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kingofthehill
40 Posts |
 Posted - 02/28/2011 : 09:04:50
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| Do Georgia Travel Teams require their players to provide birth certificates???? And if so, who checks to see if they are legit? |
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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2011 : 11:28:11
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| The Bandits do have birth certificates and they have all been checked and verified to be legit by Baseball Papa. I have given the official Papa seal of approval. If you would like to have a birth certificate printed for your child please feel free to call. |
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DecaturDad
619 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2011 : 12:07:21
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I beleive the teams are supposed to have copies of the birth certificates available. Back when my son was eight, we did have someone dispute his age. I now keep a copy of his birth certificate in his bat bag. However, that is the only time I can remember needing it.
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G-Man
326 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2011 : 22:58:54
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I personally dont give a lot of weight to birth certificates. These are too easy to change. I figure if little Johnny is a year or two older than the age group he is playing in and he does well at some point he will have to play within his own age group and it will show.
I purposed to Usssa a little over a year ago to require all players to get a passport. It cost about $100 and the documentation you have to supply for a passport means there is no chance of fraud. Fraud acquiring a passport means jail time in a federal prison. I believe those who are changing their childs birth certificates would not chance jail time if passports were required. We all already spend a lot of money to play travel ball so whats an extra $100. |
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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2011 : 08:20:28
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| Good point G-Man and when the little guys go to Japan to play we will already have the passport. I like this idea. |
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GA12
7 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2011 : 08:21:24
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| G-Man well put and I bet that would put a wrinkle into alot of teams level of play too. I am not sure how many teams are getting away with false kids but I know there are some out there always has been and always will be. I know now there are more kids that are playing up then we use to have. A few years back when they did the new Birthdate cut off I think it was great. |
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DecaturDad
619 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2011 : 08:47:27
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G-Man,
The trouble with a passport is the time it takes to get one. It could take months. I guess once you have it, it is good for 5 to 10 years depending on the kids age. But what happens when someone moves from rec to travel and does not have one?
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seminole tony
147 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2011 : 09:16:27
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I have wrote in past topics that I think when a child starts USSSA baseball he should register and provide a birth certificate then. No matter what team he plays with in the future, his birth certificate will already be on file. Provide a roster every year(each team) w/picture and name(I know you might have questions about a photo, but you would be able to confirm idenities right away if an opposing team has a player question). USSSA updates it's data base and we won't have age/player arguments at tournaments. Plus think of the safety factors that could be aided if a child comes up missing or abducted. Most travel ball players tend to start early in age and at that time there's not the need to falsify records. This will also keep players from playing illegally on many different teams during one season.
Register with a tournament and USSSA will be able to print a complete roster for each T.D. of every team. Anyone submitting a different roster would have to be checked out before being allowed to participate. Shouldn't this be part of our register fee paid to USSSA every year. Lets get some return on our money. |
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Calif_Baseball
292 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2011 : 14:03:55
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Coaches are required to carry a book with all birth certificates of players in it. Along with a current picture and Insurance. They check them at the start of every tournament when you check in. If a player that is on the roster does not have a BC in the book, He does not play..
The bigger problem we have in CA. is the BC from Mexico. As most of you know they don't keep great records in that part of the world. You are seeing more and more BC from south of the boarder. If that is what they have to do to win a $2.00 medal then more power to them. |
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G-Man
326 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2011 : 14:40:28
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Applying for a BC takes about 3-6 weeks to receive. So its no big deal and they are good for 10 years. The problem is that its not very hard to change a BC. Anyone with a computer, laser printer and a good OCR software can change one in about 2 mins. Even the original one can be changed with a couple more pieces of equipment and knowhow. Not to mention but there are also services online that for a fee will give you a new BC. Of course those companies claim its just for hoax purposes.
As one poster stated. If anyone has to do this for a $2 medal more power to them. However my personal opinion its not about the medals. Its about the parents having their kids standout in that particular age group or those kids cant compete in their own age group for whatever reason and they just want little or BIG Johnny to be able to play more.
Another way to get rid of most of this, not all but most. Is change the rules to playing with your own grade level. Sure there will be again parents who will hold little Johnny back in school but it wont be as bad as the issues with BC's. |
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kingofthehill
40 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2011 : 17:21:16
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| Well, we played a team last year from Georgia. And it looked like they all drove to the park. And it was obvious that the coach was questionable as to his legal status. And I am saying that and I live in St Pete now. NOT CINCY. I was just wondering if you guys see a lot of fake stuff. |
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mlbscout
77 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2011 : 21:04:32
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quote:
Originally posted by G-Man
Applying for a BC takes about 3-6 weeks to receive. So its no big deal and they are good for 10 years. The problem is that its not very hard to change a BC. Anyone with a computer, laser printer and a good OCR software can change one in about 2 mins. Even the original one can be changed with a couple more pieces of equipment and knowhow. Not to mention but there are also services online that for a fee will give you a new BC. Of course those companies claim its just for hoax purposes.
