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| Peanutsr |
Posted - 12/02/2011 : 07:16:17
Maybe I am just naive, but I didn't realize these companies were out there until I ran across one shopping for bats on the internet.
Found a company selling virtually all the new 2012 bats, with u trip stamps that have been shaved and rolled.
Of course the site offers the disclaimer that shaved bats are no longer legal for league play, but without testing you would not be able to tell the difference between a shaved bat and a legal bat.
This begs a couple questions:
1. If organizations are serious about children's safety, what measures are going to be taken to insure the bats being used in tournaments are legal?
2. Shouldn't it be illegal to increase a bat's bpf rating without changing the rating label on the bat?
3. If a child is injured by a batted ball, and it is discovered that the bat has been altered in order to increase it's bpf factor, are there legal consequences, and who bears the liability, the bat owners parent, the company that shaved the bat, the organization sponsoring the tournament, or all three.
If these organizations requiring the bpf standards don't institute some sort of system to test bats being used in tournaments, then the rule itself is a joke. |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Mad1 |
Posted - 12/11/2011 : 11:07:46
I didnt mean from the manufacturers perspective, I meant this is Usssa's attempt to make sure what we receive ,from the manufacturer, is on a level playing field. |
| in_the_know |
Posted - 12/10/2011 : 23:40:59
I don't agree that this is a way of leveling the playing field from the manufacturers perspective. Frankly, once the initial boon to sales from everyone complying with the new rules is over, I think this will hurt the manufacturers. Remember, it wasn't the manufacturers that started this, it was the NCAA/NFHS with the BBCOR rating, then USSSA with their restrictions.
I'm already seeing people buying bats for $99 - $150 since they are all relatively performing similarly. Before the restrictions, it was like the arms race; each manufacturer trying to leapfrog the other to get the highest performing, hottest bat. People were forking over $299 left and right to keep the hottest bat in their kid's hands. With the new restrictions, why spend $299 because you like the paint job. Now the performance difference between the $99 bat and the $299 bat is negligible and really making the justification to drop $300 and up difficult.
quote:
Originally posted by Mad1
Thats not the way I meant it, but i can see how it could be read that way. I think that this is just a way to level the playing field from the manufacturer , didnt mean players, which is what we all want. Let the talent dictate the outcome. It gives the umpires and Td's a fast way to inspect bats to see they were built to proper specs that usssa deems appropriate. By placing the stamps on the bat , the manufacturerers accept some form of liability and wont fudge as much on the ratings and at least all starts equal. I agree with you that the enforcement of this policy will be a nightmare, as far as which has been doctored.
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| Mad1 |
Posted - 12/10/2011 : 17:25:23
Thats not the way I meant it, but i can see how it could be read that way. I think that this is just a way to level the playing field from the manufacturer , didnt mean players, which is what we all want. Let the talent dictate the outcome. It gives the umpires and Td's a fast way to inspect bats to see they were built to proper specs that usssa deems appropriate. By placing the stamps on the bat , the manufacturerers accept some form of liability and wont fudge as much on the ratings and at least all starts equal. I agree with you that the enforcement of this policy will be a nightmare, as far as which has been doctored. |
| Peanutsr |
Posted - 12/10/2011 : 12:55:41
quote:
Originally posted by Mad1
I think the organizations are coming up with these rules to keep the honest honest.
Not quite sure I follow. Are you suggesting that without these new rules the honest would become dishonest? |
| Mad1 |
Posted - 12/10/2011 : 08:41:28
I think the organizations are coming up with these rules to keep the honest honest. No matter what the rules , there are always those that will try to get the advantage. Our 10u team is a small team made up of those " Stringbeans" as you refer to them, but as alot of teams find out, can hit with most anyone. No matter what the bat , we have a few small players that continuously crush the ball with legitimate un doctored bats. The fact is , that most of these bats after broke in will not make the 1.15 minimum in my opinion. I dont think they came up with the rules just for liability, but in response to participants wants. I think if it was for their liability, the rules would simply state a size only, i.e., 2 3/4 and swing what you bring. I also believe that if they stated that way, we would all still be there too, playing every weekend. |
| Peanutsr |
Posted - 12/09/2011 : 22:37:13
What it boils down to is, you have organizations that have instituted a new rule under the guise of "keeping the children safe".
The rule , as a matter of practicality, is unenforcable, and as someone mentioned earlier, insures that the people willing to cheat will have the advantage.
