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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| RoamingCF |
Posted - 10/23/2017 : 20:17:38
Nearly everyone agrees that the CF8’s & CFZen’s are simply the hottest bats...EVER!
New USA bat standards & tournament “sanctioning” bodies have essentially banned CF8’s & CFZen’s (-10, -8), due to the unbelievable pop. For safety. But for some reason, we are allowing these same Drop 5’s to remain in play? Have you seen the way larger kids hit these bats? Do we really want the top end 12-13u kids/teams swinging these CF Zen -5’s? Our tourney directors line up pool play with top teams facing lower tier teams, and we all watch in amazement as little Johnny (all 160 lbs) tees off on little Billy’s (all 100 lbs, soaking wet) pitching, and blast homers some 300+ feet.
We have a HUGE gap in the bat standards between BB-COR and the Drop 10/8 restrictions.
TOURNEY DIRECTORS - I challenge you to fix this. You’ve gone 95% of way - GO THE DISTANCE. We are only waiting for an accident. |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Gatravelbaseball |
Posted - 10/31/2017 : 15:31:13
When most people think of this:
"a TD trying to balance a schedule"
They're going to think of a TD doing exactly what they generally do (and should do), which is to set it up so the top teams aren't knocking each other out in pool play. That's what makes the most sense, for all the reasons cited by others above.
quote:
Originally posted by RUSemiPro
All I'm saying is I have no problem with a TD trying to balance a schedule, but playing favorites and giving some of these guys the pick of the litter and even requesting their opponents seems a little self serving.
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
It's really not such a big deal under 15 any way. As others have pointed out, some kids really don't know what they have and it's a good chance to get noticed or realize what you need to work on. While you don't want to put your boys in a situation where they get crushed week after week, if they are at least playing competitively it always serves them better to play against good competition. Better to go 0-3 but have them all be less than 5 run losses than to play down and be the ones crushing everyone else. It's important for pitchers to go up against top batters and vice versa. Fielding is at a whole different level against good bats. Development IS the name of the game. However, develop your way up gradually. If you're D3 play D2 don't go straight to D1 tourneys. It's more productive developmentally when they at least feel like they have a chance, imo.
I also think the directors do a pretty good job of spreading the talent out. It makes no sense to put all the top teams in 1 pool and then have only 1 go through with a bunch of much less skilled teams. There is the opportunity for more teams to play more competitvely against some of them this way, and that does happen. And rarely do top teams use their best pitching against weaker opponents in pool play. Like was noted above, it gives their kids who rarely pitch a chance to show what THEY'VE got. No top team is going to throw their ace against a low AAA team or AA in pool play. So really not a lot of "beating up" going on. And if they DO have to put him there to win as the game progresses, then congrats because YOUR boys are officially playing up.
Very good point. Let's say all the best teams were in one pool....then what? Then you have the elite team mercy ruling every team in the bronze bracket, yeah, that would be a blast for all those teams. This would of course be shortly before all the posts about the top team sandbagging to get into the bronze bracket to win the berth to Myrtle Beach.
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| Crazyforbball |
Posted - 10/31/2017 : 15:08:47
That I agree with semipro! And yes, once the real season gets going certain teams DO get the opponents/times/locations they want no doubt about it, and certain teams do get the deck stacked to make sure they go through...i.e. the stud teams don't usually get the high AAA in pool that just might knock them out or make them burn good pitching. No doubt about it. But I was talking mainly about the cluster with a huge talent spread that is fall ball. And yes! Wood! I've said it time and again here, doesn't anyone remember the wood bat tourneys when we were 9-10 And how great they were..and usually my comment is the last one on that topic...lol |
| RUSemiPro |
Posted - 10/31/2017 : 12:21:54
No not saying purposely match them up in pool everytime either, what I'm saying is don't go out of your way either to separate them from one another. Every now and then make one of the pools exciting and mean something.
Hey look it really doesn't matter to me, We get the schedule we show up, I write checks. All I'm saying is I have no problem with a TD trying to balance a schedule, but playing favorites and giving some of these guys the pick of the litter and even requesting their opponents seems a little self serving.
We will agree to disagree on this one.