As one poster stated. If anyone has to do this for a $2 medal more power to them. However my personal opinion its not about the medals. Its about the parents having their kids standout in that particular age group or those kids cant compete in their own age group for whatever reason and they just want little or BIG Johnny to be able to play more.
Another way to get rid of most of this, not all but most. Is change the rules to playing with your own grade level. Sure there will be again parents who will hold little Johnny back in school but it wont be as bad as the issues with BC's.
I'm sure you meant that applying for a passport takes 3-6 weeks. Applying for a birth certificate can take a lot less time. You can actually get a passport within days if needed. Of course, there are added fees.
It is hard for me to believe that in US travel baseball there is a lot of birth certificate fraud. I am aware of this going on at all levels of baseball in other parts of the world. I'm sure everyone remembers the infamous Danny Almonte.
G-man seems to be very well versed on fake birth certificates and writes as if he has proof that this is a common ocurrence. Is this a fact or are you simply speculating? If one suspects that a player is over age, there are many ways to prove it. One cannot alter the computerized birth records in this country. Also, if a formal accusation is made, the governing body (USSSA, AAU, Little League, Babe Ruth) can confirm the age at the school the player attends.
Do you know of any cases were there was no doubt that a kid played illegally with a fake birth certificate? How did you determine that the certificate was not real? You are making serious accusations and to do that you need to have proof. Do I believe that this has ocurred once in a while with players born outside of the US? Yes, but not to the degree that you and others suggest. |
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mlbscout
77 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2011 : 21:09:43
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quote:
Originally posted by kingofthehill
Well, we played a team last year from Georgia. And it looked like they all drove to the park. And it was obvious that the coach was questionable as to his legal status. And I am saying that and I live in St Pete now. NOT CINCY. I was just wondering if you guys see a lot of fake stuff.
Many travel teams have at least one player who looks bigger than the coaches. Often, he is the youngest player on the team. Looking as if they all drove to the park is an overused expression which most of the time is a great exageration. Let's not get carried away. |
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G-Man
326 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2011 : 21:48:30
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Having lived and played in Florida I can tell you that there is more fake BC's in Fla than Ga.
quote:
Originally posted by kingofthehill
Well, we played a team last year from Georgia. And it looked like they all drove to the park. And it was obvious that the coach was questionable as to his legal status. And I am saying that and I live in St Pete now. NOT CINCY. I was just wondering if you guys see a lot of fake stuff.
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Calif_Baseball
292 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2011 : 22:50:57
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It has been my experience in Calif. that the BIG kid is not the one they are sneaking in. It is the little ones that are 2 year over age. Most TD turn the naked eye to it. Because the $$ is to big. I was at a tourney and a kid took off his shirt to put on a jersey and he had lots of hair under his arms...he was suppose to be 10..LOL
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2011 : 23:43:18
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MLB, do you believe it happens with kids born inside the US??
Two years ago we played at the Grand Slam 10U Session 2 World Series, and one particular team had a boy who was RIPPED!! This kid had hard stubble for facial hair, threw mid-high 60s(not guessing we had a gun) and hit a HR that hit the second fence not the temporary fence I believe it was 300ft but I could be wrong. He was the only kid I have seen I really question if he was really his age. Plus his mom FLIPPED out when all the boys from 3-4 teams were playing tips and a 12U brother from out team asked him how old he was. She got extremely defensive but that might have just been from constantly having to answer the same question over and over and over again. |
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mlbscout
77 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2011 : 10:54:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Spartan4
MLB, do you believe it happens with kids born inside the US??
Two years ago we played at the Grand Slam 10U Session 2 World Series, and one particular team had a boy who was RIPPED!! This kid had hard stubble for facial hair, threw mid-high 60s(not guessing we had a gun) and hit a HR that hit the second fence not the temporary fence I believe it was 300ft but I could be wrong. He was the only kid I have seen I really question if he was really his age. Plus his mom FLIPPED out when all the boys from 3-4 teams were playing tips and a 12U brother from out team asked him how old he was. She got extremely defensive but that might have just been from constantly having to answer the same question over and over and over again.
