| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| oldschooldad |
Posted - 03/26/2010 : 11:00:35
I am curious if teams are having any arm trouble with their pitchers. I've seen quite a few games where teams are having one guy pitch into the 4th and some times 5th inning. I am not keeping pitch counts but the teams were not setting the batters down 1-2-3 so it seems like the pitch count would be high. If you figure 15-20 per inning, then it looks like some guys are throwing 80+ in one game! Way too many pitches for young arms.
Any thoughts?
|
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| bruins1 |
Posted - 03/31/2010 : 15:52:47
ItsJustLL --Ive got to agree with you on this one. Having three or four pitchers maxing out innings this early is not smart. Gotta think those pitchers are not all that effective in the later innings either. I'm not a coach but I can bet its easy to get caught up in the moment and want to keep your big guys out there. Still not the right move. Better answer it to develop your defense and teach pitchers how to throw ground balls and routine fly balls. Less pitches anyway. |
| oldschooldad |
Posted - 03/31/2010 : 15:09:13
any league or associations ever use pitch count to limit the use of pitchers? We all know LL uses this system but any one heard of it in travel ball? |
| ecbstix |
Posted - 03/31/2010 : 11:56:28
That is why some teams carry enough kids to keep them from coming off the mound and playing another pos. Some teams also use their pitchers as catchers, that has to be way to much throwing. |
| ItsjustLLBBall |
Posted - 03/31/2010 : 10:59:02
And coaches also forget to include the 5 pitches between each inning, which we know is some cases is more than that, then the 20-30 pitches he throws before coming in. So when your superstar 12 year old throws 80 pitches in a 5 inning game, he has actually thrown 130 pitches with all the warm ups not to mention the fact like MrBama said, he has either most likely played in the field for three other games and most likely will play in the field in upcoming games. This is the age pitchers are made, you need to develope pitchers that might not be your studs, that is of course if you are willing to take risks and not just have to win at all costs, and we all know that is very hard for some.
Scott C Ryder 12U RoadRunners |
| ecbstix |
Posted - 03/31/2010 : 10:55:26
Some teams use the "Get sent home on Saturday" approach! |
| mrbama31 |
Posted - 03/31/2010 : 09:58:51
quote:
Originally posted by ItsjustLLBBall
To use a pitcher on all three days of a tournament is crazy. Arms at that age were not meant to be stressed like that. Then to use a pitcher multiple times in one day for more than 20-30 pitches each time is even crazier. 12 year old arms were definitely not meant to be stressed like that. Then to use a pitcher 2 out of 3 days and multiple times in those days is crazy. Professional baseball players rarely pitch three days in a row, rule of thumb for relievers is two days on and a day off and sometimes 3 on and one off, but again, they are fully grown and have no growing left to do. A 12 year old, or younger for that matter, should not ever come close to his innings allowed limit in a 3 day tournament.
And to add to this playing a position in Saturdays games after pitching Friday is NOT a day off..You might can count it as 1/2 day off if it was not Catcher. |
| ItsjustLLBBall |
Posted - 03/30/2010 : 22:37:24
To use a pitcher on all three days of a tournament is crazy. Arms at that age were not meant to be stressed like that. Then to use a pitcher multiple times in one day for more than 20-30 pitches each time is even crazier. 12 year old arms were definitely not meant to be stressed like that. Then to use a pitcher 2 out of 3 days and multiple times in those days is crazy. Professional baseball players rarely pitch three days in a row, rule of thumb for relievers is two days on and a day off and sometimes 3 on and one off, but again, they are fully grown and have no growing left to do. A 12 year old, or younger for that matter, should not ever come close to his innings allowed limit in a 3 day tournament. |
| gasbag |
Posted - 03/30/2010 : 14:57:03
Well said GW ! |
| bballman |
Posted - 03/30/2010 : 14:45:22
quote:
Originally posted by Tribe
90 pitches with great mechanics is less dangerous than 20 pitches with poor mechanics.