But we will ALL agree even Punishers that WOOD IS GOOD. I too would like to see a lot more wood at the younger groups as well, you wont have moon shots, but you will find out who can hit and who can't really quick. Might be good for TD's you likely will get all your innings in before hitting time limits, the games will be cleaner and quicker and no more complaints on player saftey (although someone will think of something)!
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
It's really not such a big deal under 15 any way. As others have pointed out, some kids really don't know what they have and it's a good chance to get noticed or realize what you need to work on. While you don't want to put your boys in a situation where they get crushed week after week, if they are at least playing competitively it always serves them better to play against good competition. Better to go 0-3 but have them all be less than 5 run losses than to play down and be the ones crushing everyone else. It's important for pitchers to go up against top batters and vice versa. Fielding is at a whole different level against good bats. Development IS the name of the game. However, develop your way up gradually. If you're D3 play D2 don't go straight to D1 tourneys. It's more productive developmentally when they at least feel like they have a chance, imo.
I also think the directors do a pretty good job of spreading the talent out. It makes no sense to put all the top teams in 1 pool and then have only 1 go through with a bunch of much less skilled teams. There is the opportunity for more teams to play more competitvely against some of them this way, and that does happen. And rarely do top teams use their best pitching against weaker opponents in pool play. Like was noted above, it gives their kids who rarely pitch a chance to show what THEY'VE got. No top team is going to throw their ace against a low AAA team or AA in pool play. So really not a lot of "beating up" going on. And if they DO have to put him there to win as the game progresses, then congrats because YOUR boys are officially playing up.
Very good point. Let's say all the best teams were in one pool....then what? Then you have the elite team mercy ruling every team in the bronze bracket, yeah, that would be a blast for all those teams. This would of course be shortly before all the posts about the top team sandbagging to get into the bronze bracket to win the berth to Myrtle Beach.
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| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 10/31/2017 : 11:14:49
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
It's really not such a big deal under 15 any way. As others have pointed out, some kids really don't know what they have and it's a good chance to get noticed or realize what you need to work on. While you don't want to put your boys in a situation where they get crushed week after week, if they are at least playing competitively it always serves them better to play against good competition. Better to go 0-3 but have them all be less than 5 run losses than to play down and be the ones crushing everyone else. It's important for pitchers to go up against top batters and vice versa. Fielding is at a whole different level against good bats. Development IS the name of the game. However, develop your way up gradually. If you're D3 play D2 don't go straight to D1 tourneys. It's more productive developmentally when they at least feel like they have a chance, imo.
I also think the directors do a pretty good job of spreading the talent out. It makes no sense to put all the top teams in 1 pool and then have only 1 go through with a bunch of much less skilled teams. There is the opportunity for more teams to play more competitvely against some of them this way, and that does happen. And rarely do top teams use their best pitching against weaker opponents in pool play. Like was noted above, it gives their kids who rarely pitch a chance to show what THEY'VE got. No top team is going to throw their ace against a low AAA team or AA in pool play. So really not a lot of "beating up" going on. And if they DO have to put him there to win as the game progresses, then congrats because YOUR boys are officially playing up.
Very good point. Let's say all the best teams were in one pool....then what? Then you have the elite team mercy ruling every team in the bronze bracket, yeah, that would be a blast for all those teams. This would of course be shortly before all the posts about the top team sandbagging to get into the bronze bracket to win the berth to Myrtle Beach. |
| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 10/31/2017 : 09:49:36
quote:
Originally posted by RUSemiPro
Yep you made my point, by not making them play each other in pool play then they can continually finish high and that is the point.
If these teams are really that good, then what is the problem with them playing each other in pool play? God forbid a Local team or "Daddy Ball" team make a gold bracket let alone a run deep.
The only two elite teams that should have any privileges should be the Northside Narwhals and ECB Astros. A gold bracket without those two is simply fools gold...
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
They aren't labeled elite because of their gold bracket appearances, they are labeled elite for their wins or second place finishes. Gold bracket is for the best teams to advance. If you have all the best teams play each other in pool play you don't have the best teams advance.
They continually finish high because they are good. If you are tired of your kids team not making the gold bracket then you have two choices. 1. Don't play in the events that have the major teams or 2. Have your kid tryout and join one of those teams.