In reality, you have organizations that have been taking heat because new technology keeps improving the performance of equipment such that the safety of the kids(and therefore the liability of the organizations)is brought into question.
Their answer is to institute this rule that , again, is basically unenforceble, then wash their hands of the whole mess. When a kid gets hurt by an 80lb. string bean swinging a juiced bat they will be able to say, " well it had a USSSA bpf. 1.15 stamp on it."
I know Bubba reads many of these threads. Since USSSA seems to be the leader(at least in this area)as far as instituting the new bat requirements, I sure would like to here how his organization plans to enforce this new rule.
The silence from any of these organizations is deafening. |
| rippit |
Posted - 12/09/2011 : 20:38:25
Preach on brother!!! I'm with you. Some if these folks doth protest too much.
quote:
Originally posted by excoach12
Ya know. It's funny how the hypocrites come out here and take an opposite view of someones post simply to be a contrarian.
Don't get me wrong, opposing views are welcome and thats how discussions are held, but, those who immediately start bringing up every bit of minutiae that could happen to poo-poo someones point are ridiculous.
Everyone who commented on my point of retrieving the bat at home plate are the same people who, when their son is holding an ice pack to his eye waiting for the ambulance, will start yelling about a doctored bat and threatening a lawsuit.
I should have been more specific: When my son is on the pitching mound (not just any player in the field) and after he has completed releasing the baseball and has assumed the proper pitcher fielding stance and the batter (who is of such a weight, height, build, etc of the type that would most unlikely hit a screaming, 120 mph line drive straight at the pitchers head) hits such an out-of-what-a-reasonable-person-would-consider-to-be-ordinary-for-that-batters-type line drive straight back at the pitcher and the pitcher is injured beyond a normal youth sports minor injury that we typically see at every tournament then, after checking on the health of my son, I would retrieve the bat and not steal it or pack it away or wrestle it away from another coach or parent or umpire or anyone else who might claim ownership of the bat and I would request strongly that the umpire get the TD to the field to inspect said bat. If any parent, coach or anyone else claiming ownership of said bat vehemently refused to allow the TD or umpire or other qualified person "in charge" to inspect said bat and tried his/her darndest to not allow inspection of said bat then I would use that as a tacit confession that there was something wrong with the offending implement and I am going to assume the party guilty of possessing and/or using an illegal bat. Most tournament rules state that equipment will be inspected for compliance so I would then request that the umpire and/or TD would then hold onto the bat so I can take multiple pictures of the bat in an attempt to have evidence of what bat was actually at the game in question and then, upon the legal filing of an incident report with the police authorities that have jurisdiction over the location of the incident and the filing of a complaint with the correct court system, a subpoena for the offending instrument would be released and such evidence would be properly inspected by those who have the means to do so and would swear a deposition to the same so that, in court, I could sue those I mentioned in my first post.
Now. Everyone start saying how there is no way to guarantee the bat presented for inspection is the same one that was used in the game even though pix were taken. I am sure the offending parent would spend hours at home with a new, undoctored bat recreating every nick and scratch to create an exact opposite.
Point being: Use a shaved bat, cause a serious injury and a legal poop storm is heading your way in one fashion or another. You can be sure that parent won't use it again.
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| excoach12 |
Posted - 12/09/2011 : 15:15:04
Ya know. It's funny how the hypocrites come out here and take an opposite view of someones post simply to be a contrarian.
Don't get me wrong, opposing views are welcome and thats how discussions are held, but, those who immediately start bringing up every bit of minutiae that could happen to poo-poo someones point are ridiculous.
Everyone who commented on my point of retrieving the bat at home plate are the same people who, when their son is holding an ice pack to his eye waiting for the ambulance, will start yelling about a doctored bat and threatening a lawsuit.
