| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| bmoser |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 19:44:12
"Slashing" is squaring to bunt to entice the infielders to charge in towards the hitter to field the bunt, then drawing back the bat and swinging away full force...fielder beware!
How do you guys feel about Coaches deploying this strategy? Is it age sensitive? Is so, what age should it be allowed?
Do you know which tourney promoters allow it? I heard its okay in USSSA at any age. Is that true? |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| BBall123 |
Posted - 10/10/2009 : 10:20:42
quote:
Originally posted by Alter-Ego
For 12U and under, let's all agree that it is probably not that safe due to the small infield, but after that, put a cup on and man up and play.
I would be more worried about hot shots down the line on a full swing than one from a half swing.
Don't turn baseball into Soccer.
AGREED ! |
| Alter-Ego |
Posted - 10/09/2009 : 22:35:44
For 12U and under, let's all agree that it is probably not that safe due to the small infield, but after that, put a cup on and man up and play.
I would be more worried about hot shots down the line on a full swing than one from a half swing.
Don't turn baseball into Soccer. |
| BBall123 |
Posted - 10/04/2009 : 11:13:47
Teaching a kid to charge to 3 feet of the batter ??? I have not seen that . Not saying it does not happen, if thats being taught thats just as wrong and just as dangerous as the slash.
Mid infeild depth or around the pitchers mound depth until the bunt is enacted is what I have seen. |
| a1prog |
Posted - 10/03/2009 : 20:12:18
as i noted in an earlier post on this subject the slash play is hard to execute (right batter, right runner, right count, right time, right pitcher). in 5 years of travel we did it once- unsuccessfully and never saw it from another team. maybe times have changed. but to properly execute this you have to be confident that the pitcher will throw a strike- on a fast ball that is middle or middle in. outer half doesnt work well because you lose power trying to go oppo. off speed should have too much movement and it throws timing into whack. plus, the baserunner has to be in the right spot as well.
i fully agree that this can be a safety issue at younger ages. but i also have to say that if you are teaching your kids to get to within 3 feet of the plate because you suspect a bunt is coming or you want them that close after someone squares then you are not teaching proper bunt coverage. i saw coaches do this in my day the next time i had a guy on first with speed i would go from 1b to 3b in the 10/11/12/13 age groups.
so my bottom line is this- teach them this play as one of the last or more advanced things you go thru. after they have mastered everything else. which is generally in college. |
| Alter-Ego |
Posted - 10/03/2009 : 08:03:08
First, most everyone that has defended the slash has agreed that it is not a good idea for the pre-54/80 age groups.
Secondly, the injury you are referencing has nothing to do with the question at hand. It happened to a P, which I mentioned earlier is much more susceptible to being hit that a corner player. It is absolutely tragic when it happens. We watched 2 pitchers last fall, back to back, get hit in the head with line drives in a 13U tournament. At least the corner player can have their glove in front of them. A pitcher can't. I would be in favor of having pitchers wear a "game face" mask for 12U and below because of their proximity to the plate upon finishing their throwing motion. |
| bball2008 |
Posted - 10/02/2009 : 20:18:09
Totally agree with bmoser, ecbbraves and BBall123. It's a silly tactic that has no place in the younger age groups where the emphasis should be on developing the right fundamentals, not goofy short swings that might work once in a blue moon. Let the boys play the game the way it's supposed to be played. You won't see any of the quality 10u, 11u, 12u, etc. teams implement it. |
| bmoser |
Posted - 10/02/2009 : 19:59:04
fyi
I e-mailed EVERY USSSA Board member asking them to consider banning slashing at the younger ages, and received ZERO response.
Just wanted you all to know that.
Like BBALL123 said, if any of you pro-slashers were there when Teams GA's pitcher got hit, your heightened awareness of safety would have changed your minds on this topic.
|
| teddy41 |
Posted - 10/02/2009 : 18:58:25
not making light of it but saw a 2nd baseman take a ground ball one hop of the ground and crushed his orbital socket, not sure how to prevent that. the kid hitting was about 1ft and 60lbs bigger than everyone else. Do we outlaw size of players? Cars? planes?
OF course it is cheap to do..DONT CHARGE BUNTS to within 3 feet of the hitter |
| BBall123 |
Posted - 10/02/2009 : 17:32:42
If you have ever seen a kid get hit in the face with a line drive, you would not allow it to be done on your team again.
Team Ga has a boy having surgery on his face and displaced eye socket today after being hit in the face by a line drive while pitching.
This was a tremendous shot and its something I will never forget, The kid laying on the mound motionless, blood EVERYWHERE , The boys on BOTH teams were crying,he laid there for close to 25 minutes until the ambulance arrived. the boys (and parents and coaches) that witnessed this will not soon forget it.
And winning a stinking ballgame Dang sure isnt worth that happening to any kid.
In the slash play the defender is even closer than the pitcher usually,
Coaches if you cant see the danger in this you really need to check yourselves and your motivation. IMHO |
| DecaturDad |
Posted - 10/02/2009 : 17:02:07
We played a couple of 9U teams this past summer that seemed to do it on a regular basis. We learned that they would not bunt. |
| Alter-Ego |
Posted - 10/02/2009 : 16:13:46
Gimmick plays are that bush league pickoff move where the 2b and SS dive like the pitcher had thrown the ball and hope the runner on 2b takes off.
