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baseballdoc
73 Posts |
 Posted - 04/27/2010 : 16:18:29
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There was some discussion on another forum regarding which tournament was better: Elite-32 or Little League World Series. I must say that it is extremely difficult to make it to the Little League World Series. Of 7,500 teams who start out the International tournament, only 16 make it to Williamsport. A 12u team can find a poorly-attended weak 12u Super NIT and immediately gain a berth to the Elite-32 World Series at Disney.
Once a team reaches the Regionals in Little League, it receives world-wide exposure on TV. There really is no comparison. Yes, there is no leading off but there is plenty of 75-78 mph pitching from a distance of 46 feet!
Who would win in a matchup of the Elite-32 champions and the Little League WEorld Series champions? I think it would be a toss up. However, the Elite-32 champions have an advantage: they can recruit from everywhere. Little league teams are limited by strict boundaries. if I had to choose, there would be no hesitation: Little League World Series!! I am fortunate enough to be there every year as the interpreter for the Latin American Champions. |
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bturner
231 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2010 : 19:05:52
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I think you are right. The LLWS is better just because of the TV exposure. Talent wise I dont think it would be a toss up. The travel teams are just deeper pitching. While LL teams have 1 dominate pitcher, Elite Travel teams go about 4 deep and dominate. You let those kids go from 46 feet and it would be lights out every night.
I may be tougher to get to the LLWS but it aint better baseball. |
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Longhorn Fan
35 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2010 : 22:38:11
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| Hey Baseball Doc, what is it like in Williamsport with all of the people from different countries and the atmosphere surrounding the tournament. I would just love to go as a fan and see it! |
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Longhorn Fan
35 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2010 : 23:22:56
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quote:
Originally posted by baseballdoc
There was some discussion on another forum regarding which tournament was better: Elite-32 or Little League World Series. I must say that it is extremely difficult to make it to the Little League World Series. Of 7,500 teams who start out the International tournament, only 16 make it to Williamsport. A 12u team can find a poorly-attended weak 12u Super NIT and immediately gain a berth to the Elite-32 World Series at Disney.
Once a team reaches the Regionals in Little League, it receives world-wide exposure on TV. There really is no comparison. Yes, there is no leading off but there is plenty of 75-78 mph pitching from a distance of 46 feet!
Who would win in a matchup of the Elite-32 champions and the Little League WEorld Series champions? I think it would be a toss up. However, the Elite-32 champions have an advantage: they can recruit from everywhere. Little league teams are limited by strict boundaries. if I had to choose, there would be no hesitation: Little League World Series!! I am fortunate enough to be there every year as the interpreter for the Latin American Champions.
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baseballdoc
73 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2010 : 07:48:31
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Fof a matchup between the two champions you would only need 1 pitcher! By the way, to get to the LLWS you need at least 3 dominant pitchers. Little League has very strict pitching rules [number of pitches per game and rest in between games].
quote:
Originally posted by bturner
I think you are right. The LLWS is better just because of the TV exposure. Talent wise I dont think it would be a toss up. The travel teams are just deeper pitching. While LL teams have 1 dominate pitcher, Elite Travel teams go about 4 deep and dominate. You let those kids go from 46 feet and it would be lights out every night.
I may be tougher to get to the LLWS but it aint better baseball.