But really this all comes down to the older your kid gets the less cupcake teams are around. Give it a minute. |
| Crazyforbball |
Posted - 10/31/2017 : 09:21:03
It's really not such a big deal under 15 any way. As others have pointed out, some kids really don't know what they have and it's a good chance to get noticed or realize what you need to work on. While you don't want to put your boys in a situation where they get crushed week after week, if they are at least playing competitively it always serves them better to play against good competition. Better to go 0-3 but have them all be less than 5 run losses than to play down and be the ones crushing everyone else. It's important for pitchers to go up against top batters and vice versa. Fielding is at a whole different level against good bats. Development IS the name of the game. However, develop your way up gradually. If you're D3 play D2 don't go straight to D1 tourneys. It's more productive developmentally when they at least feel like they have a chance, imo.
I also think the directors do a pretty good job of spreading the talent out. It makes no sense to put all the top teams in 1 pool and then have only 1 go through with a bunch of much less skilled teams. There is the opportunity for more teams to play more competitvely against some of them this way, and that does happen. And rarely do top teams use their best pitching against weaker opponents in pool play. Like was noted above, it gives their kids who rarely pitch a chance to show what THEY'VE got. No top team is going to throw their ace against a low AAA team or AA in pool play. So really not a lot of "beating up" going on. And if they DO have to put him there to win as the game progresses, then congrats because YOUR boys are officially playing up.
|
| RUSemiPro |
Posted - 10/30/2017 : 23:51:28
Yep you made my point, by not making them play each other in pool play then they can continually finish high and that is the point.
If these teams are really that good, then what is the problem with them playing each other in pool play? God forbid a Local team or "Daddy Ball" team make a gold bracket let alone a run deep.
The only two elite teams that should have any privileges should be the Northside Narwhals and ECB Astros. A gold bracket without those two is simply fools gold...
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
They aren't labeled elite because of their gold bracket appearances, they are labeled elite for their wins or second place finishes. Gold bracket is for the best teams to advance. If you have all the best teams play each other in pool play you don't have the best teams advance.
|
| Hurricane |
Posted - 10/30/2017 : 11:53:52
I think there should be some type of seeding process. Even Perfect Game has screwed me a few times where I had to throw my best pitchers in pool play to just make bracket and you look over and see 4 AAA teams going 1-1-1 and advancing in bracket. Usually though once you make a statement in Pool play or bracket the PG guys realize where you should be and even it out some or seed a little bit so they get the best teams in bracket. I think it should be the same way at Triple Crown especially gold silver bronze brackets, Pool play is to warm up and see what you got, when you go to bracket you want to be facing teams like you not Stud teams that run through bracket or weak teams that should be in the bronze. |
| BamaDad |
Posted - 10/30/2017 : 11:41:27
As the saying goes, "iron sharpens iron". You can only tell how good your are or how much work you need by competing against the best. Those "open" tournaments in the Fall and early Spring allow for that to happen. Some kids realize that they are just as good as those playing for the "elite" teams while others have a reality check.
I know of kid playing for a AA team against Major teams in an open TC tournament. The kid stood out so much that he was invited to pickup with an elite team the following week at PG. The kid went from playing defense for 45 minutes in one inning with multiple errors to playing an entire 6 inning game in 1:15 with no errors by either team. He came back and worked his butt off and made an elite team in the following Spring.
The Fall and early Spring are great times to let you boys see the best play and hopefully help them set personal goals. As stated above, the overall purpose at 13U and younger is development. Not many kids are being recruited at 13. Coaches only concerned about padding win records or stats don't really care about the kids' developing into better players. They only care about bragging about their W/L record. |
| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 10/30/2017 : 09:54:04
quote:
Originally posted by RUSemiPro
What I am saying is IF these elite/major teams had to play one another occasionally in pool play and not call in or request their opponents or game times. They may not be making as many Gold Bracket appearances or records be so inflated, and maybe not be labeled so ELITE. It is much easier to win your 1st round game on Sunday when you know you've been handed 2 cupcakes on Saturday and don't have to blow your pitching to get there. Gives those teams an advantage in that 1st elimination round against the so called "daddy ball", local or lesser teams, so these ELITE teams can make the deeper run.
All I am saying is if we are going to "Level" the playing field in the spirit of fair play, look at everything and don't just cry about the bats. At the end of the day it's a competition and everyone is trying to win. I get it, people will do whatever it takes I guess.