To answer your question: yes, I believe it could happen with kids born in the USA but it rarely happens. Most likely it could happen as an isolated event not requiring alteration of a birth certificate. I know of one particular case where that very thing ocurred. A kid who was 10 years old pitched a game in place of his brother who was 9. No birth certificate was requested and the family thought it was funny. The reason I know this happened is because I know the family and I confronted them and the coach.
The type of player you are describing in your recent post (ripped) is precisely the kid most likely to be legal. Appearances can be deceiving. As I stated in my recent post, the bigger kids are not the ones you should be suspicious of. We have never questioned the age of an opposing player, whether big or small. I guess we may be naive.
One of the posters (G-man) seems to have definitive proof that altering birth certificates is a common ocurrence in travel baseball. He claims this is much more common in the state of Florida than in Georgia. It is very easy to make such claims, but much more difficult to provide proof. I wish that he or anyone else who believes this happens with some frequency, to provide some type of proof. Just because a player looks older than his age does not equal to altering official documents.Where is the evidence? |
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DecaturDad
619 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2011 : 11:11:20
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quote:
Originally posted by kingofthehill
Well, we played a team last year from Georgia. And it looked like they all drove to the park. And it was obvious that the coach was questionable as to his legal status. And I am saying that and I live in St Pete now. NOT CINCY. I was just wondering if you guys see a lot of fake stuff.
I get this from my son all the time. He is currently 11U. (Born May 12, 1999) I know this is his correct birth day because I was there. However, he is 5'9" tall and weighs 185 pounds. We are continually getting comments that he is too old. First, why would I want to have him play for an age group he was not eligable to play in? Second, if you have a concern, please bring it up with the coach or TD. My son is very aware of his size, and does not need every parent from every opposing team to ask if he drove to the field. (Sorry for the rant. But a weekend does not go by without at least one person questioning his age. This happens in all sports, not just baseball.) |
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sports_junkie
12 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2011 : 12:32:24
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DecaturDad - I remember him driving himself to the field at Medlock Park in that Miata when he played 7U coach pitch. :)
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G-Man
326 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2011 : 12:47:21
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MLB, first welcome to the board. 2ND Why do you sound so defensive about this subject? As for proof MLB we are here discussing this issue not policing it. However I can give you 4 times I have witnessed this issue in the last year.
First was 2 kids last year playing for a 12u team ( same 12u team ) who were found out to be 14 and was suspended by Usssa. The next was a young man who is playing 12u and 11u this year and my son played with another boy who is in this other kids class who says the boy is 12 years old not 11yrs. Lastly I put together a pickup team early in the fall. I got BC's from all my players. This was a 12u team. A friend of mine called me telling me about this young man playing for him in a Major tournament for 11u. I told this friend that this kid was 12u not 11u. My friend said he had a BC that showed he was 11u. I pulled my files and me and this other coach compared birthdates on the BCs we had and they did not match. Everything else was the same but the year born and the date of birth were different.
Also if you want see how much of this really goes on. Look at the Super Series website. They list all suspensions and the reasons for them. See how many have been suspended for BC fraud.
Now as its been mentioned. If someone is cheating by playing down in age group. Hey more power to them. It will catch up and when it does they will be way behind their true age group from a skill perspective. I dont have these worries. My son is 11 yrs and plays for a 14u travel ball team. So no matter what we are always playing against young men much bigger than he is.
quote:
Originally posted by mlbscout
quote:
Originally posted by Spartan4
MLB, do you believe it happens with kids born inside the US??
Two years ago we played at the Grand Slam 10U Session 2 World Series, and one particular team had a boy who was RIPPED!! This kid had hard stubble for facial hair, threw mid-high 60s(not guessing we had a gun) and hit a HR that hit the second fence not the temporary fence I believe it was 300ft but I could be wrong. He was the only kid I have seen I really question if he was really his age. Plus his mom FLIPPED out when all the boys from 3-4 teams were playing tips and a 12U brother from out team asked him how old he was. She got extremely defensive but that might have just been from constantly having to answer the same question over and over and over again.
To answer your question: yes, I believe it could happen with kids born in the USA but it rarely happens. Most likely it could happen as an isolated event not requiring alteration of a birth certificate. I know of one particular case where that very thing ocurred. A kid who was 10 years old pitched a game in place of his brother who was 9. No birth certificate was requested and the family thought it was funny. The reason I know this happened is because I know the family and I confronted them and the coach.
The type of player you are describing in your recent post (ripped) is precisely the kid most likely to be legal. Appearances can be deceiving. As I stated in my recent post, the bigger kids are not the ones you should be suspicious of. We have never questioned the age of an opposing player, whether big or small. I guess we may be naive.