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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2010 : 07:52:02
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| baseballdoc: Is it possible for a kid to do both the Elite 32 and the LLWS. I have heard of some kids from Florida that play travel ball but also participate in the Little League program. It sounds like it could be possible but I was wondering if there were any rules in the Little League that would prohibit playing both travel and Little League. |
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KoopsDad
73 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2010 : 08:41:20
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| My son plays little league (LL) and travel (Team Georgia) so I have a little interest in this. No way the best LL teams compete with the best travel. One game maybe if their ace was throwing, but in a tournament setting, they could not compete. As already stated, they do not have enough pitching nor do they hit well enough top to bottom. I have seen the last couple of Warner Robbins teams and last year the state tourney was held in my home town so I watched them play 5-6 games. They made it to the semi finals of the US bracket side in Williamsport just missing the world series. No way that team makes it even to the semi finals of a competitive Triple Crown tourney here in Georgia. Most good LL teams have only 3-4 major level players. My 11-12 LL all star team for this year for example, should be in the hunt for the state title. My son's 11u travel team though younger and smaller would beat them easily. LL is restricted to the players in the league and that puts them in a situation where they cannot compete with the teams in travel pulling from a large area. As far as the tourney experience itself, there is NOTHING for a youngster that can compare to the LL World Series. There is just something about the LL All Star experience that is different probably because of community support and the world series with tv exposure puts it on a whole other level. |
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coachtony
236 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2010 : 09:34:41
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It is my understanding that most of the teams that you see that are playing in the LLWS are "All Star" teams and the LL rules get fuzzy about that. I have heard of travel teams taking their team at 11U or 12U and dumping them into the draft at a LL park and letting them get drafted to whatever team they get drafted to....and as the players are playing their LL league schedule with their respective teams the original travel team is still playing weekend tournaments together all spring. Then on Memorial Day they bring the team back together under LL as an "All Star" team and they take that team to compete for the LLWS.
Again, I have never done this myself it is just what I was told from 2 separate sources that should be "in the know".
--T
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KoopsDad
73 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2010 : 10:19:26
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This is a very common practice across the country. There is nothing in the LL rules that prevent a player from playing in any other league. The only thing that does come into play is that to be all star eligible, you have to make at least 60% of the leagues games. Also, the elected all star team is not supposed to play or even scrimmage as a team against anyone outside of a little league tournament. If they truly put the players into the pool and draft by the rules, if the league has two charters (forcing two separate LL all star teams from that league based on the # of kids in the program), those kids will be divided between the two teams thus splitting that talent between the two all star teams. If the league has only one charter (one team), there is no problem. Warner Robbins, one of the country's largest programs has always had only one charter. This year they were forced to two and the people there are hot about it as they will not have the one super team that they have had in the past as the talent will be divided. Local LL boards have done a lot of things in the past to strengthen their program's all star team but in doing so, are bending if not breaking rules. I have heard of programs naming their all star team at the beginning of the season before even one league game is played. In doing so, other kids no matter how good they played had no chance of all stars. The all star teams are supposed to be voted upon by players, managers, etc based on their league performance. The Columbus team that won the LL World Series a few years ago was the Columbus Young Guns travel team as I understand it and had been playing together all spring prior to the LL tournaments. This was told on ESPN. It is all a matter of what the LL board is willing to do and whether they are more concerned about fairness to the kids or a good all star team. Not sure how but Japan had their "next year's team" in the stands "for the experience" a couple of years ago at the LL World Series. Have not figured that one out yet but that is what was shown on television.
quote:
Originally posted by coachtony
It is my understanding that most of the teams that you see that are playing in the LLWS are "All Star" teams and the LL rules get fuzzy about that. I have heard of travel teams taking their team at 11U or 12U and dumping them into the draft at a LL park and letting them get drafted to whatever team they get drafted to....and as the players are playing their LL league schedule with their respective teams the original travel team is still playing weekend tournaments together all spring. Then on Memorial Day they bring the team back together under LL as an "All Star" team and they take that team to compete for the LLWS.
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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2010 : 10:28:13
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| I have been told that Little League is much more restrictive with their rules but as we all know some of the Coaches out there will either not pay attention to the rules as written and will attempt to find every way in the world to bypass the rules. |
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baseballdoc
73 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2010 : 11:44:23
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A player would need at least two things: 1st: he must be registered with a Little League association [park]and have played the required number of regular season games. He then would have to be named to the All-Star team for that particular Little League Association. His team would then have had to win a number of tournaments [district, sectionals, state, and regional]to be able to make it to the LLWS in Williamsport.
2nd.: for a player to be able to make it to the Elite-32, he must be on a travel team and win a Super-NIT. A player could be picked up from another team and used as one of three add-ons to participate at the Elite-32 WS at Disney.