But you say 643, ECB and Team Elite are too good to play each other in pool play? Why? Perception? History? Entitlement? All I'm saying is it happens and it's an advantage, not illegal just like the zen drop 5's....
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
As for "rigged pool play draws"....dude...really? So the 643 Cougars, ECB Astros, and Team Elite Prime should all play each other in pool play, knock two of them down to silver and bronze so Team XYZ daddy ball can make it into the gold bracket?
They aren't labeled elite because of their gold bracket appearances, they are labeled elite for their wins or second place finishes. Gold bracket is for the best teams to advance. If you have all the best teams play each other in pool play you don't have the best teams advance.
And if the elite teams pitch the bottom of their pitching pen in pool play that shows their depth, and gives those kids some reps on the mound. Johnny may be the most elite SS on the planet but his real love is pitching, those "cupcake" pool play games are his shot to get some mound time in. In other words, they serve a purpose to the kids development, and that is what this is suppose to be about.
If you don't want to play the elite teams, or only have 3 decent pitchers, then do as crazyforbball recommends. If you see the list becoming stacked find a different tourney. However, I do not think that is in the best interest of the kids. To become better you have to see and play against better. |
| RamblinWreck93 |
Posted - 10/29/2017 : 09:54:07
I agree with all the points Crazyforbball made. The only thing that I would add is that I like using fall as a measuring stick and have my team play in some open tournaments where we are one of the weaker teams. Playing against better teams not only helps to see what I have but also serves as example of what “good” looks like for the players on my team. Entering tournaments where the other teams are clearly below your level doesn’t help you get better.
I also agree with many of the points Punishers has said in this post (and others) about using wood bats. I think it would be safer, level the playing field to a certain degree, and eliminate this nonsense of rolling or shaving composite bats. |
| Crazyforbball |
Posted - 10/28/2017 : 08:31:07
To the points above about pool play, in fall it's just a shake out. Come spring, tournaments SHOULD be, and usually are, in line with talent. As turntwo points out, you have your division D1 D2 etc. at TC. PG has majors vs non majors separations. Even Grand Slam divides it up. In the fall no sense stressing over it it's largely for some reps and learning who can do what. Granted wins/losses will affect your team record so if that's a concern, choose your tournaments accordingly. Same thing in spring. If you are a AA team don't sign up for D1. If you start to see the lineup stack up with Astros, Jackets, Cougars, drop out of that one. Likewise the clear majors teams shouldn't be signing up for a lineup made up of primarily AA/low AAA team's to get their fall reps in because that's lame. |
| Punishers |
Posted - 10/27/2017 : 20:23:00
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by Hurricane
I have always said wood would end all the mess. Safer and teams would have more feilds they could play on with wood. Cooperstown with wood would mean most teams would have 3 or less kids hit home runs with the bats they use now every kid on the team has a chance to hit one. I understand this might be the only time a kid can hit a homerun in his life, but I still say if you are trying to wear uniforms like the old school players etc might as well use wood.
Kudos!
I doubt the tournament directors would do wood bat at youth level. Games would be boring and low scoring. Instead of seeing 20 HR in a tournament, there might be just 1. Too much like real baseball.
USA claims there is a wood shortage by their bat rule statement. I highly doubt that. Some of us have more maple on our floors than MLB teams have all season.
Too simple to regulate drop per age. (being sarcastic) People usually have 3 bats for their kids anyway, so it's not a money issue especially if you are playing travel ball.
Taking my young one to the cages tonight before it rains tomorrow. What are we swinging?
Marucci AP5
Chandler J42
Sambat 2K1
All wood, just difference balance points.