Slashing is a strategy sometimes used to shorten a batter's swing and put the ball in play for a hit and run.
bmoser, as for the catchers getting hit in the head, I have seen more catchers getting hit in the helmet from a batter letting go of the bat on the backswing than ever with a slash.
All in all, the P has a much greater chance of getting hit with a ball than a 3b, or 1b on a slash. |
| ecbbraves |
Posted - 10/02/2009 : 14:53:36
As a 9u team this past season, we played 70 games in 9u and 10u and never saw it used at all. I can't say that I ever remember seeing it in any high school, college or pro games except for women's softball. Teach the kids proper technique in bunting and hitting and leave the gimmick plays for the sandlot. |
| bmoser |
Posted - 10/02/2009 : 13:16:15
RONICARD:
When the boys are younger, and have not seen a slash before....
and the hitter squares to bunt, the catcher naturally comes up out of his stance a bit and begins to lean forward so he can field it as quickly as possible. Then, when the hitter pulls the bat back and swings...WHACK! the bat hits the catcher in the back of the head! I've seen it happen. Safety first. |
| ronicard |
Posted - 10/02/2009 : 07:26:13
I could not agree less. It's only dangerous if you charge your 3rd baseman in or 1st basemen in on the pitch. If you want to run them in toward the batter while the ball is still in the pitcher's hand, then it is dangerous. If you keep them back, it's just another line drive or hard hit grounder.
If you don't like the possibility of a slash, field bunts with your pitcher & catcher and keep your corners back.
I don't use the slash but I certainly don't think it should be outlawed. |
| Alter-Ego |
Posted - 10/01/2009 : 12:52:12
I guess this is apparently becoming a more frequent phenomenon in the younger age groups now because I never saw it the last 7 or 8 years until we got to 13U. If it is being used a lot at 9, 10, or 11 frequently, then I would say that might be need for review, but if we are talking about eliminating it in the older (13 and older) then I would disagree.
I would echo BMOSER's comments that if you feel strongly about it, contact the different sanctioning bodies to make them put a rule in. |
| clg003 |
Posted - 10/01/2009 : 11:05:00
ECB your right both situations are dangerous and says tons about the coaches. But to be honest in my experience I have only seen one situation where the fielders were charging in to ridiculous levels without even knowing whether or not there is a bunt. My response to that situation as I was coaching third base was "Coach I am not bunting this kid and in fact he drives the ball hard down the third base line so you definitely want to have your kid back". That would be in roughly 300 games I've only seen it once over the past 4 years so I can’t say that it’s a problem or even a valid response. It actually seems kind of desperate to use something that virtually never happens as a counter point to something that I see happen in every tournament by a team or two (and those teams typically do it every game). If your point is that people slash in response to premature charging I would have to say that’s completely inaccurate. Slashing by in large is something that is practiced and used in games regardless of a team’s response.
And to the “finally someone gets it comment”... I guess you really don’t get it and probably never will. My Momma always taught me 2 wrongs don’t make a right and we are talking about the safety of kids here. The talk about an advantage or a disadvantage is insane when you’re weighing it against the safety of a child. This is not something that people are way off base about. Have you noticed that multiple sanctions do not allow it? Do you really feel like the games played under those sanctions are just missing something? I mean how many teams are out there saying we don’t play in that sanction because outlawing slashing just aint baseball. The point is to make the game as safe for the kids as possible without drastically altering the game and obviously this is a non-consequential part of the game or you wouldn’t see so many sanctions outlawing it. I’m mean why don’t we allow metal spikes in the young ages as well to get kids to stop blocking the bags. Or maybe even get rid of the must slide rule because how many games have we lost because our kids couldn’t do the Charlie Hustle at home plate and jar a kids shoulder and ball lose at the same time. Or how about the high and tight to get that no good kid to stop crowding the plate? I mean wow dude, WOW!
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| teddy41 |
Posted - 09/30/2009 : 16:56:00
Finally someone gets it..i guess soon someone will start a thread and say kids should not try to hit line drives and take a hat off of the pitcher |
| LeftyBat |
Posted - 09/30/2009 : 14:37:56
quote:
Originally posted by Topscout
Lets look at it in another way. In most situations, we ask our hitters to drive the ball through the infield when players are in normal positions. Therefore we don't percieve a need to draw in the defense in order for our batter to be successful.
When a batter slashes, he is trying to bring defenders into a less desirable position to field the ball in order to gain an advantage. If this were the only impact then it would simply be considered a strategy, but the strategy puts the third baseman at significant risk of injury. I believe that the risk is more important than the need to win and the play should be outlawed. Have your players be a man and just hit it past the fielders at normal depth.
One other example; when we have the bases loaded and 2 outs with a 3-2 count, we tell our runner on third to hold up some so he doesn't get hit with a line drive (the runners on first and second go full steam. If we aren't willing to put our player at risk, why would be put an opposing teams player at risk?