Now, Little League frowns upon kids participating in travel ball tournaments and Little League tournaments concomitantly and that is stipulated in the rules. It would be difficult but not impossible to do both. The Little League All-Star coaches would have to permit that player to miss practices and games. I personally am not aware of any cases where a player has been ruled inelligible because he or she was playing travel baseball at the same time as the LL tournaments.
quote:
Originally posted by baseballpapa
baseballdoc: Is it possible for a kid to do both the Elite 32 and the LLWS. I have heard of some kids from Florida that play travel ball but also participate in the Little League program. It sounds like it could be possible but I was wondering if there were any rules in the Little League that would prohibit playing both travel and Little League.
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baseballdoc
73 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2010 : 11:47:27
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It is baseball heaven. Anyone is welcome to attend and all the games are free! The hotels are very economical and the food is very cheap. I have been there with the Latin American Champions for the past 11 years. I consider the best two weeks of the year for me.
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Originally posted by Longhorn Fan
Hey Baseball Doc, what is it like in Williamsport with all of the people from different countries and the atmosphere surrounding the tournament. I would just love to go as a fan and see it!
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baseballdoc
73 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2010 : 11:54:56
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I would disagree. Last year's championship team from Chula Vista, for example, would have fared very well against most of the 12u USSSA or AAU teams. While at Williamsport, they had to play 3 pool play games and then semi-final and final USA championship games before making it to the International championship. Therefore, teams need pitching depth.
I would agree, however, that most competitive travel ball teams can beat the majority of Little League All-Star teams.
Most recently, many of the US teams are indeed travel teams who play both LL and travel baseball [by the rules]
quote:
Originally posted by KoopsDad
My son plays little league (LL) and travel (Team Georgia) so I have a little interest in this. No way the best LL teams compete with the best travel. One game maybe if their ace was throwing, but in a tournament setting, they could not compete. As already stated, they do not have enough pitching nor do they hit well enough top to bottom. I have seen the last couple of Warner Robbins teams and last year the state tourney was held in my home town so I watched them play 5-6 games. They made it to the semi finals of the US bracket side in Williamsport just missing the world series. No way that team makes it even to the semi finals of a competitive Triple Crown tourney here in Georgia. Most good LL teams have only 3-4 major level players. My 11-12 LL all star team for this year for example, should be in the hunt for the state title. My son's 11u travel team though younger and smaller would beat them easily. LL is restricted to the players in the league and that puts them in a situation where they cannot compete with the teams in travel pulling from a large area. As far as the tourney experience itself, there is NOTHING for a youngster that can compare to the LL World Series. There is just something about the LL All Star experience that is different probably because of community support and the world series with tv exposure puts it on a whole other level.
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baseballdoc
73 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2010 : 12:00:43
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Not even the Minister of Japan knows which little league in Japan will win their regional tournament this year and repesent the country at the Little League World Series! They have one of the tougher regional tournaments. What you heard is not correct and in fact is basically impossible.
quote:
Originally posted by KoopsDad
This is a very common practice across the country. There is nothing in the LL rules that prevent a player from playing in any other league. The only thing that does come into play is that to be all star eligible, you have to make at least 60% of the leagues games. Also, the elected all star team is not supposed to play or even scrimmage as a team against anyone outside of a little league tournament. If they truly put the players into the pool and draft by the rules, if the league has two charters (forcing two separate LL all star teams from that league based on the # of kids in the program), those kids will be divided between the two teams thus splitting that talent between the two all star teams. If the league has only one charter (one team), there is no problem. Warner Robbins, one of the country's largest programs has always had only one charter. This year they were forced to two and the people there are hot about it as they will not have the one super team that they have had in the past as the talent will be divided. Local LL boards have done a lot of things in the past to strengthen their program's all star team but in doing so, are bending if not breaking rules. I have heard of programs naming their all star team at the beginning of the season before even one league game is played. In doing so, other kids no matter how good they played had no chance of all stars. The all star teams are supposed to be voted upon by players, managers, etc based on their league performance. The Columbus team that won the LL World Series a few years ago was the Columbus Young Guns travel team as I understand it and had been playing together all spring prior to the LL tournaments. This was told on ESPN. It is all a matter of what the LL board is willing to do and whether they are more concerned about fairness to the kids or a good all star team. Not sure how but Japan had their "next year's team" in the stands "for the experience" a couple of years ago at the LL World Series. Have not figured that one out yet but that is what was shown on television.
