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ONE WAY
48 Posts |
 Posted - 11/12/2011 : 19:49:20
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| Why do you think teams do not want to have a blind draw. |
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21BS21
28 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2011 : 22:04:54
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In big tournaments where brackets are split to Gold, Silver and Bronze, you will have a pool with 3 major teams and then another with 3 AA teams with a blind draw.
1 of those AA teams will end up in the Gold bracket and have a short Sunday. The major team that ends up in the Bronze bracket will not have a challenge and walk through their games on Sunday. Neither of these teams would benefit from playing the tournament.
Setting the brackets makes for a better tournament.
Now, if a tournament is set for a certain class only (Major, AAA, etc.) the only fair way to set the brackets is a blind draw. |
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baseballfan101
2 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2011 : 00:28:01
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| 21BS21, I absolutely agree with you 110%! |
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ONE WAY
48 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2011 : 10:49:20
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| I do not agree. I think that if a team signs up for a tournament if it is a Major or Open they know what to expect as far as play. Their shoild only be 1 bracket with a blind draw is this about winning or the kid seeing the best and trying to improve. I guess that now if you are a AAA or AA you tell your team let's just win the silver bracket.I feel their should never be a Silver or Bronze or Copper Bracket just 1 big bracket. Say the top 4 Major team draw each other in pool play now they have to use pitching not only in pool play but in early bracket play now they can't save any of it, now a AAA or AA team has a better chance to advance because now the Major team has had to use their top pitcher's. If u sign up for a Major Tournament then play Major baseball or don't sign up go play re-ball |
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wareagle
324 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2011 : 11:42:34
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Agree with OneWay
Teams Know what they are signing up for. If they had wanted to play AA or other, they can sign up for that. If the intent is to separate the classes then do so and let the teams decide where they want to sign up. Some may want to play in the silver bracket, while others may choose to play with the majors.
Anytime someone sets up the brackets there will be bias, whether perceived or real, intentional or not. |
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gatraveler
58 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2011 : 11:48:12
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quote:
Originally posted by ONE WAY
I do not agree. I think that if a team signs up for a tournament if it is a Major or Open they know what to expect as far as play. Their shoild only be 1 bracket with a blind draw is this about winning or the kid seeing the best and trying to improve. I guess that now if you are a AAA or AA you tell your team let's just win the silver bracket.I feel their should never be a Silver or Bronze or Copper Bracket just 1 big bracket. Say the top 4 Major team draw each other in pool play now they have to use pitching not only in pool play but in early bracket play now they can't save any of it, now a AAA or AA team has a better chance to advance because now the Major team has had to use their top pitcher's. If u sign up for a Major Tournament then play Major baseball or don't sign up go play re-ball
Your argument is totally opposed by every sport, and at every level. The NCAA doesn't make Kentucky play UConn in the first round. The NFL seeds their playoffs in hopes of getting the best teams into the next round. MLB does the same thing. Why would a tournament Director want a top team knocked out in pool play just so some AA team makes it to Sunday?
If you can't win your pool, you shouldn't advance. And if you only have two pitchers... |
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ONE WAY
48 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2011 : 12:26:51
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| gatraveler do u see any of the programs u just listed have gold and silver and bronze and copper brackets no it is just one big bracket and u cannot say that one team is better than another how can you say that. If the Braves Rays Astros Longhorns and Stealth play each other how can u say who is the number 1 seed that why u play to see who is number 1. no team should be placed in a Major AAA AA or anything else like I said before go play red baseball this is TRAVEL BASEBALL. I think some people are fogetting that.Also they play a full season to see who the top team is we don't so u just don't say that team is better than the other play it on the field to see. If a so called Major team can't win their pool the they try to win from the number 26 seed. IF YOU CAN'T HANG WITH THE BIG DOGS GET OFF THE FIELD |
Edited by - ONE WAY on 11/14/2011 14:13:54 |
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eastcobbkreskin
143 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2011 : 13:15:13
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gatraveler: most tournaments have flaws and bias in their seeding process, these are some flaws in your assumptions
1. you are assuming that the bias used by the TD is accurate and does not JUST use labels(AAA, Major, or AA) as it is basis for seeding a tournament
2. you assume travel baseball tournaments are similar in comparison to MLB, NCAA, NFL, surely you were not serious in your comparison with travel baseball? Most travel baseball tournaments are set up completely different than these organization's playoff and tourney systems. The NCAA basketball tournament does not have pool play (unless you want to count all of the conference tourneys and regular season games used to win conference titles) and then there is still a wealth of statistics, politics and gateways to entry that are managed by networks, money, many conferences and more than one poll to draw the seeding from. MLB playoffs (best of 5 or 7) do not compare as these are series of one team VS another in order to advance through a tournament. Additionally, the pool plays or whole season of 160 games helps to define the brackets. The NFL does not always get the best teams out of the league in the bracket; ie any team from the AFC west this year probably does not belong in the playoffs. But one will make it and could possibly upset a top team under certain circumstances. You never know.
