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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Coach Cole |
Posted - 04/25/2017 : 11:29:57
When my son graduated in 2016, I wondered what to expect for playing time in college so I looked at what the 2015 HS grads with college commitments listed on PG did in their freshman 2016 year in college. To have a meaningful statistical group, I looked at 126 kids from several long standing, top travel teams in the Atlanta area. Here were the results for the 51 pitchers with college commitments, only 15 pitched more than 10 innings - those 15 had an average PG velo of 87 mph, the average stats for these 15 pitchers in college was 32 innings in 16 game appearances, 5.4 era, 1.75 k/bb ratio and 288 BAA-college hitters are better so expect your HS stats to not be as good. The spring 2016 college season stats were taken from D1 and D2 players. Of the 25 D1 pitchers, 5 were red shirted and 5 did not show up on 2016 or 2017 rosters. Of the 13 pitchers in D2, 3 were redshirted and 3 did not show up on 2016 or 2017 roster. One of the 3 D3 players did not show up on their 2016 or 2017 roster and the only NAIA pitcher I had in the data was red shirted. Of the 11 PG players listing JUCO/CC commitments, many did not show up on those school's rosters or stats if you could find good web site info.
On the 75 players on the hitting side, 18 kids had over 20 plate appearances with an average of 120 PAs and a BA of 260 (excludes JUCO/CC players). While data from the JUCOs/CCs was more difficult to research, 25 of the 75 PG HS hitters listing college commitments did not show up on the rosters of the colleges they committed; in most all cases, I could not find them on any other roster either.
Conclusion: Grades, injuries, competition, jobs, other distractions can impact playing or playing time as kids transition from HS to college. So choose wisely and keep your expectations reasonable. If you are a 17-18U player looking for a D2 school that is losing 7 college senior starters (better chance of playing!), email me at colejp@comcast.net. |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| bbsis |
Posted - 05/08/2017 : 00:28:42
Daddy ball is over! Know a daddy ball kid who went to a top D1 school, sat on the bench most of freshman year and is now at a no-name JUCO as a sophomore. |
| mar1dxt |
Posted - 05/05/2017 : 11:12:25
Great post and great perspective dgersh. At the High School in North Fulton my son plays at you have to fund raise as the school and school system pays for maybe 1/3 of the costs of the program. The coach has to be involved because you have to be raising money well advance of when the rosters for the teams are picked. Our coach is very upfront with parents. He will talk to parents about anything except playing time or playing position. On judging talent, he says the most difficult thing is evaluating the freshman and trying to project who can make the varsity in the future. He tells all the kids at tryouts that you need to have at least something that stands out..i.e. speed, hitting, arm strength, velocity, command of secondary pitches to make the JV team. The typical path is JV as a freshman and sophomore to varsity as a junior with a few kids making the varsity as sophomores. Very few sophomores who play two years on the JV team don't make the varsity as a junior. That said you do sophomores who don't get a lot of playing time on the JV team give up baseball after their sophomore year. |
| Crazyforbball |
Posted - 05/04/2017 : 20:16:58
Great advice dgersh. |
| bama21 |
Posted - 05/04/2017 : 19:09:13
The long and short of it.........To each his own |
| dgersh22 |
Posted - 05/04/2017 : 13:31:20
Don't know how this topic got from what coach Cole was showing was how hard it is to transition into college baseball for the student athlete from HS and how maybe some players with multiple offers when choosing a school to try and play at don't look at rosters and what possibly are their chances of playing as a freshmen, to bashing HS coaches for what some call their show of favoritism, lack of knowing talent and not having a baseball resume.
In regards to what Coach Cole mentioned about college baseball and having a son that plays DII and having coached a local team that had 15 players move on to the next level. I agree with much of what he said. It is hard for a player to go straight from HS to College and play especially at the higher levels. Many of the players who where upper echelon players on their respective teams find out that they are one of 50 now on their new team and many of the players have the same skill set. Many struggle with grades, injuries, burnout, coaching conflicts, personal problems,plus the many extra curricular activities that go on at College campuses that make them leave the game. Baseball is a part time job in the fall and pretty much a full time job in the spring with all of the travel plus the workload of school.