Tribe, I wouldn't go that far, but I agree with everything else you said. Mechanics are very important. Improper mechanics over the long haul will cause injury faster. 90 pitches is a lot for the young players we are mostly talking about here - even with good mechanics. |
| Tribe |
Posted - 03/30/2010 : 14:22:42
Had to chime in on this one. Glad to say that after 8 years of baseball, we've never had a coach who wasn't protective of young arms. I have seen opposing pitchers overused on occasions, but even those instances are few and far between.
Having said that, allow me to reiterate that bad mechanics can be worse than high pitch counts in causing injury. Parents, get an objective evaluation of your pitcher's form and delivery. 90 pitches with great mechanics is less dangerous than 20 pitches with poor mechanics. |
| mrbama31 |
Posted - 03/29/2010 : 13:43:00
I don't believe coaches jeopardize kids intentionally..but I do believe that coaches can and do push the limits to the amount kids can endure in any given weekend. And for that kid that loves to pitch and his on a team that NEEDS him on the mound each weekend throwing his MAX innings combined with playing in the field of every game..it can and will catch up to them in 1 form or another. |
| baseballpapa |
Posted - 03/29/2010 : 12:45:31
I hear you about the Coaches but in defense of the game itself I think just like in anything else that there are not many Coaches that would jeopardize a kid for the sake of a win. Are there some out there, I am sure that they are and if you happen to be associated with a Coach that is not watching out for the best interests of your son then it is your responsibility as a parent to make sure he does and if that means saying SAYONARA or ADIOS then so be it. |
| mrbama31 |
Posted - 03/29/2010 : 12:18:49
quote:
Originally posted by DecaturDad
quote:
Originally posted by mrbama31
Decatur,
It sounds like your son is very talented..and you are on top of where he is at now..I would encourage you to be VERY conservative with his catching/pitching duties...He has many years of more important baseball ahead of him...PROTECT THAT ARM!!
mrbama,
His mom is a pediatrician, so she is VERY protective. That is also one reason we like the team we are on. We may loss a few games, but the coaches truely do have all the kid's best interests in mind.
Thats interesting...what is her take on "travel ball" and all the required throwing that is required from these young men in such a short period of time (fri,sat,sun)..I would be very interested in her
opinion vs the opionion of coaches and even vs a sports MD. |
| ecbstix |
Posted - 03/29/2010 : 12:07:18
Decatur Dad, my son is a catcher also. The last 2 years he has had the same problem. We solved it at the Chiropractor! This year he had to came out of a game in Fla, that week we went to the Chiro, she checked his shoulder strength and found the trouble was in his shoulder. His Humorous bone was out of alignment at the shoulder. She adjusted this and he has been pain free for 2 tourneys including catching 6 games in the SNIT! Now I don't believe everything they say they can do, but who knows it may save arm troubles later! |
| DecaturDad |
Posted - 03/29/2010 : 11:41:42
quote:
Originally posted by mrbama31
Decatur,
It sounds like your son is very talented..and you are on top of where he is at now..I would encourage you to be VERY conservative with his catching/pitching duties...He has many years of more important baseball ahead of him...PROTECT THAT ARM!!
mrbama,
His mom is a pediatrician, so she is VERY protective. That is also one reason we like the team we are on. We may loss a few games, but the coaches truely do have all the kid's best interests in mind.
|
| ljames |
Posted - 03/29/2010 : 11:35:37
I have stepped back from coaching and I'm now just a parent who keeps the book for our team. While keeping up with our pitch count I also keep up with the opposing pitchers. From my experience most pitchers at 13 are not as sharp once the get around the 50 pitch mark. I generally let our coaches know when they are hitting this point because we can start to be a little more patient and expect to see more balls thrown. While playing a game this weekend I was totally shocked inning after inning to see the other pitchers pitch count grow to a complete game 109. This is not including warm-ups and pick-off attempts. We were in disbelief to see him continue to take the mound inning after inning with the ability to lift his arm.
