I'm sure it was called by some ump somewhere, but it shouldn't have been.
based on the way it was described....no call from me. |
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bluecup
49 Posts |
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CoachDad
52 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2011 : 13:18:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Scorekeeper
bballman,
Unfortunately the pitcher of record call was vigorously made with gusto. Supported by both umps, enforced by the tournament director, and egged on by the other teams coaches and parents.
Sounds like some good ol' time home cookin' |
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seminole tony
147 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2011 : 14:25:04
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What about Hank Aaron rounding the bases with fans running up and patting him on the back. Could you imagine the big leagues telling him it didn't count. We've told our kids to let the player touch home then congratulate him then. The third base coach giving high fives has always been a given, along with the other teams basemen giving high fives.
Refs should use the rule in the nature of the game as it was intended. |
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Most memorable bush league play...