quote:
Originally posted by coachtony
It is my understanding that most of the teams that you see that are playing in the LLWS are "All Star" teams and the LL rules get fuzzy about that. I have heard of travel teams taking their team at 11U or 12U and dumping them into the draft at a LL park and letting them get drafted to whatever team they get drafted to....and as the players are playing their LL league schedule with their respective teams the original travel team is still playing weekend tournaments together all spring. Then on Memorial Day they bring the team back together under LL as an "All Star" team and they take that team to compete for the LLWS.
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KoopsDad
73 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2010 : 13:38:44
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I would agree that there are occasional exceptions when a "special" little league team comes through and the way that Chula Vista hit the ball, they might have been that exception. But, the one thing to remember is that they were still pitching to other little league teams. Thus, their depth never got tested game after game by a truly top caliber team as it might in a very difficult travel tourney where there were quality hitters top to bottom. Good little league teams usually have depth in numbers (of kids that could pitch) but not necessarily depth in quality. The way Chula Vista hit the ball, their pitching did not have to be that great. I guess it is safe to say that they might far well against most USSSA or AAU teams, but I do not think so against the elite. When you consider little league's elite vs. travel ball's elite, I do not think little league has much of a chance most years because of their restrictions. Now if they were to play only one game, that might be a different story. The lefty from Texas a few years ago throwing 79-80 from 46 ft would have have been hard for ANYONE to beat no matter who they are. No matter the tournament or the league, when all the teams are relatively similar in ability, it still makes for great baseball at this age.
quote:
Originally posted by baseballdoc
I would disagree. Last year's championship team from Chula Vista, for example, would have fared very well against most of the 12u USSSA or AAU teams. While at Williamsport, they had to play 3 pool play games and then semi-final and final USA championship games before making it to the International championship. Therefore, teams need pitching depth.
I would agree, however, that most competitive travel ball teams can beat the majority of Little League All-Star teams.
Most recently, many of the US teams are indeed travel teams who play both LL and travel baseball [by the rules]
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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2010 : 22:16:50
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| Does anyone agree with me that trying to compare travel baseball with Little League baseball is like comparing an apple to an orange. They are two different and distinct animals each with their own set of rules with I think everyone agreeing that the Little League rules are more restrictive but that they still get stretched. Have I summed this up. |
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6bomber
68 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2010 : 23:08:49
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no doubt they are completely different. lead off no lead off. mound length. fence diameters. our team started as 7u and williamsport was
the goal then. to get there is like the holy grail of youth baseball.
it may not have the country's stud ballplayers, but it takes a team
to get there. |
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LonghornPapa6
13 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2010 : 14:18:49
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| BASEBALLPAPA...You have summed it up perfectly, and 6BOMBER...you are right on with your point that it takes a team to get there, and a great team to win it. Let's all dream for a minute...and combine the best 16 players from The Longhorns and The Bombers...8 pitchers and 8 position players...what do you think? Keeping in mind that teams have to come from the same community, or I would include The Bandits. But as I said...JUST DREAMING!!! Then that Little League World Series might just be the ticket!!! Might as well dream big.... |
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6bomber
68 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2010 : 20:02:12
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if you could get some people to swallow their pride, (on both sides) that dream team would have a strong chance in state
and could definetly make a run at williamsport. the good thing is they all live in lynn haven area. need BF back down south. with longhorns already with a dizzy dean world series and elite 32 ticket this year. that only leaves LLWS. |
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baseballdoc
73 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2010 : 23:26:59
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Living in the Lynn Haven area is not quite the criteria utilized by Little League Baseball for kids to be eligible. All players have to reside within a defined geographical area, register in a chartered league, and play LL regular season.
quote:
Originally posted by 6bomber
if you could get some people to swallow their pride, (on both sides) that dream team would have a strong chance in state
and could definetly make a run at williamsport. the good thing is they all live in lynn haven area. need BF back down south. with longhorns already with a dizzy dean world series and elite 32 ticket this year. that only leaves LLWS.