I think the common theme here is lets take a common sense approach to this as parents. If your son is on the mound you can also keep track of their pitch count. You don't have to leave it up to the coach. If the coach is not on the same page with what you feel is an acceptable pitch count or the team pitching depth causes your son to pitch a lot, YOU as a parent can make a decision to do whatever you feel at that point. It's your son not the coach's. If your child loves to play baseball give him the chance to play past 13/14. Who is going to remember a great YOUTH pitcher that never pitched past 13/14? |
| mrbama31 |
Posted - 03/29/2010 : 10:55:00
Decatur,
It sounds like your son is very talented..and you are on top of where he is at now..I would encourage you to be VERY conservative with his catching/pitching duties...He has many years of more important baseball ahead of him...PROTECT THAT ARM!!
quote:
Originally posted by DecaturDad
quote:
Originally posted by mrbama31
bballman,
The one that really gets me is the pitcher that plays catcher also. He catches and throws the ball back to the picther in a 6 inning game including warm ups 20+ times an inning. Plus warmups b4 the game he is throwing the ball around 150+ throws a game.
I am going through this right now. My son (10U) loves to catch. If he had his way, he would catch for an entire weekend. He has the stamina and leg stenghth to do it. He also pitches as needed. A few weeks ago, he started complaining about his elbow. We have had him seen by a specialist and even had his arm x-rayed. No real damage, but there seems to be a little tendonitis. No catching or pitching for him for the next few weeks. His coaches are very good at limiting usage, but he still managed to "over use" it between games, practices and just messing around. It killed me this weekend, not to be able to have him on the mound or behind the plate. He was even offering to the caoch that he was feeling fine, and to put him in. But all of us agreed that the best thing for him, long term, was no pitching or catching until after spring break. (He did play other positions, so he was happy, and could still help out his team.)
|
| DecaturDad |
Posted - 03/29/2010 : 10:02:06
quote:
Originally posted by mrbama31
bballman,
The one that really gets me is the pitcher that plays catcher also. He catches and throws the ball back to the picther in a 6 inning game including warm ups 20+ times an inning. Plus warmups b4 the game he is throwing the ball around 150+ throws a game.
I am going through this right now. My son (10U) loves to catch. If he had his way, he would catch for an entire weekend. He has the stamina and leg stenghth to do it. He also pitches as needed. A few weeks ago, he started complaining about his elbow. We have had him seen by a specialist and even had his arm x-rayed. No real damage, but there seems to be a little tendonitis. No catching or pitching for him for the next few weeks. His coaches are very good at limiting usage, but he still managed to "over use" it between games, practices and just messing around. It killed me this weekend, not to be able to have him on the mound or behind the plate. He was even offering to the caoch that he was feeling fine, and to put him in. But all of us agreed that the best thing for him, long term, was no pitching or catching until after spring break. (He did play other positions, so he was happy, and could still help out his team.)
|
| mom4baseball |
Posted - 03/28/2010 : 23:52:28
Just heard of an 11u major pitcher who played down in 11u AA today throwing over 105 in one game who also pitched some innings yesterday!!
Isn't that a little much???????? |
| BBmaniac |
Posted - 03/28/2010 : 22:50:26
My only comment here is to the staement about getting our kids to high school. My experience is that the coaching is better at the "serious" travel level than at most high schools. There are exception but less than you might think. We had a HS coach throw a kid the other night 139 pitches.....unbelievable! Things are changing...for most kids, the best exposure they are going to get will be playing in elite travel ball tourneys....That said, I also agree that it is of much greater importance to a parent to protect their player from over use. Keep in mind that very few players will admit to their coach that their arm is sore or hurting. They are afraid of getting "that look" if they say they can not go. I have always made a point to ask my own kid how his arm feels and then mention to a coach before a game if there is a concern.....There are coaches at every level that are far too focused on winning regardless of the consequences.....Not all but more than there should be. |
| mrbama31 |
Posted - 03/28/2010 : 21:55:33
bballman,
I couldn't agree with you more...You are right on with your thoughts..I pitched at both the college level and the minor league level. I have also coached travel ball at the highest level for the last 6 years with 2 sons involved. I speak from lots of exprience and I am very passionate about this issue of over use with our young VERY TALENTED players. In general most of the top pitchers are being over used when you consider how much they play in the field/position play on top of pitching 6+ innings in a weekend.