3. you assume that you already know who the best teams are in your statement "Why would a tournament Director want a top team knocked out in pool play just so some AA team makes it to Sunday". (you should not be so condescending towards the AA team, they might just beat you in a bracket game or the ship) So I would guess there is no need to play tournament.;>)
quote:
Originally posted by gatraveler
Your argument is totally opposed by every sport, and at every level. The NCAA doesn't make Kentucky play UConn in the first round. The NFL seeds their playoffs in hopes of getting the best teams into the next round. MLB does the same thing. ? Why would a tournament Director want a top team knocked out in pool play just so some AA team makes it to Sunday?
If you can't win your pool, you shouldn't advance. And if you only have two pitchers...
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sportsman
37 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2011 : 14:16:58
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| I agree with One Way. I would like to see all blind draws similar to USSSA where it's done by points. |
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gatraveler
58 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2011 : 14:39:43
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Kreskin (and ONE WAY)-
Let's look at your points.
"1. you are assuming that the bias used by the TD is accurate and does not JUST use labels(AAA, Major, or AA) as it is basis for seeding a tournament"
What should he use? ONE WAY is screaming labels in every post. Does the preseason #1 team in college football not have an advantage in making the national championship? TD's use whatever info they have.
"2. you assume travel baseball tournaments are similar in comparison to MLB, NCAA, NFL, surely you were not serious in your comparison with travel baseball? Most travel baseball tournaments are set up completely different than these organization's playoff and tourney systems. The NCAA basketball tournament does not have pool play (unless you want to count all of the conference tourneys and regular season games used to win conference titles) and then there is still a wealth of statistics, politics and gateways to entry that are managed by networks, money, many conferences and more than one poll to draw the seeding from. MLB playoffs (best of 5 or 7) do not compare as these are series of one team VS another in order to advance through a tournament. Additionally, the pool plays or whole season of 160 games helps to define the brackets. The NFL does not always get the best teams out of the league in the bracket; ie any team from the AFC west this year probably does not belong in the playoffs. But one will make it and could possibly upset a top team under certain circumstances. You never know."
So you argue that no one from the AFC West should make the playoffs, but a AA team should make the gold bracket?? Not sure I follow that, but you're right about the NCAA. They take a wealth of information, select the top 64, and then THEY SEED THEM TO THE BEST OF THEIR ABILITY. They don't do a blind draw.
"3. you assume that you already know who the best teams are in your statement "Why would a tournament Director want a top team knocked out in pool play just so some AA team makes it to Sunday". (you should not be so condescending towards the AA team, they might just beat you in a bracket game or the ship) So I would guess there is no need to play tournament.;>)"
Not condescending at all. Brackets are designed to get top teams in the final. That's my whole point. Don't understand why a TD wouldn't want that.
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ONE WAY
48 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2011 : 15:35:03
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| If you want only the top teams in the ship they why just only have 4 teams in each tournament and let them play.Open your eyes everone look at the pool draw from last years BATTLE OF THE SOUTH,and you will see what I am talking about how it was set up for 1 team to make it to the ship. You can not tell me that the draw was fair.Put all the names in a hat and draw who u pick is who you play. |
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eastcobbkreskin
143 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2011 : 15:39:09
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gatravler, here are my responses in red to your points.
1. TD's use whatever info they have. which isn't much so precisely the point to have the blind draws
2. So you argue that no one from the AFC West should make the playoffs, but a AA team should make the gold bracket?? no, just that as a note as you were comparing travel to NFL, NCAA, MLB, and to question whether you believed that the NFL's method for divisional POOL play determining the teams that get into the playoffs made much sense On NCAA, They don't do a blind draw. because they have such a wealth of information and money(bias) to determine the 64 team single elimination tournament that is nothing like a travel baseball tournament.