I just did the math. That's 3 high end wood bats at the same price of a demarini zen plus tax. |
| turntwo |
Posted - 10/27/2017 : 15:18:13
Perhaps this happens every year... But it is VERY noticeable in the fall. When you have elite teams (Astros, Jackets, Team Elite, etc) playing in the same 1-day tourneys with AA/AAA teams, and yes, it could be dangerous for a lower level 3B to be in the 'firing line' of a 6+ foot elite major kid hitting missiles down the line. But, come spring, there's D1 and then D2/D3 tourneys and outside of a couple of kids, everything is more 'even'. First, your elite Major teams are probably in 14U, or if they are playing in a 13U tourney it would be either 60/90 or at the very least, against similar competition-- where your 3B is better suited (athletically) to field said missiles... Or maybe not. Maybe this is a rarity. |
| RUSemiPro |
Posted - 10/27/2017 : 15:11:27
What I am saying is IF these elite/major teams had to play one another occasionally in pool play and not call in or request their opponents or game times. They may not be making as many Gold Bracket appearances or records be so inflated, and maybe not be labeled so ELITE. It is much easier to win your 1st round game on Sunday when you know you've been handed 2 cupcakes on Saturday and don't have to blow your pitching to get there. Gives those teams an advantage in that 1st elimination round against the so called "daddy ball", local or lesser teams, so these ELITE teams can make the deeper run.
All I am saying is if we are going to "Level" the playing field in the spirit of fair play, look at everything and don't just cry about the bats. At the end of the day it's a competition and everyone is trying to win. I get it, people will do whatever it takes I guess.
But you say 643, ECB and Team Elite are too good to play each other in pool play? Why? Perception? History? Entitlement? All I'm saying is it happens and it's an advantage, not illegal just like the zen drop 5's....
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
As for "rigged pool play draws"....dude...really? So the 643 Cougars, ECB Astros, and Team Elite Prime should all play each other in pool play, knock two of them down to silver and bronze so Team XYZ daddy ball can make it into the gold bracket?
|
| Punishers |
Posted - 10/27/2017 : 14:41:55
quote:
Originally posted by Hurricane
I have always said wood would end all the mess. Safer and teams would have more feilds they could play on with wood. Cooperstown with wood would mean most teams would have 3 or less kids hit home runs with the bats they use now every kid on the team has a chance to hit one. I understand this might be the only time a kid can hit a homerun in his life, but I still say if you are trying to wear uniforms like the old school players etc might as well use wood.
Kudos!
I doubt the tournament directors would do wood bat at youth level. Games would be boring and low scoring. Instead of seeing 20 HR in a tournament, there might be just 1. Too much like real baseball.
USA claims there is a wood shortage by their bat rule statement. I highly doubt that. Some of us have more maple on our floors than MLB teams have all season.
Too simple to regulate drop per age. (being sarcastic) People usually have 3 bats for their kids anyway, so it's not a money issue especially if you are playing travel ball.
Taking my young one to the cages tonight before it rains tomorrow. What are we swinging?
Marucci AP5
Chandler J42
Sambat 2K1
All wood, just difference balance points. |
| Hurricane |
Posted - 10/27/2017 : 13:54:14
I have always said wood would end all the mess. Safer and teams would have more feilds they could play on with wood. Cooperstown with wood would mean most teams would have 3 or less kids hit home runs with the bats they use now every kid on the team has a chance to hit one. I understand this might be the only time a kid can hit a homerun in his life, but I still say if you are trying to wear uniforms like the old school players etc might as well use wood. |
| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 10/27/2017 : 13:33:42
Crazyforbball; Yes, at 14u most places let you swing wood or metal. HOWEVER, coaches want you to swing metal if you can. When my son was 12u he was a giant, I asked the coach about getting a drop 5 you know to help him "transition". I was told a firm "you can get it, but I won't let him swing it in a game. We have the advantage that he is big and strong and can hit it over the fence every at bat. Having him swing a drop 5 might help him slightly next year but the team needs him to swing a drop 10 now."
RUSemiPro: The transition thing seems to be crap anyway. Rather than having all parents buy 4 different types of bats, which many can barely afford one, let's change the teams. If you are 13u and under 5'0 tall you go to this league, over and you go to this league. I am actually joking but it makes as much sense as the crazy bat nonsense. Some kids swing faster, harder, better. Those are called SPECIAL kids. Not everyone is special, and I wish people would quit trying to make everyone equal.
As for "rigged pool play draws"....dude...really? So the 643 Cougars, ECB Astros, and Team Elite Prime should all play each other in pool play, knock two of them down to silver and bronze so Team XYZ daddy ball can make it into the gold bracket? If you don't like the way the directors do pool play get out now, it only gets worse. In PG only ONE team out of the pool advances to bracket and they sprinkle in what they consider the top teams the same way, that way you don't have 2 top national teams knocking the other out. "Beating up on smaller weaker teams in pool play"....then why were those teams in the same tourney with the Elite Major team? Does anyone else find it odd that the only org that does truly separate AA from Major and makes you prove it is USSSA and they have little to no presence in GA after 12u?