Many players also don't take a look at rosters and stats of teams when they have multiple offers to play at colleges they take the word of the coach that they will get an opportunity to compete for a spot on the field. Many times a coach will recruit a player looking into the future knowing he needs to fill a position in 2-3 years. Also he will recruit multiple players for the same position because he knows their is possibility that a player will quit or become ineligible or possibly if talented enough move to another position. This is what leads to the players transferring. My son got pretty lucky as a freshman, with the offers he had from DII & DIII schools he looked at rosters and asked the correct questions and also knowing what he liked and disliked about each school he was able to chose a place that he likes and also earned the ability to play. Granted he played 7 positions, and only made a handful of starts in his true position, he was still able to start over 35 games and finished with a great offensive year. Next year the coach has told him he will be moving him from the IF to the OF because of need but to make sure he continues to take a bunch of ground balls in the summer.
On to the HS coaching bashing. I agree that there may be some coaches out there that play favoritism but in my opinion it is few and far between. Having coached baseball and having a successful HS summer team for a smaller program with players from different HS I had the opportunity to interact with many coaches. Most of them have the same goals, and that is what is best for their program, to win, and ultimately they have the best intentions for all of their players. They fundraise because they have to, they charge dues because they have to. Most of them could care less about the concession stand, the diamond dolls, and other activities that take away from their ability to coach.
My wife and I were one of those parents that were heavily involved with my sons HS baseball program. My wife was in charge of the concession stand my sons junior and senior year, I did the announcing at home games my sons senior year. At no time did we interfere with the coach or any of the efforts of my son to play. My son went thru HS pretty much the traditional way, as a freshman he played on the fresh team, soph-JV, Junior year he was a spot starter on the varsity and brought in for defense, his senior year the coach told him pretty much that his role may be the same thing, but then he went out and earned the spot and didn't leave the field and became 1st team all-region and all-county. I encourage parents if they can to be involved with their sons program just don't interfere with the baseball activities.
In regards to the coaches and their ability to coach and judge talent compared to college coaches. For college coaches judging talent and coaching is their full time job. Coaches at most schools have at least 2-3 assistants plus grad assistants with many of them the same knowledge as the head coach this doesn't happen in HS. College coaches get to pick from the litter, HS coaches sometimes have to make do to fill out their roster. When it comes to coaching, colleges coaches are with their players 20 hours a week in the fall plus one-one training and spend more time with them during the season. They have the ability to teach and work on what needs to be worked on. HS coaches get 2 hours per day during the season on limited field space because of 3 teams, typically no time in the fall because players play more than one sport and then 1 month during the summer if your player decides it is important enough to show up. On top of that coaches have to try and teach each player differently because every player also has their own travel coach, and instructor that may not teach the same way. In college it is the coaches way or the highway.
I looked at the resumes of the HS coaches in my sons region and compared that to the coaches that are currently ranked in the top 10 of the DI rankings. Of the 10 coaches in the DI rankings all 10 of them played college baseball ranging from NAIA to DI, one only played 2 years JUCO, 2 played JUCO before moving on to a 4 year, only 3 of them played in the minors with none of them reaching the majors. The HS coaches in my sons region from what I could find on the bios of 6 teams 5 of the 6 played baseball in college, one of them had no bio but I believe played so that would make all 6. It ranged from D3 to D1, one of them had minor league time. The biggest differences I see between college and HS is that the college coaches have more time to become students of the game, they do baseball full time. They are surrounded by coaches that have the same pedigree, most of the time HS coaches do not.
I know I wrote a book, but to summarize college baseball is hard work for the student-athlete and a HUGE adjustment from HS. I believe that parents sometimes have blinders on when it comes to their sons talent level and like to blame it on the coaches. I know there are exceptions. Regardless let your son go out and play, enjoy himself, instill in him to work hard, most importantly to study and get good grades because college is expensive and they give more in academic scholarships than they do baseball. Only intervene when it is harming them physically or mentally. |
| bama21 |
Posted - 05/04/2017 : 10:57:39
It's not about salaries or coaching for that matter, it's about evaluating talent. There is no magic formula, but a college coaching staff will be evaluating thousands of prospects annually, a HS coach 50 to 75. I would argue that gives the college coaches a better understanding of judging talent, generally speaking. Like I said previously, judging talent is not easy and I am by no means putting down HS coaches, but also don't put to much weight in their opinions.