3. Not condescending at all. Brackets are designed to get top teams in the final. That's my whole point. Don't understand why a TD wouldn't want that. true, designed, controlled, manipulated however you want to phrase it, but is only relevant if the TD has good accurate data that can be verified and definitely not just because a team has a label, or because the team plays more in that sanctions events, etc.
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2011 : 16:38:20
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NCAA & NIT . . . Winner of NIT can chant "We're 69th!"
quote:
Originally posted by ONE WAY
gatraveler do u see any of the programs u just listed have gold and silver and bronze and copper brackets no it is just one big bracket and u cannot say that one team is better than another how can you say that. If the Braves Rays Astros Longhorns and Stealth play each other how can u say who is the number 1 seed that why u play to see who is number 1. no team should be placed in a Major AAA AA or anything else like I said before go play red baseball this is TRAVEL BASEBALL. I think some people are fogetting that.Also they play a full season to see who the top team is we don't so u just don't say that team is better than the other play it on the field to see. If a so called Major team can't win their pool the they try to win from the number 26 seed. IF YOU CAN'T HANG WITH THE BIG DOGS GET OFF THE FIELD
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gatraveler
58 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2011 : 01:14:07
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You keep making my point. The NCAA seeds teams for their tournament, with the intention of getting the top teams thru the early rounds. Your argument actually is that TD's don't have enough data to properly do this. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. Or maybe everybody already knows the pecking order. Below is YOUR post from early last month in the "12U ECB Teams" discussion. If you can rank everybody at ECB, maybe a TD who runs 20 tourneys a year can do it too. Just sayin.
Major-Elite
Braves --come on, they don't have to try too hard to stay together, they will be the team to beat
Rays --clear number 2 of ECB, will give Braves a good run on occasion
Major-
Longhorns -- new paid coach? lost 3 strong players, have struggled a bit this fall, depends on how new gel with old, not hearing much "horn tooting on the board this year" (get it, horn tooting:>)) chemistry is key
Spartans -- looks like a big improvement, a few good pick ups from Raptors & Titans added to a strong core, watch out
Stars -- will be a fast team, picked up 3-4 Yankees and Yankee coach, a 1-2 Longhorns, not sure how much of the core has left to go elsewhere, need a few big bats, won't know until hunting season is over
Astros - biggest unknown, starting from scratch, takes time to gel, still have not seen posted roster, 1 last years 12u ECB Astro, a Raptor or two, a Star or two, maybe an out of towner or two???
Select -- lost some key players, one to braves, another moved away, not sure yet what the pick ups are? team chemistry is the key
AAA-
Pride -- not sure how much of Yankee core they got
Titans -- new team-one kid from last years12u ECB Astros & 1 from last years 12u GA Jackets white, 3 Spartans & Spartan coach??
Phillies -- Nationals core with some good pick ups and getting plenty of game time this fall
Just do not have any info on these four so not sure where they would fall
Diamondback -- ??
Warriors -- ??
Black Knights -- ??
BlueJays --?????
[/navy] |
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eastcobbkreskin
143 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2011 : 09:45:26
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gatraveler, i give you credit, your digging deep to make the point, however ECB is a small microcosm of the GA traveler ball landscape, and the post your referring to is privy to some very local information that these TDs have no interest in discussing or knowing. My post was a preseason ranking on a discussion board for one park as there has been quite a bit of movement amongst the players from team to team. It would be nice to know a TD that has the system in place to manage such information across the travel ball spectrum from state to state of different ages & the different sanctioned baseball asscoiations. At present it is not a reality.
Yes, the NCAA seeds the tournament seeking to get the top ranked teams into the finals, However, the NCAA seeds the teams after a season full of pool play that consist of pre-conference play, conference play, conference tournament play and then use some pretty complex algorithms & a bit of back room politics(money) before they will seed the brackets.
We are talking about blind draws into the pools rather than manipulating pools to make sure certain teams do not have to play one another thus giving preferential treatment to teams with the label "major" so that some can have "their so called" top ranked 4 teams in the semi finals.