One of the posters (G-man) seems to have definitive proof that altering birth certificates is a common ocurrence in travel baseball. He claims this is much more common in the state of Florida than in Georgia. It is very easy to make such claims, but much more difficult to provide proof. I wish that he or anyone else who believes this happens with some frequency, to provide some type of proof. Just because a player looks older than his age does not equal to altering official documents.Where is the evidence?
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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2011 : 13:02:07
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| When the Chainsaw was eight years old he hit 4 home runs out on a 180 foot field in one game and as we was shaking hand the opposing coach graciously I might add asked if the Chainsaw could drive a couple of his kids home. I used to keep multiple birth certificates at this age for him but now that the other kids are growing and he has slimmed up so that many of you don't even recognize him I rarely get asked the birth certificate thing anymore. |
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coachtony
236 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2011 : 14:09:58
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quote:
Originally posted by DecaturDad
My son is very aware of his size, and does not need every parent from every opposing team to ask if he drove to the field. (Sorry for the rant. But a weekend does not go by without at least one person questioning his age. This happens in all sports, not just baseball.)
I agree, DD. Same thing happens every single weekend with my son, as well. Normally it happens right after he shuts down the #3, 4, and 5 hitters or he jacks a HR and it is always followed with a slight chuckle as if to say "I am only kidding....no I am not....yes, I am.....not really".
--T
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DecaturDad
619 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2011 : 14:30:50
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quote:
Originally posted by sports_junkie
DecaturDad - I remember him driving himself to the field at Medlock Park in that Miata when he played 7U coach pitch. :)
Yes. He can drive a stick, but only when mom is not looking :-)
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sports_junkie
12 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2011 : 15:20:56
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I think DD knows that I am truly, honestly kidding. I have had the pleasure of knowing and coaching his son since the first year that he was 7 years old.
No really - he was one of those kids with a May birthday that got to repeat a year when they changed the age cutoff. |
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mlbscout
77 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2011 : 19:47:22
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Thank you for the information, I guess I'm more naive than others. I wonder if other posters have documented proof of birth certificate fraud. One thing is to play a tournament with the wrong age group and another is to alter the birth certificate. However, if you have seen it< I'll take your word.
Your son is age 11 and is playing with 14 year olds? He must be a big boy or a true stud. I know of no other kids able to play up by 3 years. Aren't you afraid he might get hurt? How well does he do against the older kids?
quote:
Originally posted by G-Man
MLB, first welcome to the board. 2ND Why do you sound so defensive about this subject? As for proof MLB we are here discussing this issue not policing it. However I can give you 4 times I have witnessed this issue in the last year.
First was 2 kids last year playing for a 12u team ( same 12u team ) who were found out to be 14 and was suspended by Usssa. The next was a young man who is playing 12u and 11u this year and my son played with another boy who is in this other kids class who says the boy is 12 years old not 11yrs. Lastly I put together a pickup team early in the fall. I got BC's from all my players. This was a 12u team. A friend of mine called me telling me about this young man playing for him in a Major tournament for 11u. I told this friend that this kid was 12u not 11u. My friend said he had a BC that showed he was 11u. I pulled my files and me and this other coach compared birthdates on the BCs we had and they did not match. Everything else was the same but the year born and the date of birth were different.
Also if you want see how much of this really goes on. Look at the Super Series website. They list all suspensions and the reasons for them. See how many have been suspended for BC fraud.
Now as its been mentioned. If someone is cheating by playing down in age group. Hey more power to them. It will catch up and when it does they will be way behind their true age group from a skill perspective. I dont have these worries. My son is 11 yrs and plays for a 14u travel ball team. So no matter what we are always playing against young men much bigger than he is.
quote:
Originally posted by mlbscout
quote:
Originally posted by Spartan4
MLB, do you believe it happens with kids born inside the US??
Two years ago we played at the Grand Slam 10U Session 2 World Series, and one particular team had a boy who was RIPPED!! This kid had hard stubble for facial hair, threw mid-high 60s(not guessing we had a gun) and hit a HR that hit the second fence not the temporary fence I believe it was 300ft but I could be wrong. He was the only kid I have seen I really question if he was really his age. Plus his mom FLIPPED out when all the boys from 3-4 teams were playing tips and a 12U brother from out team asked him how old he was. She got extremely defensive but that might have just been from constantly having to answer the same question over and over and over again.
To answer your question: yes, I believe it could happen with kids born in the USA but it rarely happens. Most likely it could happen as an isolated event not requiring alteration of a birth certificate. I know of one particular case where that very thing ocurred. A kid who was 10 years old pitched a game in place of his brother who was 9. No birth certificate was requested and the family thought it was funny. The reason I know this happened is because I know the family and I confronted them and the coach.
