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Dozer
7 Posts |
 Posted - 06/20/2011 : 09:14:19
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| No dog in the fight for me on this one either but rules are rules for a reason. Don't think there needs to be any secretary involved... it is called an official score keeper for each team along with the team managers knowing exactly how many innings their kids and opponents have pitched before the start of the next game. If you are going to let a kid pitch more than the alotted innings set forth by the tournament, not only are you putting the kid at risk of injury, you are setting a poor example for the kids in teaching them to follow rules. Coaching any sport in my opinion is teaching kids more about life while teaching them the game they are playing and love. Now I am not saying any of this was done on purpose because I know that both teams are first class operations with first class coaches, parents, and kids. Sounds like it was a great tournament. Hope everyone had fun and had a great Father's Day! |
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ecball
72 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2011 : 09:16:16
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I will respond once so everyone gets the exact details of the protest and what was asked for. We found out the kid had pitched 7 innings in one day and protested this and had the tournament director confirm as we saw their game with the Grays. After it was determined that the rule was broken, I asked the umps with the head coach of the Longhorns present to just replay the inning. Obviously, the Longhorns were all for it but the umps said no, we can't do that. I don't want forfeit wins and neither do our fans or kids. The ump said we can't replay the inning, it's a forfeit. Then both teams asked to finish the game, but the umps said no again, once it's done, they are going home. These are the facts and the director was involved in the conversation as well so he knows what really happened. IMO, the fairest thing to do would have been to replay the inning with a legal pitcher but logic always goes out the window in youth sports. This would have allowed us to win it on the field and given the Longhorns a pass on their mistake.
We also know that the Longhorns or any other team isn't going to give the Braves a free pass if we pitch kids 7 innings in a day so that isn't even up for debate. I highly doubt most teams would offer to let us replay the inning and send out a new pitcher but that's just my take. We would have been accussed of being cheaters, etc. Teams are constantly asking us who pitched for us and how many innings. They aren't doing this for their health...It's probably the most talked about rule at every tournament we play in...Who has how many innings left for team X?
One additional thing I will add - I heard many folks saying the Horns cheated on purpose. I know those guys and I do not believe this to be the case. However, this was not a postion I want to be put in nor would they have want to be put in. I'm darned if I do and darned if I don't. Some will say, you shouldn't let them pitch their top guy illegal innings and others will say, let em pitch 9 innings if need be. Again, replaying the inning was easily the best way to go....
Mike |
Edited by - ecball on 06/20/2011 10:38:44 |
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BballNut
73 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2011 : 10:12:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Spartan4
I wasn't going to comment but I couldn't help myself....First congrats the the Braves for "winning" and it was gonna be a battle regardless. I do disagree that every team would take advantage of this rule, as I prefer and would hope that most men would prefer that the outcome of sporting events are determined on the field of play...maybe that is just me tho? It was my nephew who pitched too many and during the run we had I will honestly say I thought he had 3 innings left as well. After beating the Grays and Stealth in one day it is hard to leave the field and not feel good about what was accomplished by our boys. I can't help but laugh at the boys comments on the way out and on facebook wishing they could have at least finished playing the game!! 11 year old kids usually tell the truth, and there were FURIOUS and didn't feel defeated in the least......Moral of the story is EVERY single team at this level needs a secretary of some sort to keep up with their own teams innings as well as the other teams innings.....Lesson learned
It's a catch 22. I guarantee you the boys would have felt worse if they had won the game and thought they were State champs and then got the forfeit on the pitching violation. They simply would have felt cheated. On the flip side, if they knew it wouldn't count but played it out anyway and lost, we'd be debating whether they gave their best efforts since they knew it wouldn't count.
I'm confused. How does a child pitch 6 innings and go into the 7th and you all think he still had 3 more? Did the rules change for State? I'm not sure I agree you need a secretary for that. Championship game so I'm sure he had one of the better if not the best arms. It's hard to lose track on a "Sunday" pitcher. Certainly someone knew.
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christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2011 : 11:05:43
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No pony in this race, but the umps did the correct thing. I can think of a dozen different worms that could have come out of this can had they allowed the inning to be replayed. We are taught that once a forfeit is declared, DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES take part in any officiating of the game because it is no longer a sanctioned event and you leave yourself open to all sorts of trouble in the event of an unfortunate accident to a player.
It is sad that a championship games ends like this, and there have been several games that I know were forfeited because of an illegal player or pitching violation this year. But rules are rules, and it is dangerous to be a part of deciding which rules we are going to overlook on what day involving which teams on which game. It is a slippery slope that should be avoided. It is a case of unfortunate human error, and it really stinks for the kids and parents of both teams. A hollow win, and a bitter loss.