To make it more simple:
Travel baseball:
Pool play:TDs "determines(breakdown or flaw in the system)" the pools to help to get the "top ranked teams" into the semis and finals
Results from pool play determine the seeds into a preset bracket.
Bracket play: single elimination
NCAA Basketball:
Pool play: season play, tournament play
uses algorithms, W-L, rankings & tournament champions to determine seeding
Bracket play: 65 team tournament March Madness single elimination
Until you have an trusted accurate reporting system in place, the simple solution is a blind pool draw with one big bracket each tournament.
[quote]Originally posted by gatraveler
You keep making my point. The NCAA seeds teams for their tournament, with the intention of getting the top teams thru the early rounds. Your argument actually is that TD's don't have enough data to properly do this. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. Or maybe everybody already knows the pecking order. Below is YOUR post from early last month in the "12U ECB Teams" discussion. If you can rank everybody at ECB, maybe a TD who runs 20 tourneys a year can do it too. Just sayin.
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ecbinsider
318 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2011 : 11:06:22
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traveler,
good list and you seem to be well informed but how can you leave off the bomberz and put the rays at #2?? Sandy Plains might need to be on that list since they beat the rays, astros will be much better then people give them credit for and mark it down as they will be as good as any local team in Atlanta. Also, shiloh had a great fall and is'nt on there as well?? Stars will be fast but man did they lose a lot of good players and most of their top pitching, jury is out but we heard the hype last season and we know how that turned out.
Hearing so much about the Spartans, they will be better but are not ready to compete on the major level and the big reason will be Sunday pitching. Look at the roster and ask who will be their guys to go up against the other top teams and win a game? At 12U, it's going to be about pitching more then it was at 11U and that is why many AAA teams with a few good pitchers will beat the major teams. You saw it in the fall, teams like the rebels, rays and longhorns weren't as dominate as they were last fall. |
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loganmill
144 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2011 : 11:53:13
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Ecbinsider just how would you rank the ecb teams
this coming up spring season. With all the roster changes
you know about how does it stack up to you.
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gatraveler
58 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2011 : 12:04:36
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Insider- That's Kreskin's list, not mine.
Kreskin- I agree on lack of info as well. Actually was just enjoying the debate. I really don't like USSSA method, but I think Tony with TC tries pretty hard to get it right. I actually like the 4-team pools where 2 advance and two don't. Makes everybody play hard in pool play. I do know this; I love baseball, and I'm glad my kid plays the game. Even the bad tournaments are better than no baseball at all. |
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eastcobbkreskin
143 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2011 : 12:17:41
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I agree and will second that Tony does do a good job
quote:
Originally posted by gatraveler
Kreskin- I agree on lack of info as well. Actually was just enjoying the debate. I really don't like USSSA method, but I think Tony with TC tries pretty hard to get it right. I actually like the 4-team pools where 2 advance and two don't. Makes everybody play hard in pool play. I do know this; I love baseball, and I'm glad my kid plays the game. Even the bad tournaments are better than no baseball at all.
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Edited by - eastcobbkreskin on 11/15/2011 12:35:31 |
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ONE WAY
48 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2011 : 12:30:17
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East Cobb Ranking
1)braves/astro
3)longhorns
4)rays
5)phillies
6)stars
If Astro have pitching they will be number (1)because they will out hit any team out their, the brave lost their top pitcher and the best ss at east cobb. |
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ecbinsider
318 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2011 : 15:07:32
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quote:
Originally posted by loganmill
Ecbinsider just how would you rank the ecb teams
this coming up spring season. With all the roster changes
you know about how does it stack up to you.
coach,
It's way too early to see how things will shake out but the fall was a sample of what might be coming this spring. After all, half of the east cobb teams have yet to play a game so you don't know what these teams will look like, will the astros be as good as one way says? can the rays and longhorns continue and build on last year? Can the stars, select, spartans and others be as good as some on this board think they will be? When it's all said and done, the Astros will be a top 3-4 team, too many good players and top coaches not to be.