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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2010 : 08:42:56
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Longhorn Papa: The Bandits are as local as local gets up this way. If we played LL for example and couldn't use our 2 Atlanta kids due to the rules there are at least 3 other great players in our area to fill this type team with and we even considered it but felt that what we were playing was much better for the development of our kids. You can only play 9 so having 16 would only be a problem for any team and at 11 years old they all want to play even the pitchers. Other than the national TV exposure that LL gets can someone let us know how many teams participate in LL as I find it hard to believe that they have more kids participating in LL than travel baseball.
I really think that both ways of playing baseball is great and that they both offer good things and bad things and that we must choose the one that best suits the development of our kids. I would say this for LL in our area. It is almost non-existent which makes our choice much easier. I can't think of anything that could begin to provide Papa more thrills than being able to watch my grandson's go up against what I feel is the very best kids there age group offers and I know that win or lose that the experience will not only make them better baseball players but better for the ride. |
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baseballdoc
73 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2010 : 13:41:03
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Little League Baseball Inc. is the largest youth sports association with at least 2.5 million members world wide. Travel baseball is probably smaller than Babe Ruth/Cal Ripken Baseball. Travel baseball is very popular in Florida, Georgia, Texas, and California. It is not played as much in other parts of the USA and hardly anywhere outside of this country. The Regional champions from the different USA regions have the opportunity to play against Regional champions from Taiwan, Mexico, Latin America, Caribbean, and Japan. Of the 7,500 teams at the start of the tournament, only 16 [8 from the US] make it to Williamsport. I can tell you one thing, it is not easy to get there, and even more, win once there.
The main difference with Little League is that the members of the All-Star teams have to be from the same association [ball park] with well-defined boundaries. Even small towns [perhaps like Ringgold] have more than one association. If the population of Ringgold is less than 20,000, then likely they could get away with having just 1 charter.To get to the Little League World Series a team must have 2 things: they have to be good and lucky. Many close elimination games are won by a bad hop , a walk, or an error. The best team often never makes it.
quote:
Originally posted by baseballpapa
Longhorn Papa: The Bandits are as local as local gets up this way. If we played LL for example and couldn't use our 2 Atlanta kids due to the rules there are at least 3 other great players in our area to fill this type team with and we even considered it but felt that what we were playing was much better for the development of our kids. You can only play 9 so having 16 would only be a problem for any team and at 11 years old they all want to play even the pitchers. Other than the national TV exposure that LL gets can someone let us know how many teams participate in LL as I find it hard to believe that they have more kids participating in LL than travel baseball.
I really think that both ways of playing baseball is great and that they both offer good things and bad things and that we must choose the one that best suits the development of our kids. I would say this for LL in our area. It is almost non-existent which makes our choice much easier. I can't think of anything that could begin to provide Papa more thrills than being able to watch my grandson's go up against what I feel is the very best kids there age group offers and I know that win or lose that the experience will not only make them better baseball players but better for the ride.
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BROOKSTEAM
145 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2010 : 15:50:19
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| I remember the team from Columbus won a few years back. I heard that all or almost all the boys tried out for 13U ECB teams and only 1-2 of them were able to make it. Comparing the teams is difficult because you have to decide which rules you play by. If you take a group of top 5 LL teams, and put them against top 5 travel teams, and played open base, 50'/70' with fences that are 235' instead of 200' then the LL teams get killed. If you do the opposite advantage to the LL team but I think it would be easier for the travel team to adjust. |
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docknorman
8 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2010 : 13:43:41
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The major difference between the two are...for the most part, your Elite 32 teams are primarily hand-picked teams where the LLWS teams are "supposed" to be draft/filtered teams, meaning they are drafted, and the teams are then "filtered" for All-Stars.
With the pitching differences, some folks would say that innings pitched are harder to manage than pitch counts, but others would disagree. For instance, many times I have seen a dominate pitcher come out of 3 innings pitched with less than 30 pitches thrown....totally depends on the situation.
All my opinion, which in some cases is considered worthless :)
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