Also, I would like to know the percentages of HS coaches that actually played past HS, versus that of college coaches. While that percentage, whatever it is, certainly doesn't make you a great evaluator of talent, it could impact greatly your knowledge of the game and what it takes to play at the next level. |
| Diamond_dad |
Posted - 05/04/2017 : 10:39:45
quote:
Originally posted by jaguars18
Most HS coaches are coaching because pay is better than small or some big colleges. A teacher salary is more than assistant coach in college. Not always better college coaching
That's why a lot of colleges have showcases...to supplement the income of the assistant coaches. Some are actually looking for players and some just want to get paid. My two boys ended up with college scholarships because their travel coach set up private workouts for schools. |
| jaguars18 |
Posted - 05/04/2017 : 09:42:13
Most HS coaches are coaching because pay is better than small or some big colleges. A teacher salary is more than assistant coach in college. Not always better college coaching |
| Punishers |
Posted - 05/04/2017 : 07:59:20
Crappy is not the word for it. May get 25% at best if you are not a potential 1st round draft pick. What they do not tell you is that you are fixed for 3 years before entering the draft. Unlike basketball and football. You would think they would give more than 25% since players are being locked in for 3 years. |
| bama21 |
Posted - 05/03/2017 : 12:10:20
Also, do you really believe that the college kids that transfer make that decision on their own? The parents are still footing most of the bill as college baseball scholarships are crappy at best. NOT HAPPENING. |
| bama21 |
Posted - 05/03/2017 : 12:00:23
You are missing the whole premise of what prompted my initial response. This statement was made...."HA yea 15 u is when HS coaches break the news your career is over" .
Again, the point is, you shouldn't be taking everything a coach tells you about your talent as that's the end of the story, that is one person's opinion. My reference to college players was to emphasize that kids still transfer, even in college, and from my perspective it is no different than HS, except the college coach is probably better qualified to judge talent over a HS coach. I guarantee the parents are still involved in these decisions to transfer whether it be college(4 yr. programs) or HS. |
| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 05/03/2017 : 08:03:54
quote:
Originally posted by bama21
I hope everyone, I'm sure they do, realizes as your son gets older, you will have less and less say about decisions related to baseball.
The point I was trying to make is that you can't take what a coach tells you as the "gospel", that is his opinion. Also, while I'm sure some kids do change HS's for various reasons, there are way more college players that do it, so how do you explain that. I would bet that every college roster will have at least one transfer on it.
Of course the college kids transfer. There are Juco kids, i.e. the kids. that for a variety of reasons, went to a junior college first. Then there is the kid who went to a school where they didn't get to play, again for a variety of reasons, and they want to transfer so they can play.
I think that is a FAR different scenario than a high school kid not going to the school his parents house is zoned for. The college scenario are legal adults making their own decisions, the high school scenario are parents making that decision.
Apples and oranges people. |
| bama21 |
Posted - 05/02/2017 : 11:50:32
I hope everyone, I'm sure they do, realizes as your son gets older, you will have less and less say about decisions related to baseball.
The point I was trying to make is that you can't take what a coach tells you as the "gospel", that is his opinion. Also, while I'm sure some kids do change HS's for various reasons, there are way more college players that do it, so how do you explain that. I would bet that every college roster will have at least one transfer on it. |
| Critical Mass |
Posted - 05/02/2017 : 09:08:21
quote:
Originally posted by Coach Cole
Conclusion: Grades, injuries, competition, jobs, other distractions can impact playing or playing time as kids transition from HS to college. So choose wisely and keep your expectations reasonable. If you are a 17-18U player looking for a D2 school that is losing 7 college senior starters (better chance of playing!), email me at colejp@comcast.net.
Well said, mine experienced grades, injuries, distractions and got 30 innings playing hurt in D1. He saw his buddy quit this year before the sophomore season after fall evaluations..he didn't toe the rubber one time all freshman year (redshirt) and had come from THE most prestigious travel program in Atlanta. It's real and it's tough, get ready to work and have alot of luck on your side. Parents, you will have ZERO say in what goes on at the college level. |
| Hurricane |
Posted - 05/02/2017 : 08:11:21
Renegade44 appreciate the honesty. My son was in a similar situation that cost him a year of baseball and a year of wrestling. He decided to make the change and was the best decision he ever made. Coach at previous school was finally let go because of so many complaints and ethics issues, Karma is a B but usually comes back to get those coaches that think they are above the law, rules and ethics. |
| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 05/02/2017 : 07:56:25
quote:
Originally posted by TaxiMom
But just how important is HS baseball nowadays?
I wonder because I've been told by multiple sources that our varsity coach is a jerk and a terrible coach to boot. His way or the highway. Etc etc. But I can't imagine my son (currently 7th grade) being willing to permissive transfer to another school, leaving his friends, etc.
Would he be hurt, ultimately, playing for a private HS aged team during regular HS baseball season, if the HS coach really is as bad as everyone is saying he is? I've been told that the travel team is where most kids are "seen."
It gets complicated.
1. Yes, Travel is where most kids are "seen" but the first question is "What high school do you play for"....interesting conversation if your kid doesn't play for his high school.