I should have been more specific: When my son is on the pitching mound (not just any player in the field) and after he has completed releasing the baseball and has assumed the proper pitcher fielding stance and the batter (who is of such a weight, height, build, etc of the type that would most unlikely hit a screaming, 120 mph line drive straight at the pitchers head) hits such an out-of-what-a-reasonable-person-would-consider-to-be-ordinary-for-that-batters-type line drive straight back at the pitcher and the pitcher is injured beyond a normal youth sports minor injury that we typically see at every tournament then, after checking on the health of my son, I would retrieve the bat and not steal it or pack it away or wrestle it away from another coach or parent or umpire or anyone else who might claim ownership of the bat and I would request strongly that the umpire get the TD to the field to inspect said bat. If any parent, coach or anyone else claiming ownership of said bat vehemently refused to allow the TD or umpire or other qualified person "in charge" to inspect said bat and tried his/her darndest to not allow inspection of said bat then I would use that as a tacit confession that there was something wrong with the offending implement and I am going to assume the party guilty of possessing and/or using an illegal bat. Most tournament rules state that equipment will be inspected for compliance so I would then request that the umpire and/or TD would then hold onto the bat so I can take multiple pictures of the bat in an attempt to have evidence of what bat was actually at the game in question and then, upon the legal filing of an incident report with the police authorities that have jurisdiction over the location of the incident and the filing of a complaint with the correct court system, a subpoena for the offending instrument would be released and such evidence would be properly inspected by those who have the means to do so and would swear a deposition to the same so that, in court, I could sue those I mentioned in my first post.
Now. Everyone start saying how there is no way to guarantee the bat presented for inspection is the same one that was used in the game even though pix were taken. I am sure the offending parent would spend hours at home with a new, undoctored bat recreating every nick and scratch to create an exact opposite.
Point being: Use a shaved bat, cause a serious injury and a legal poop storm is heading your way in one fashion or another. You can be sure that parent won't use it again. |
| neverquit |
Posted - 12/08/2011 : 22:20:02
Its just a difficult situation. How to prove without problems? Say the batter just hit the ball hard and little Johnny wasnt paying attention again. Your going to steal a bat from them and take it where? Are you going to give them a replacement bat in the mean time to keep you from being sued? What if it is found that nothing is wrong with the bat but little Johnny is playing up in a level he doesnt have the skill to be playing. Should we call DEFAC on the parent? At AAA/Majors the kids are drilled to hit the ball hard. Is the third or first playing too far in? Better think this out b4 you go Rambo. You may get hit harder trying to get the bat and in the courts than the kid not paying attention. From the beginnings of baseball someone always get hit. I pray it doesnt happen due to a shaved illegal bat. But I would like to see a parent try to take a bat from someone who knows their above board. WWE lol |
| Spartan4 |
Posted - 12/06/2011 : 20:09:36
DecaturDad, I wasn't specifically talking about me...I have no issue with the wood bats and I feel it would sort out the talented kids even earlier. I was asking the question that with all the moms and dads who try to change a rule that has been around for 100 years because their kid got hurt....Case in point the older kids are taught to always slide straight to the bag and not perform a takeout slide, but some organizations have no rule regarding this...So the SS who has played all year expecting the runner to slide direct to the bag gets clobbered....Rules for baseball should be universal, not depending on which organization is handing out the trophies...JMO...There are too many rules as it is, wood would make this MUCH easier!!! My nephew is a smaller kid and he might struggle a bit, but he loves to use the wood bats in the cage and I think it would teach kids to rely on their skills instead of hot equipment daddy put in their hands so they can hit bombs and tell everyone what a big hitter he is!!!
About the red bat, it is a SUPER hot bat...but some of the big huge Bandits kids swung them and didn't hit the ball further than one or two kids a year younger in 11U who weigh 80.....I just don't think that is a coincidence.... |
| Peanutsr |
Posted - 12/06/2011 : 11:31:48
The bat manufacturers have no incentive to stop their bats from being tampered with. If people see kids hitting the ball harder and farther with xyz bat, then that is the bat that parents are going to buy for their kids. |
| bball2008 |
Posted - 12/06/2011 : 10:56:06
Why can't the manufacturers design bats where if the end cap is removed the bat becomes permanently dead? That would solve the shaving issues.