The one that really gets me is the pitcher that plays catcher also. He catches and throws the ball back to the picther in a 6 inning game including warm ups 20+ times an inning. Plus warmups b4 the game he is throwing the ball around 150+ throws a game.
My point is we want to play ALOT of baseball because IT DOES MAKE them better players...this is true...but we MUST BE CAREFUL with these childrens arms...without a good arm they are not very valuable at the next level whether they are a pitcher and or position player.
|
| bballman |
Posted - 03/28/2010 : 10:13:54
A couple of things jaguar. 1st of all, you can't always just leave it to the coaches. Maybe you can, because your kid is not pitching much, but as parents, we need to look out for our kids best interest. The coach doesn't always know, or he gets caught up in the game and is only thinking about strategy and forgets about the pitcher.
To be honest, it is the parent of the good pitcher that rely needs to worry about this. I have complained about this just watching other teams or hearing about it happen. Not just because we got beat. Couple of points on that. If the kid is good, you want him to last a long time in terms of playing into HS and possibly beyond. Keep letting him over pitch, that becomes more and more unlikely. Another point is those kids that are good are the ones that a coach will tend to rely on and overuse. Parents should be on top of this. It is YOUR son, not the coaches. Sure the coach cares, but not as much as you. It is the parents responsibility to be educated and take care of the health of their kid. Since my son was playing rec ball at 9, when my son was tired and had pitched enough, I was at the dugout telling the coach he was done.
He is in HS now. I have not had to do that. I have talked to the coaches and I know that they have a plan and keep a pitch count and wiill take him out when he reaches that point. Friday night, he went 6 innings, gave up 3 singles and no runs in his varsity game. After 6 innings, he was at 85 pitches with a 2-0 lead. Coaches took him out and let someone else close the game. Would it have been nice to see him get a complete game? Yep. Would it have ben easy to leave him in because he had the other teams number? Yes. I am still glad they took him out.
I'm not telling you to do anything more specific than be educated and keep an eye out for the best interest of your son. Don't leave it up to others - they do not have as much of an interest in your child as you do. |
| baseballpapa |
Posted - 03/28/2010 : 08:58:42
jaguars: I tend to disagree with your statement that most of the people that are complaining have just gotten beat by a good pitcher. I would bet that most that are complaining are the ones that have a child that has been through an arm injury. I went through with it the Chainsaw and it is not a very fun trip and if something could be done to minimize the risk of them getting hurt then we all should encourage that effort. I also hear what you are saying that we might be getting overprotective (if that is possible) but there is such a fine line here as to how much is enough and there are so many theories out there concerning pitching that contradict each other and this only makes a hard decision even harder. We must all keep as educated as we can and make the best decisions based on the child's safety. |
| jaguars18 |
Posted - 03/28/2010 : 08:19:21
it is just that when you use words like MUST and DONT you seem to be cictating what parents should and should not do. I let my coach handle my kid and he does not pitch much as it is. Most people who complain about pitchers pitching too much are teams who just got beat by a good pitcher |
| ec1 |
Posted - 03/27/2010 : 22:27:15
bballlman has good experience here. I am more concerned with the pitcher that goes 4-5 innings and then he is at 3rd/ss/of the next inning or game. You pitch and are a postion player you should be in the DH role. Tough pill to swallow but pitch your tourney innings and be done. quote:
Originally posted by bballman
Jaguar, more like parents with experience passing along advice to parents with less experience. Maybe you are one of those coaches or parents who want to win at all costs at any level? I don't know, your comment just seems very caustic.
I have done a lot of reading and research on youth arm care. My comments and I'm sure the other's comments are meant to educate so parents of younger kids won't make the same mistakes we have made. Take or leave it. Can't say you weren't given the information.
|