OK I guess I see the point that you think the coach of the team at the plate is trying to drive the infielders in, so as to create an advantage for the batter at the plate, and that it is unsafe for the fielders. What about the other side of the coin. When a defensive coach send the infielders charging toward the plate before the batter even squares to bunt, is he not putting his players at risk in order to create an advantage for his team? I see this all the time. In fact in some cases, they move them in before the play begins and then have them charge. Should this not work both ways? Like if the fielders charge the plate prematurely, lets just award the batter first base in order to protect the fielders.
Slashing is a response to fielders deciding there is not risk to committing to rush the plate in a bunting situation. To some extent it is an irresponsible response, but I suspect coaches do it because the other team is taking advantage of the situation.
Not advocating either side, just thought both sides need to be part of the debate. |
| Topscout |
Posted - 09/30/2009 : 13:38:19
Lets look at it in another way. In most situations, we ask our hitters to drive the ball through the infield when players are in normal positions. Therefore we don't percieve a need to draw in the defense in order for our batter to be successful.
When a batter slashes, he is trying to bring defenders into a less desirable position to field the ball in order to gain an advantage. If this were the only impact then it would simply be considered a strategy, but the strategy puts the third baseman at significant risk of injury. I believe that the risk is more important than the need to win and the play should be outlawed. Have your players be a man and just hit it past the fielders at normal depth.
One other example; when we have the bases loaded and 2 outs with a 3-2 count, we tell our runner on third to hold up some so he doesn't get hit with a line drive (the runners on first and second go full steam. If we aren't willing to put our player at risk, why would be put an opposing teams player at risk? |
| Alter-Ego |
Posted - 09/30/2009 : 11:30:51
I would say 12U and under. I think 13U, where the field is bigger and the players are more experienced, it could begin to be used. |
| bmoser |
Posted - 09/30/2009 : 10:40:01
Since there is a Coach in this area who teaches and deploys this dangerous practice at too young an age, I have written every USSSA Board Member (via e-mail) asking them to ban it for boys under 14.
I encourage you to do the same, if you agree.
I have also expressed my concern to our Coach, and he agrees. We played 12 USSSA tourneys in 2009, and will not likely play any in 2010 until this is changed.
We wrote our league asking them to make this change, and they did so within 1 week (after they had a chance to discuss as a group). Kudos to the Lanier Baseball League Board. GGBL already has this rule in place.
Some event promoters who are aligned with USSSA ban slashing by overlaying their "local" rules atop USSSA's. I've seen this done in Texas. Maybe we should also be looking to orgs like JB Athletics and Elite Sporting Events to implement no-slashing rules as well. Perhaps both orgs would care to respond so we all know where they stand?
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| Alter-Ego |
Posted - 09/30/2009 : 10:14:46
clg003,
I think most everyone has at some point agreed that it is a little unsafe at 11 and under, but we will have to agree to disagree on whether slashing is a useful part of the game or not. I believe it becomes useful to get the corner infielders to lean forward on their toes and give the batter an opportunity to hit a hard grounder in the hole between SS and 3B or 1b and 2b or over the head of the 3b or 1b. IT IS NEVER USED TO HIT THE BALL RIGHT AT A FIELDER. That would defeat the purpose.
The 13U Astros won an extra inning game at the Elite WS with a slash hit over the third baseman's head to score the runner from 3b.
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| clg003 |
Posted - 09/29/2009 : 16:05:07
I am amazed at the coaches who refuse to admit how dangerous this can be. I mean even after so many organizations outlaw it. It’s done for one reason and that’s to pull in the defenders to a helpless position. Instead of teaching their kids when to square properly and how to disguise the bunt they cry and whine and take the “I will show you” attitude to little kids. Yeah what better way to teach a kid than to hit him with a line drive smack dab in the middle of the forehead. Brilliant! The teams that do it have certain demeanors and I have even seen a coach get thrown out of a game because when the other coach complained about them doing it he said he was going to keep doing it until he hit one of the kids and the ump tossed him. To me that’s the mentality behind it. It’s that simple. I’m sure every one of the coaches that actually teaches their kids to do it also teaches their kids many more dirty aspects of the game. I’m sure they will deny this as well but we know where it comes from. I mean who has played travel ball for even one season and hasn’t come across one of those coaches. If I was a parent on a team that did that I would pull my kid off of the team immediately because that’s proof that the coach has placed winning above kids. |
| clubhousebaseball1 |
Posted - 09/29/2009 : 15:16:15
I think our coach is going to ONLY support those associations that have it banned. USTBA, I will relay the message. If enough of us do not support the USSSA and such that do allow it, one of two things will happen. They will get a lot of teams that are putting boys in danger or they will figure out in this economy they need to wise up. Wonder what the decision will be...... They forget we have the choice where to play. Our team for one has agreed our boys are not worth the chance for them to get hurt. If it was a method crucial to them getting to higher level baseball, I can assure our coaches teach it. |
| teddy41 |
Posted - 09/29/2009 : 14:31:03
In big boy baseball the players don't charge to within a foot of the batter yelling at them either. that seems like softball defense to me |