Also saw a lot of big 11u and 12u kids on elite level teams at the elite 32 and nybc using a specific red small barrel drop 10 bat last season that hit checkswing or handle-shots 250 plus feet. According to a rep from the mfg, those bats are designed to help the kid with a lower skill level not the better players that have hit puberty early and are close to or already turned 13. You could make a case that even those bats could be dangerous to pitchers even if unaltered when used by kids that they were not designed for. |
| 22202 |
Posted - 12/06/2011 : 10:09:40
Talking about this with a fellow baseball dad he reminded me that Nascar uses a ultrasonic gauge to read tubing thickness in the racecars at tech inspection. They take readings all over the chassis to make sure no one is using thin walled tubing. I looked up one of these gauges and found this company pretty easily. http://www.phase2plus.com/ultrasonicthicknessgauges/utg-2800.htm I found out these gauges are $795 and are VERY accurate for aluminum. The composite bats are a little harder because of the porous material BUT with multiple readings you should be able to gauge if the bat has been modified. Since WE (baseball parents) are having to buy these stamped bats I see no reason why a sanctioned TD's shouldn't be required to have these at their tournaments. If the TD hosts 100 teams in a season that would be a cost of $7.95/team to buy one. Take 2 entries of $5 gate fees from each team of that 100 and you have more than covered your $7.95, not to mention the charge for a protest fee that could be applied toward that and now the gauge hasn't cost a dime. There is no reason to have this rule with the bats if it is not going to be enforced. Seems to be a pretty cheap way to stop this kind of cheating. |
| DecaturDad |
Posted - 12/06/2011 : 09:14:25
quote:
Originally posted by Spartan4
Only problem with that is when little johnny gets hit by a broken bat ??
Spartan4, If your son is facing a powerful batter, would you prefer a wood bat or a legal stamped bat? - I am just wondering what bat you would see as more dangerous? (I am asking in all seriousness. Not to start anything.) |
| JABA |
Posted - 12/06/2011 : 09:07:55
There are always going to be kids that hit the ball harder than other kids, I have seen 300 foot shots at the 12U level with a metal bat that was legal. But the assumption right away is that the bat is a "cheater" bat, it's really not fair to the kid who is playing by the rules. Composite bats are legal in USSSA next year if they have the stamp (even though they are exactly the same as last year), and the small barrel bats which I think are the most dangerous ones out there, are legal in most cases with no changes at all. I'm sure there is some bat shaving out there, but maybe I'm just naive to think it is very minimal. I would be fine going with just wood, I know my son loves the feel and sound hitting with a wood bat and he uses one for practice all the time. But until the organizations out there change their standards, and they would all have to do it to be consistent, I have no problem with kids using the best legal bats they can use. |
| HITANDRUN |
Posted - 12/06/2011 : 06:52:46
quote:
Originally posted by Marinersfan
all this talk leads me to one conclusion --at 13U and up wood bats should be mandatory. Not much doctoring going on there.
I agree with Marinerfan, at 13 and up I wish they would go to wood. I know some will argue wood is dangerous but I rather see my son pitching against a kid using a wood bat than a cheater bat or just aluminum. Until they make all the bats go to BBCOR standards. |
| Spartan4 |
Posted - 12/06/2011 : 00:02:35
quote:
Originally posted by Marinersfan
all this talk leads me to one conclusion --at 13U and up wood bats should be mandatory. Not much doctoring going on there. If one breaks in two and superballs come flying out of the barrel I'd worry about that at the time it happens. Until them I'm pretty confident their won't be much cheating. Plus, if your team can produce in the wood bat tourneys then that's worth something. Heck if nothing else, it will limit the amount of times I have to read someone brag about their kid's 350 foot shot with a juiced bat.
Only problem with that is when little johnny gets hit by a broken bat ?? |
| Spartan4 |
Posted - 12/05/2011 : 23:51:09
quote:
Originally posted by nastycurve
playing devils advocate here... Dont you think a kid who can swing hard enough to generate enough power to cuase serious damage with a line drive could do so whether or not the bat was altered? I mean getting hit by a car at 80 miles an hour will cause death, will getting hit at 60 cause you to die but be a little be less dead?
I dont agree with altering bats, if you need to cheat to win youre a chump. However, altered bats are like corked bats, they make balls that would go 250 go 270, not make balls that would go 150 go 250.
I don't know about distances with baseballs but I don't think it would be crazy to say with a 44 or 47cor softball you can gain 40-50 feet....That is a lot, but it isn't the distance that is so incredible it is the exit speed off the bat. We play in one league that we can use whatever bats we want and some of the sticks those guys have are scary hot...The pitcher releases the ball and backpedals pretty fast!! |
| nastycurve |
Posted - 12/05/2011 : 22:58:57
playing devils advocate here... Dont you think a kid who can swing hard enough to generate enough power to cuase serious damage with a line drive could do so whether or not the bat was altered? I mean getting hit by a car at 80 miles an hour will cause death, will getting hit at 60 cause you to die but be a little be less dead?