Now, IF the two teams want to play, I will volunteer to be 1/2 of the crew that calls the game provided we have an agreement that I am held harmless for any damages and injuries that could occur to any players, spectators, or coaches, and yall supply the balls! And that is a sincere offer. |
Edited by - christheump on 06/20/2011 11:34:07 |
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tae281
447 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2011 : 12:04:17
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The innings mix up was my fault, I obviously didn't keep track of the correct innings from the first game and it gave us a wrong number of available innings for the championship game. Unfortunately, nobody else from our team caught the error but the other team. Once the card from the first game was confirmed, we knew the game was a forfeit so replaying the inning or whatever was being discussed wasn't an options so that point isn't relavent as both teams knew what the outcome was going to be. I didn't hear any comments that we cheated nor do we have to, our record vs. major teams speaks for itself.
As far as keeping tracking innings from opposing teams, we do not do that or have done that in the past. I haven't done it in 3 years, we will start looking into electronic scorekeeping as that would be a much more efficient means of keeping track of these things.
Tae Cho
EC Longhorns
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2011 : 17:45:21
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| I find it interesting that everyone is chastising the teams involved but really ignoring the key reason for the rule....TO PROTECT THE KIDS!!!! Especially from adults that don't have their best long term interests at heart. I have two boys playing high school and it's not likely either of them would still be playing if they were pitchign 7 or more innings a day at a major level since 11U. It's a great reason for these rules to exist so that coaches who get caught in the heat of chasing a title late on a Sunday have decisions such as this taken out of their hands. Good for the Braves and ANY OTHER team that calls out another coach on rules violations, especially one with the primary intent of protecting the young arms. |
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jpatrick
12 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2011 : 15:17:11
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I dont think the pitcher had pitched to many innings, In the 1st game the Longhorns played that day I know as I watched the reliever pitched the 4th the 5th and the 6th inning. When the same pitcher came in in the 2nd inning to pitch against the Stealth I was thinking he could only pitch 3 innings to be legal. When I went to check the card from the previous game they only had him down for 2 innings and the starter down for 4. So it goes back to how important it is to check the card before you sign it. I know as a parent and a coach that pitching rules are in place to protect players from being over used and abused, we are very thankful to have great scorekeepers helping us to keep up with innings and pitch counts without their help we wouldn't be able to keep up with it all.
John |
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J.Foley
9 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2011 : 16:47:27
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| I know both groups of coaches personally and I can promise you there were no intentions of over pitching a kid or having a forfeit win. Seems like a simple misunderstanding to me. However rules are rules. Trust me both these teams wanted a knock down drag out game.., |
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christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2011 : 22:05:50
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| My offer still stands. |
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FLABB
183 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2011 : 14:41:56
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| Protect the kids. These tourneys mean nothing. Too many self absorbed coaches have kids throwing curves. Unbelievable! |
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Gwinnett
791 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2011 : 21:03:15
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FLABB, some of these kids don't throw a "curve" they throw a cutter which looks like a curve ball. At this level (major)a breaking ball is critical. Just cause the ball breaks doesn't mean its hurting the pitcher. Now if there throwing a true curve ball I can see your point. At the major level I haven't seen to many "true" curve balls. I usually see a modified cutter that people call a curve.
quote:
Originally posted by FLABB
Protect the kids. These tourneys mean nothing. Too many self absorbed coaches have kids throwing curves. Unbelievable!
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FLABB
183 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2011 : 19:08:17
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I fully understand that many do not throw an over the top curve but the cutter is obvious and easily recognized when thrown. As I stated there still is entirely too many curves being thrown at the travel ball and recreational levels especially in FLA. GA may be a different story but the major teams we have played, and seen play, throw the 12-6 hook and throw it entirely too much. Even the football change/curve hyper extends the elbow joint. Just like shaved bats it needs to be outlawed. But we know that will never happen.
quote:
Originally posted by Gwinnett
FLABB, some of these kids don't throw a "curve" they throw a cutter which looks like a curve ball. At this level (major)a breaking ball is critical. Just cause the ball breaks doesn't mean its hurting the pitcher. Now if there throwing a true curve ball I can see your point. At the major level I haven't seen to many "true" curve balls. I usually see a modified cutter that people call a curve.
quote:
Originally posted by FLABB
Protect the kids. These tourneys mean nothing. Too many self absorbed coaches have kids throwing curves. Unbelievable!
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Edited by - FLABB on 06/30/2011 20:45:01 |
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