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| Renegade44 |
Posted - 10/27/2017 : 11:54:09
"I'd like to see technology that if end caps are removed, the bats become useless and cannot be used again, or obvious to a blind person it's been modified. That would be a greater stride towards player safety more than a new stamp and a money grab. "
"Simple rule, any time a pitcher or fielder is struck and injured by a batted ball, the umpire immediately confiscates the bat and ball in said play, and are removed until testing can be done and certified legal and within tolerances. That would do 2 things, 1) protect other players from future risk but 2) hold liable any dad, coach or team that injures another player due to an illegal bat and/or ball."
Yell THAT^^^^ to the top of the mountain.
Personally I am sick and tired of bat rolling being excused as legal, and of shaving being able to be done without tamper proof endcaps in place. There is no excuse for tampering or altering the performance of your bat in any way, except by hitting it yourself for thousands of swings as intended.
I'd put money on an experienced coach can identify an illegal bat 99 times out of 100 based solely on the SOUND it makes when the ball is hit. Altered bats DO NOT SOUND like the factory model. Use your ears, they will tell you all you need to know......and then verify with your eyes (half swing, off balance distance, every players uses same bat,etc) But the sound is a dead giveaway!
And if you think BBCOR is the answer HAHAAAAhaha!. Tamper proof endcaps are needed. BBCOR bats are being messed with just the same, especially the metal alloy ones. But get the oldest cheapest thing you can find, because they last about 100 swings before exploding when shaved. Hint: don't waste them on practice swings in cage.
I'm not gonna tolerate the bat bs. Not at high school, not at Legion, and not at travel ball. When I hear/see it, its gonna get called out, .....and 9 times out of 10 the rats scurry half the bat rack to the parking lot before an official or director arrives. |
| bama21 |
Posted - 10/27/2017 : 11:12:44
Here are some statistics from 2013, 2 years after the introduction of BBCOR bats in 2011:
1.Home Run Data Points:
Home runs in 2013 per game are less than half they were at the peak in 1998 (.42 from 1.06). In fact, the average HR/G from 1975 to 2010 was .77 HR/G. 2011, 2012 and 2013 average .473–a 39% drop off in home runs.
2.Runs per game:
From a peak in 1998 of 7.12 runs per game to a low in 2013 to 5.27, run production per game dropped a full 25%. The last 3 years have seen 18% less runs than the average of the previous 35 years.
3.Batting Average:
Strike out percentages for players are not going up. Contact percentage is staying even. But players are no longer hitting base hits like they used to. Almost 20 points down on average.
4.Stolen Bases per Game:
With BA low and OBP down accordingly, we’ve seen few opportunities to steal bases per game. As a result, there have been 18% fewer bases stolen per game in the last three years then compared to the average of the 35 years previous.
You can easily see the BAT plays a major role, no matter how good the player is. I couldn't find recent data, although I'm sure it exists and I am also sure these numbers have probably increased because manufacturers will make better products over time.
Also, if it has nothing to do with the bat, why is there discussion about some bats being crappy. Everybody wants their kid to stand out and have every advantage possible, that's why you search and search for that "hot" bat. I like the wood bat only idea, then your hitting ability will truly shine and no one can say, "It was the bat". |
| RUSemiPro |
Posted - 10/27/2017 : 10:48:57
Yes and No.
Being the father of a smaller kid, yes they are at a big disadvantage in size. But, I stress to mine, if you want to compete and want it bad enough, work harder, train. I can't make you any bigger, god made you what you are, but you decide what you are going to be.
So the smaller kids that work hard, they won't hit 350' 400' bombs like these 13U man children out there but they should still be able to handle the bat and weight changes and compete and yes hit the occasional dinger.
However, the smaller kids that just want to show up or don't practice as hard, don't want it as much, yep they will absolutely struggle and 13, 14, 15U is were you see the attrition for them where they quit sports altogether or start up lacrosse.