I dont agree with altering bats, if you need to cheat to win youre a chump. However, altered bats are like corked bats, they make balls that would go 250 go 270, not make balls that would go 150 go 250. |
| Marinersfan |
Posted - 12/05/2011 : 14:45:25
all this talk leads me to one conclusion --at 13U and up wood bats should be mandatory. Not much doctoring going on there. If one breaks in two and superballs come flying out of the barrel I'd worry about that at the time it happens. Until them I'm pretty confident their won't be much cheating. Plus, if your team can produce in the wood bat tourneys then that's worth something. Heck if nothing else, it will limit the amount of times I have to read someone brag about their kid's 350 foot shot with a juiced bat. |
| in_the_know |
Posted - 12/05/2011 : 11:41:12
Not so, most shaving bats will also end load them. Shave out an ounce to give the walls more trampoline, and add the ounce shaved back into the end of the bat, increasing the swing weight, better distributing the weight for a power hitter. You'll see no variance in total weight.
I've made golf clubs for nearly 30 years. Swing weight and weight distribution is the same principal applied here.
quote:
Originally posted by Peanutsr
A simple check would be to have an accurate scale. While there may be some slight varience from the manufacturer, a bat that has been shaved will weigh less.
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| Mad1 |
Posted - 12/05/2011 : 11:33:16
If you read up on these testin machines they say any dent or ding can cause a varience in the reading causing it to fail. Most bats Ive seen used in tournaments have some sort of dent in them , which according to what some say, would make them all fail. Alot of kids on a team will gravitate to a bat they see having success with other players. We had a bat last year that after certain players had success, the other players wanted to use. It seemed to give them an air of confidence at the plate. By the end of the season it was beat up bad and had to be taken out of service. Any bat after a while is gonna fail a test, just from use. All the stickers are doing, is keeping the honest, honest. |
| Peanutsr |
Posted - 12/05/2011 : 09:48:25
A simple check would be to have an accurate scale. While there may be some slight varience from the manufacturer, a bat that has been shaved will weigh less. |
| DecaturDad |
Posted - 12/05/2011 : 09:40:17
There should at least be a way for an opposing team to challenge a bat. Similar to any other protest. You put up your money, if the bat is OK, you forfit the protest fee. The challenge is how do they test the bat? If the tournaments have the testing equipment, it could happen there.
Also, if a kid gets hit, (And I truely hope that never happens) what makes you think the parent would give up the bat? Let's assume the bat was not altered. Why would a parent give you the bat knowing you may sue them? With all the law suits today, you could get an "expert" to say the bat had more bounce then it should even if the bat was never alterted. Think about it: I think all of us would want to say we would hand over the bat, saying that is the right thing to do. But if you thought it through, would you?
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| in_the_know |
Posted - 12/05/2011 : 09:17:46
First of all, I completely agree with your sentiment.
That said, how and what do you intend to do? If your kid is hit by a batted ball, which can happen to any and every kid on the field on every pitch, there isn't really any indication that the bat is doctored. You say you'll retrieve the bat. What does that mean? Do you intend to confiscate it (basically theft by taking)? Are you planning to pop off the end cap (destruction of property) to inspect it? I know that none of my boy's bats are doctored, but if you think I'm going to willingly hand over one of my bats to you for a few weeks because your kid happened to catch a line drive off the body, good luck. I don't have a stable of bats lying around, so I can't just let every coach who wants to take our bat do so.
All the new rules around stamping bats does is put and/or change the high limits on what the product manufacturers send out their doors. Before these changes, people were still doctoring their bats, they were just starting with something that was hotter to begin with.
The real problem is that there is no way to police and test bats at the places that they are being used, so there is no way to determine ahead of time that people are playing within the rules. Until that is possible, people without integrity will look for ways to circumvent the rules to get their kid an advantage, even at the expense of the safety of others.
These new stamps are just like gun laws. The only restrictions are placed on those willing to follow the law. If you're going to cheat, you will do so with or without any new restrictions in place.
quote:
Originally posted by excoach12
Fair warning to every team out there: If my son is hit by a batted ball the first thing I'm doing as a coach after checking on my son is go to home plate and retrieve the bat.
If it is determined that bat has been altered I will sue your team, the coaches, the park you play out of, the parents of the child who hit the ball and the tournament organization running the tourney.
If people refuse to be responsible on their own then we all should use the courts to make it happen.
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