2. There are high school coaches who are well known to be total tools and several colleges would understand if your kid didn't play for one of these guys...but you have no idea if your HC is one of those guys for sure.
3. My way or the highway is typical of head coaches (at high school, at college, at MiLB, at MLB), you really have just entered into their world. Adapt or die.
Some coaches really are known to be jerks but some are known to be "old school" and the colleges like those guys because they don't fluff it up. If the kid can't last more than 3 innings on the mound the coach says so. If the kid can't perform in a pressure situation, the coach is honest about that too. My best advice is to contact a senior of the program that is going to play in D1 or D2 college and ask their opinion of the coach.
My son had a coach that was the biggest jerk on the planet I couldn't believe how he talked to kids and to parents, there were multiple near brawls and the guy got kicked out of several games....and yet my kid loved to play for him. Yes, he talked some crazy trash but he knew his baseball and taught my son well, and that was all my kid cared about. Getting a successful players advice on what the coach is really like is FAR better than getting the impressions from the kids who were cut or sat the bench.
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| TaxiMom |
Posted - 05/01/2017 : 20:04:58
But just how important is HS baseball nowadays?
I wonder because I've been told by multiple sources that our varsity coach is a jerk and a terrible coach to boot. His way or the highway. Etc etc. But I can't imagine my son (currently 7th grade) being willing to permissive transfer to another school, leaving his friends, etc.
Would he be hurt, ultimately, playing for a private HS aged team during regular HS baseball season, if the HS coach really is as bad as everyone is saying he is? I've been told that the travel team is where most kids are "seen." |
| Renegade44 |
Posted - 05/01/2017 : 17:45:05
<Just curious does your son go to the school he is zoned for or do you do school choice or did you move to go to the school because of the coaches reputation?>
Complicated question. Lets call it pure random luck with a dash of academic prowess on top to even have an option.
Yes it is In-Zone. Yes it also required transfer approval. Yes transfer was motivated to escape a really bad nepotism situation and other items as described. Yes new program was researched to make sure not jumping from frying pan into fire.
Yes academics paved the way. Yes baseball opportunities meant a lot to my son. No he did not want to transfer, preferred to compete the issue away, but was advised by many that would never ever be possible.
There were no promises made. There were no expectations. There was just an acknowledgement that everything was open to pure competition. Newness to program dues did not have to be paid. You would get to compete, and be judged same as any other player competing against you. And all things similar skill wise, current program takes priority, you had to OUTcompete them not just equal them. Equaling was not enough.
Wonderful enjoyable year. Exceeded any expectations or hopes I had. Played at the desired position and start pitched in rotation. Looking forward to 2 more years, and still regret the 'lost' first year to the bs.
Edit: Same nonsense occurred at prior school in 2017 as did in 2016. Maybe worse. Just different names, but an uglier physical tune to it this time. |
| Hurricane |
Posted - 05/01/2017 : 15:24:38
quote:
Originally posted by Renegade44
High School ball is too often basically random nonsense. Both in the integrity of the coach and in the talent of the program any given year.
If you have the wrong coach who lacks integrity:
1.) You aren't playing in front of his midget son no matter what. Or his nephew. Or his daughters boyfriend, Or his daughters prom dream date.
2.) Senior-itus rules. Good luck Freshmen and Sophs
3.) A good booster check$ can circumvent #2. As well as weekend backyard beer drinking fests during offseason.
High School ball shouldn't be that way. There are some coaches out there that run their program with high integrity. And those coaches almost never have problems to deal with because the program expectations are high, and the competition for playing spots is real. Find that coach! It makes all the difference in your opinion of what High School ball is and what it should look like.
And yes this has been a wonderful year, free of bs, free of team infighting and fist fighting, free of boosterism, free of pampered midgets, free of nonsense.
Its all about the integrity of the Coach and flows downward from there.
"Find that coach! It makes all the difference in your opinion of what High School ball is and what it should look like."
Just curious does your son go to the school he is zoned for or do you do school choice or did you move to go to the school because of the coaches reputation? |
| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 05/01/2017 : 08:05:15
quote:
Originally posted by Cajunjeep
Politics are at every level. Little league, high school, college and pro ball. Don't kid yourself if you believe any different.
At the pro level, do you think the higher draft picks get more reps than the guys drafted lower in the minor leagues? What about the franchise players, they get preference as well. Do you think those guys get a pass on slumps more than the others?
What about in College ball when a new transfer comes in as a Junior? A coach will lean towards that player and it is his job to lose.