Pedroia and Altuve, two of the hardest working players out there are small and prove it can be done if you are on the small side, you just have to out work everyone and want it more.
How bad does one want it?
I'm starting to fall in Punisher's camp - Becoming more of a fan of Wood. Need more wood bat tourneys at the younger levels, but be prepared your 14-8 game may now be a 2-1 game...
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
The smaller kids are actually the ones most affected by all of this. Flip side of the coin, they need all the help they can get. These bats are like swinging tree trunks for them. Always interesting to see when the sluggers actually have to swing the BBCOR and wood. The smaller ones had to persevere...less of a "learning curve"...like Punishers, I like wood. At 14 most can choose to hit with wood over BBCOR, correct?
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| RUSemiPro |
Posted - 10/27/2017 : 10:32:15
I think you are more in line with the field dimensions vs the bat.
TRUE 13U Major teams should be on 60/90 period. If they are that big, strong, fast and talented as most of them are. Maybe even some AAA+ teams as well.
but AA and AAA- maybe on 54/80, to aid with the transition. Puberty is different at these ages, and it is an awkward time people need to be real about things and continue to work on development until puberty is over and everyone is back in line.
Also, these Major/Elite teams do not need to be beating up on smaller weaker teams in rigged pool play draws, or trophy hunting or padding their records, or even playing them at all as I think that is where more of this may be occurring. People need to be real about their classification and stick within it.
Bottom line accidents are going to happen, prevent the ones we can, and hope and pray we've trained these boys on how to protect themselves.
quote:
Originally posted by TaxiMom
Not about sour grapes at all. My son had a CF8 -8 and actually hated it.....when it broke, got it replaced with a Zen, which we immediately sold because he didn't like it. He far prefers his Easton XL3. So, for me, this discussion has nothing to do with that.
While these bats might be legal, I'm saying that I have never been as scared for pitchers as I have been this fall, watching these big kids swinging these Zens. There's always an inherent risk in pitching, but for whatever reason, correct or incorrect, my perception is that the ball is flying off these bats much quicker than off other bats. Now, also understand that my son is on a high major team and my perception might be skewed - frankly, it's been opposing team pitchers that I've been afraid for. Our team is the one with the big kids swinging these bats. But I'm starting to think that 13U major teams need to be playing on 60/90 fields. Maybe let them continue swinging -5, but at least force us on the bigger fields, with more distance from the pitchers mound to the plate.
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| RUSemiPro |
Posted - 10/27/2017 : 10:24:06
100% correct Demarini stopped making the drop 5 Zen and has NO plans to do so. They have a crappy drop 5 voodoo. It will be exactly like the CF8 situation with limited inventory that I call perishable. It's not a matter of if it will break, but when it will break. The problem will self correct. Demarini is counting down the days, they have to be tired of the exposure for returns.
I predict the drop 5 market for all bat manufactures will be weak going forward. It will be a very limited market going forward, and why mass produce something so custom or limited to a small segment. To me a drop 5 literally is becoming a 13U only bat, no way they spend R&D money for that one segment especially when kids are changing dimensions etc. They will focus on Drop 10's, 8's and BBCOR.
So hold on to those Used Drop 5 zens, I predict they will go for big bucks on ebay just like the CF8's. Man I wish I stocked up on CF8's held them and resold them. Could have put my kid through college with the spike in value!
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
Last I heard Demarini was no longer making a -5 cf zen bat, so those kids must be using last year's model. While they are known for pop they are also known for breaking. Not sure many will go the distance of another whole spring and summer season. Especially with how hard they hit. Problem may self correct like the year everyone hit with cf 8's..till they all started breaking.
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| RUSemiPro |
Posted - 10/27/2017 : 10:15:15
Punishers,
Agree with you it's the batters not the bat. I will note the older Zens may be a little better than their competition, but these same kids hitting rockets will hit them with other bats or even wood. It is not as drastic as people are making it out to be. Hitters are being better trained and as a result the training is what I think we are seeing, not the bat as much in my opinion.