Who knows, it'll take a month into the season before we know what this looks like but imho there will be about some very good teams that will challenge every weekend and the days of 1-2 teams winning every weekend are gone, upsets will happen every weekend and on a more consistent basis. |
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ecbinsider
318 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2011 : 15:10:36
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quote:
Originally posted by gatraveler
Insider- That's Kreskin's list, not mine.
gatraveler, my bad on that, couldn't read through all the speculation made by kreskin |
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eastcobbkreskin
143 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2011 : 16:32:42
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Insider, the list was only ECB thus the omission of many of the teams you mentioned, not sure what you mean by all the speculation.
quote:
Originally posted by ecbinsider
gatraveler, my bad on that, couldn't read through all the speculation made by kreskin
quote:
Originally posted by ecbinsider
traveler,
good list and you seem to be well informed but how can you leave off the bomberz and put the rays at #2?? Sandy Plains might need to be on that list since they beat the rays, astros will be much better then people give them credit for and mark it down as they will be as good as any local team in Atlanta. Also, shiloh had a great fall and is'nt on there as well?? Stars will be fast but man did they lose a lot of good players and most of their top pitching, jury is out but we heard the hype last season and we know how that turned out.
Hearing so much about the Spartans, they will be better but are not ready to compete on the major level and the big reason will be Sunday pitching. Look at the roster and ask who will be their guys to go up against the other top teams and win a game? At 12U, it's going to be about pitching more then it was at 11U and that is why many AAA teams with a few good pitchers will beat the major teams. You saw it in the fall, teams like the rebels, rays and longhorns weren't as dominate as they were last fall.
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ecbinsider
318 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2011 : 19:48:50
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@ kreskin,
speculation is your ranking of ecb teams, those in the know will tell you something completely different then what you posted. I also disagree with you re chemistry, that is overrated. Some teams that struggled in the fall never practiced together, team practices are the most important thing when trying to get a team to click on all cylinders. Scrimmage games and tournaments are not the venue to get it, that is why the astros haven't played 1 team this fall, they practice and practice and go over situations week after week. Wait until some teams get on the field to say this or that, after all one team you are so high on has had a lackluster fall but only you seem to be bullish on them.
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Edited by - ecbinsider on 11/15/2011 20:08:25 |
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prestont
197 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2011 : 21:15:52
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All this discussion surely is entertaining ;-) There is LOTS of time, offseason work, and preparation thats gotta happen before we we can really start to rank teams. There was ALOT of movement this year, and lets see how teams perform in spring over the first few tourneys. I think its gonna be wide open after the elite teams this year with quality teams from all over the city.
My son was off this fall, and we're really looking forward to spring. For me, the fun part is just hanging with my son and putting in the time and reps to get ready. If ya read the older age groups - we only have a few more years for it still to be 'kool' to hang with Dad and work on their game. Enjoy it while we can!
Also - Nobody really has mentioned Stealth.. They went down to St. Augustine for Fall Nationals and beat up on a bunch of quality teams from FLA before losing to Team FLA in the ship. |
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eastcobbkreskin
143 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2011 : 07:45:40
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insider, I am curious why you did not follow your own advice? Wait until some teams get on the field See your list below from earlier thread in the fall(the same thread that my "speculation" list came from). I do not think all of your bullish & bear teams have made it on the field yet. ie; Astros, Stars, etc
Just curious, at first in this thread you thought the list was good and well informed when you thought gatraveler wrote it, but after you realized Kreskin wrote it, you called it speculation. Do you believe your list from earlier in the fall shown below is speculation? ;>)
{quote]quote:
Originally posted by ecbinsider
traveler
good list and you seem to be well informed
[quote]Originally posted by ecbinsider
kreskin,
speculation is your ranking of ecb teams, those in the know will tell you something completely different then what you posted. I also disagree with you re chemistry, that is overrated. Some teams that struggled in the fall never practiced together, team practices are the most important thing when trying to get a team to click on all cylinders. Scrimmage games and tournaments are not the venue to get it, that is why the astros haven't played 1 team this fall, they practice and practice and go over situations week after week. Wait until some teams get on the field to say this or that, after all one team you are so high on has had a lackluster fall but only you seem to be bullish on them.
[quote]Originally posted by ecbinsider
ECKreskin,
based on off season pick ups and losses, here is where things have shaken out;
major teams:
braves
rays
astros
longhorn
high aaa teams;
stars
teams select
titans
spartans
warriors
mid level aaa;
dback
black knight
pride
phillies
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