That being said, in my opinion, the cream will rise to the top if you are a good player politics have less impact on you. It is the fringe guys that the politics impact most.
Very true |
| Cajunjeep |
Posted - 04/28/2017 : 16:44:00
Politics are at every level. Little league, high school, college and pro ball. Don't kid yourself if you believe any different.
At the pro level, do you think the higher draft picks get more reps than the guys drafted lower in the minor leagues? What about the franchise players, they get preference as well. Do you think those guys get a pass on slumps more than the others?
What about in College ball when a new transfer comes in as a Junior? A coach will lean towards that player and it is his job to lose.
That being said, in my opinion, the cream will rise to the top if you are a good player politics have less impact on you. It is the fringe guys that the politics impact most.
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| NF1974 |
Posted - 04/28/2017 : 14:04:59
CaCo3Girl,
Those examples are right on. Managing and running the concession stand is a biggie and so is field maintenance. Both of those will get you a lot of brownie points.
I agree with you that this matters less at the larger schools with Top programs but most schools are not these.
Will it get an average kid a starting spot on a really good team-probably not. Will one kid who may not be quite as good as the other have an advantage if mom or dad runs the concession stand or is head of the dugout club- you betcha. |
| whits23 |
Posted - 04/28/2017 : 12:41:53
Here is my experience with high schools and maybe it is not the normal one.
High school coach cut a kid who's grandfather was funding the indoor hitting facility. Not even sure he knew who was paying for it but i did not matter and the facility did not get built that year needless to say.
If you were not a starter by your JR year no need to keep on team as let a younger try it..no reason to be loyal to older kids that is not their job.
IF you are a pitcher or Catcher then YOU are a P or Catcher. You are not a P and something or a Catcher And something. You have a position and you play it.
If your not a starter you better do well in relief or you went to back of the line and may not see the field again.
Coach did not EVER substitute once region play started His starting 9 was his starting 9 and regardless of score rarely did substitutes get in games. They did pinch hit or pinch run but that was about it.
We never joined paid or did any volunteer work except 1 game in the concession and that was it.My kid was treated fair and played varsity his freshman year. The HS was one of the best in state only losing to the state champ and both were nationally ranked FWIW..never figure how they rank HS teams nationally nor did i care.
I also was not huddled around the game changer at games arguing over who got a hit or error nor did i ever attend a parent meeting.
I was not playing my kid was. My son declined to play in June when asked to and it did not hurt him the next year.
So i would say Money or Politics did not ever come into play with my kid or anyone i saw. I do know people complained as they always do that their kid was in the wrong position or did not get a fair look or something but I will say this.
The job of being the head coach of a HS is the job to be the head coach. I do not want him to come to my job and talk to me and i do not go to his job and talk to him. However i did consider him part of the school system and if something affect my kids health or education i may get involved. I had to send in Dr Note from time to time regarding back to play clearance from injury.
It was a good experience for my son and i have no sour grapes or regrets and i felt the coach did a good job. I put more emphasis on how good a job his teachers did to prepare him for college than i did his HS coach preparing him for college. His future was not going to be in baseball at the professional level and i doubt most people on this board will have kids making a living doing it either. Let kids experience their HS experience as it belongs to them and its part of avoiding safe space syndrome LOL |
| teddy41 |
Posted - 04/28/2017 : 12:21:06
sounds like a lot of people got a reality check and want to blame everything but their kid who should not be blamed. Talent is talent no HS coach will lose his job due to playing kids who paid their way onto the field. What next the college didnt offer cause the HS or Travel coach did not promote him enough? geez |
| CaCO3Girl |
Posted - 04/28/2017 : 11:13:34
quote:
Originally posted by teddy41
If your going to claim politics the explan what politics are in HS?
Most HS coaches are removed from everything to do with boosters or cool people they just coach. Its the same crowd crying daddy ball that cry politics just a new word for them
Politics examples are:
-The freshman that has a brother on varsity gets playing time over the other freshman.
-The guy/gal who runs the concession stand, their kid has WAY more rope to hang himself than the rest of the players.
-The guy/gal who organized the fundraiser, his kid gets put in any and all games that they tell the coach there MIGHT be a college guy here to look at the kid.
-The people who show up for field maintenance day, usually those kids start in the first game. So does the kid who's family donated the new turf.
I still don't think long term the politics will have an effect for the better programs it is about the win and did you make it to State. But in the beginning, in the non-conference games, in the smaller schools where winning isn't as important, I do believe politics can have an effect. Just not sure that effect matters long term. |
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