My son trains with wood sometimes and the other day with me doing front toss and him being extremely undersized for 12U 4' 5 and 76 lbs soaking wet, but has good technique, quick hands and some pop, he hit a couple with a 30 inch drop 3 maybe drop 4 LS pro stock wood bat, just as solid as any composite or aluminum and it came off plenty fast to scare me behind an L Screen. If you have good fundamentals, quick hands and square one up, it will fly. Is he going to use the wood in a game, not at 12u, but it helps prepare him for the transition and control the barrel through the hitting zone. Currently being of the smallest kids out there he swings a drop 8 right now, and hopefully before end of spring we start working in drop 5. While kids twice his size or more are still swinging drop 10, those kids and parents are in for a big surprise at 13U.
You mentioned it in another thread, if it didn't pass the BPF 1.15 it would have been pulled as well.
Until August of this year 13U kids could swing just about anything including drop 10's which was crazy, then Triple Crown and others said enough. So these 13 year olds were swinging drop 10 and drop 8 forever. Now that the rules are saying drop 5, all of a sudden, because some of these folks either can't get the Zen drop 5, don't want to pay for the zen drop 5, or don't want to buy it just for one year or in fear of new standard, they scream player safety, when it really is about if I don't have it, I don't want you to have it. I don't have a dog in the fight (this year), but I so call BS on this one.
I personally think the new USA bat standard is a joke. If you can swing a drop 8 swing a drop 8, if you can swing a drop 5 swing a drop 5, it doesn't matter what your age is. At some point you have to go BBCOR or wood, which is around drop 3, learn in the younger years so you are prepared when it really counts. This whole USA Bat "Wood Like" standard but with lower drops (lighter bats) in my mind defeats the purpose. It's a marketing ploy to feel good. So now that the bats are "safe" lets swing lighter weights? There should be a rule drop by age, that's it.
7U drop 12
8U drop 12/10
9U drop 10
10U drop 10
11U drop 10/8
12U drop 8
13U drop 5
14U and beyond drop 3, BBCOR or Wood
Instead of a new standard, swing the right size and weight and then bat commpanies should invest in tamper proof technology, where these bats cannot be rolled or shaved without ruining the bat or being obvious to an umpire or tournament director.
Everyone of us has seen it were there seems to be one or two bats on certain teams (you know the ones), that seem to be a little hotter and everyone uses. Same brand, Same model, but boy that one particular bat seems to be the one everyone on that team uses and perform better than the ones on our team. Maybe due to manufacturing variations, they got lucky and got a good one, more likely it got some help along the line from dad. I'd like to see technology that if end caps are removed, the bats become useless and cannot be used again, or obvious to a blind person it's been modified. That would be a greater stride towards player safety more than a new stamp and a money grab. My message to these folks spending big bucks to gain this edge, take that money instead and buy lessons for your kid, do it the right way, not the easy way.
In this case it's not the bat!
Before I get off my soapbox, I say a simple rule could fix some of this as well and can be implemented literally overnight. IF it is really about player safety, and I still call BS on that argument.
Simple rule, any time a pitcher or fielder is struck and injured by a batted ball, the umpire immediately confiscates the bat and ball in said play, and are removed until testing can be done and certified legal and within tolerances. That would do 2 things, 1) protect other players from future risk but 2) hold liable any dad, coach or team that injures another player due to an illegal bat and/or ball. If a kid is hurt, and the bat or ball falls out of spec, then an independent organization can open the bat, if it was tampered with the player and family are responsible and likely will be seeking legal aid, if it weren't tampered with and out of spec, well then the manufacturer(s) would be liable. It would never eliminate all the risk, but it would reduce it.
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
The retool and new 2018 cf zens just suck. The drop 5 zens are end-loaded and still allowed. A lot of kids swing them from 11-13u. As long as it's a drop 5 and demarini zens are notorious for being over their stated weight, a drop 5 is more like a drop 4 or 3, let them swing it. A simple solution is to regulated bat drops for age groups. I saw an 11u team swinging drop 12 bats Sunday and was amazed they were still striking out. It's still not the bat, but the batter.
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| Crazyforbball |
Posted - 10/27/2017 : 07:07:11
The smaller kids are actually the ones most affected by all of this. Flip side of the coin, they need all the help they can get. These bats are like swinging tree trunks for them. Always interesting to see when the sluggers actually have to swing the BBCOR and wood. The smaller ones had to persevere...less of a "learning curve"...like Punishers, I like wood. At 14 most can choose to hit with wood over BBCOR, correct? |
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