The type of player you are describing in your recent post (ripped) is precisely the kid most likely to be legal. Appearances can be deceiving. As I stated in my recent post, the bigger kids are not the ones you should be suspicious of. We have never questioned the age of an opposing player, whether big or small. I guess we may be naive.
One of the posters (G-man) seems to have definitive proof that altering birth certificates is a common ocurrence in travel baseball. He claims this is much more common in the state of Florida than in Georgia. It is very easy to make such claims, but much more difficult to provide proof. I wish that he or anyone else who believes this happens with some frequency, to provide some type of proof. Just because a player looks older than his age does not equal to altering official documents.Where is the evidence?
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G-Man
326 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2011 : 21:19:46
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I have seen proof in the past but as I mentioned in my other post. If all these organizations would require the players to get passports it would cut out 99.99% of the fraud.
As for my son being a big kid..Nope! He is 5'3 90 lbs. He starts at SS for the 14u team and hits 2nd in the lineup. I wouldnt call him a stud but he does compete with these older young men and so far earned their respect. I will be curious however later this summer to see how he will be received at a Perfect Game 14u WWBA Showcase tournament starting at SS in June at ECB.
quote:
Originally posted by mlbscout
Thank you for the information, I guess I'm more naive than others. I wonder if other posters have documented proof of birth certificate fraud. One thing is to play a tournament with the wrong age group and another is to alter the birth certificate. However, if you have seen it< I'll take your word.
Your son is age 11 and is playing with 14 year olds? He must be a big boy or a true stud. I know of no other kids able to play up by 3 years. Aren't you afraid he might get hurt? How well does he do against the older kids?
quote:
Originally posted by G-Man
MLB, first welcome to the board. 2ND Why do you sound so defensive about this subject? As for proof MLB we are here discussing this issue not policing it. However I can give you 4 times I have witnessed this issue in the last year.
First was 2 kids last year playing for a 12u team ( same 12u team ) who were found out to be 14 and was suspended by Usssa. The next was a young man who is playing 12u and 11u this year and my son played with another boy who is in this other kids class who says the boy is 12 years old not 11yrs. Lastly I put together a pickup team early in the fall. I got BC's from all my players. This was a 12u team. A friend of mine called me telling me about this young man playing for him in a Major tournament for 11u. I told this friend that this kid was 12u not 11u. My friend said he had a BC that showed he was 11u. I pulled my files and me and this other coach compared birthdates on the BCs we had and they did not match. Everything else was the same but the year born and the date of birth were different.
Also if you want see how much of this really goes on. Look at the Super Series website. They list all suspensions and the reasons for them. See how many have been suspended for BC fraud.
Now as its been mentioned. If someone is cheating by playing down in age group. Hey more power to them. It will catch up and when it does they will be way behind their true age group from a skill perspective. I dont have these worries. My son is 11 yrs and plays for a 14u travel ball team. So no matter what we are always playing against young men much bigger than he is.
quote:
Originally posted by mlbscout
quote:
Originally posted by Spartan4
MLB, do you believe it happens with kids born inside the US??
Two years ago we played at the Grand Slam 10U Session 2 World Series, and one particular team had a boy who was RIPPED!! This kid had hard stubble for facial hair, threw mid-high 60s(not guessing we had a gun) and hit a HR that hit the second fence not the temporary fence I believe it was 300ft but I could be wrong. He was the only kid I have seen I really question if he was really his age. Plus his mom FLIPPED out when all the boys from 3-4 teams were playing tips and a 12U brother from out team asked him how old he was. She got extremely defensive but that might have just been from constantly having to answer the same question over and over and over again.
To answer your question: yes, I believe it could happen with kids born in the USA but it rarely happens. Most likely it could happen as an isolated event not requiring alteration of a birth certificate. I know of one particular case where that very thing ocurred. A kid who was 10 years old pitched a game in place of his brother who was 9. No birth certificate was requested and the family thought it was funny. The reason I know this happened is because I know the family and I confronted them and the coach.
The type of player you are describing in your recent post (ripped) is precisely the kid most likely to be legal. Appearances can be deceiving. As I stated in my recent post, the bigger kids are not the ones you should be suspicious of. We have never questioned the age of an opposing player, whether big or small. I guess we may be naive.
One of the posters (G-man) seems to have definitive proof that altering birth certificates is a common ocurrence in travel baseball. He claims this is much more common in the state of Florida than in Georgia. It is very easy to make such claims, but much more difficult to provide proof. I wish that he or anyone else who believes this happens with some frequency, to provide some type of proof. Just because a player looks older than his age does not equal to altering official documents.Where is the evidence?
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