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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| campo |
Posted - 10/24/2011 : 09:55:08
If you had the power to make changes in the travel ball circuit for kids U-8 to U-13, what would it be?
I would limit the number of games per season to 50.
I would put more emphasis on practicing fundamentals.
I would limit the pitches per game.
I would limit the number of teams allowed to play on per overlapping period of time.
I would not allow a pitcher to pitch more than once per day.
I would institute a safe guard against back to back days pitching based on number of pitches thrown the day before.
I would educate coaches/parents more on stressing the importance of "the basics of the game" as well as the health of the player's arm.
Travel ball is great for kids and I see the benefit from playing. But, there is a downside to the way it is run at times. I would be curious as to opinions of others. Do you agree with me on the changes I would like to see? Do you have your own thoughts of changes you would like to see? |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| RACGOFAR |
Posted - 11/03/2011 : 14:11:23
Interesting topic and interesting comments. Two things that I think everybody has overlooked is that baseball is a game that you can only get better at by playing games and by playing consistently against a superior opponent. Its such a mental game that practice alone is not enough to move you to the next level. If you want to get better you have to play and you have to be pushed. The average rec season is about 15 games. If you are a good rec player, you will play spring, all-stars, and fall ball and maybe get in 40 or so games.
That's a lot of games, but you have no control over the ability of the opponent, so travel gives you the opportunity to play against better teams. I would rather have my team play Kirksey's and Simon's rather than play a weaker opponent that I know we are going to run rule. Its easy to look for cupcake tourneys to enter and pad your mantle with trophies. Its much harder to balance out your schedule to play against opponents that will press your boys to compete harder and get better.
Travel is and should be about playing a lot (of games and innings) and playing against the best competition you can find for your team. There is a reason the MLB has 7 levels of competition and its the same reason we have it in Travel-- players, both physically and mentally, develop at different rates. Its better to be playing every game on a good AA or AAA team than to only play on saturdays in Major/Elite. You are not going to magically improve watching your teammates from the dugout.
Put your team together, see what you've got, find opponents that you can compete against and will push your players to get better, and play, play, play.
What I see as the biggest problem in travel is coaches who develop or put together a team beyond the actual ability level of their son. If you are going to coach, put together a team where your son will be in the middle of the talent pool. You want him to have teammates that will push him to compete. I would change that in travel, by polling coaches about other coaches' sons and then restrict the ability of a coach to only coach at their son's evaluated level. My .02. |
| 22202 |
Posted - 11/03/2011 : 13:38:55
quote:
Originally posted by bballman
But if all these A, AA and low AAA players played rec, wouldn't they be playing with players in the same talent level they themselves are? I keep hearing the argument that the reason kids don't play rec is because their kids are too good for the kids in rec. I just think that if only the elite level players played travel ball, all those low AAA, AA and A players would be playing together in rec. There wouldn't be the issue of playing with lower talent, because they would all be back in rec playing together.
The problem is that everyone thinks their kid is too good to play in rec whether they are or not. I guess they think AA travel ball is more prestigous than rec.
What if one of these Elite players got seriously injured and required rehab and it slows their game down. Arm injury, broken bone whatever. That Elite player is now NOT on the same level as the other Elite players, so should they go back to rec until they are 100% and get their game back? Just makes it sound like if you're not Elite then there's no place for you on a travel team. |
| ramman999 |
Posted - 11/03/2011 : 13:22:34
quote:
Originally posted by bballman
But if all these A, AA and low AAA players played rec, wouldn't they be playing with players in the same talent level they themselves are? I keep hearing the argument that the reason kids don't play rec is because their kids are too good for the kids in rec. I just think that if only the elite level players played travel ball, all those low AAA, AA and A players would be playing together in rec. There wouldn't be the issue of playing with lower talent, because they would all be back in rec playing together.
This would make sense if there was a concerted effort to develop in rec leagues, not have Saturday afternoons be some social event, and let the politics dictate who's team you play on - right now, this isn't the case in most leagues - what development can be had with an hour of practice a week and a 12 game schedule?
I'll use this example - for 9 - 11yo kid :
so and so's son dominates at a rec level. SS, 1st P, C - bats clean up - best player on team
same kid dominates at AA level - SS, 2nd P, C - bats top 1/2 of lineup - 1st/2nd best player on team
same kid is competitive at AAA level - 2B, backup SS, 3rd -5th pitcher, back up C - bats top 1/2 of lineup - top 5 player on team
same kid is competitive at Major level - primary outfield, backup infield, 6th pitcher - bats 2nd 1/2 of lineup - 7th to 9th best player on team
Kid doesn't have an ego problem, and doesn't care where he bats/plays, just wants to play ball - Where should he play?
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| jacjacatk |
Posted - 11/03/2011 : 12:00:57
quote:
Originally posted by bballmanThe problem is that everyone thinks their kid is too good to play in rec whether they are or not. I guess they think AA travel ball is more prestigous than rec.
There's also the fact that a rec season around here (Forsyth Co) is maybe a dozen games, and fewer practices. Without lower level travel, there's no real outlet for the good players who just want to play more. |
| Outtahere |
Posted - 11/03/2011 : 11:43:10
bballman - Could not agree more with your last statement. Some parents need to take off the blinders and be honest about their sons level of play. See how your son sizes up to the others especially at practices. Does he even want to be there or is it you that wants him to be there? He may be happier being the star on a rec ball team. However, some AA ball is better than rec and you see teams that start at AA and then are coached up and move up and on. Others that continually stay in AA ball year after year and get bumped to A may need to rethink the whole travel idea. |
| bballman |
Posted - 11/03/2011 : 10:25:59
But if all these A, AA and low AAA players played rec, wouldn't they be playing with players in the same talent level they themselves are? I keep hearing the argument that the reason kids don't play rec is because their kids are too good for the kids in rec. I just think that if only the elite level players played travel ball, all those low AAA, AA and A players would be playing together in rec. There wouldn't be the issue of playing with lower talent, because they would all be back in rec playing together.
The problem is that everyone thinks their kid is too good to play in rec whether they are or not. I guess they think AA travel ball is more prestigous than rec. |
| ramman999 |
Posted - 11/03/2011 : 08:20:05
quote:
Originally posted by DecaturDad
And those who say rec ball should have a place for the better players; when we did play rec ball, every year, my son was one of the top draft picks. that meant that most of his team mates were closer to the last picks. (Our park tryed to keep the teams even.) That meant that there were only a few good kids on the team. The coach had to spend all his time with those kids working on the basics like how to get in front on a ground ball. Not much time for the more talented kids.
I am a firm believer in that if rec leagues partnered with travel, it would help both organizations, and keep kids in the leagues. - In the areas that do this (California comes to mind), they have success.
Having said that, I realize that this is not feasible here for two reasons:
1. Travel associations (USSSA, Nations, Triple Crown, etc) are in it to make money - it's in their best interest to have teams at every level of play, and they are more than happy to accommodate families sick of rec league drama, and the talent drop off. The more disgruntled families, the more AA teams start up, the more money to be made.
2. Diverse skill levels within one team class. When I was coaching rec, I could see my better players skills suffer because I had to coach to the weaker players.The drop off in skill from player #1 to player #5 was big - from #5 to #11 was huge.. My son was trying to play both travel and rec at the same time and that was a huge struggle because it's tough to "turn off" your arm because the kid on the other side of ball can't catch. Playing both lasted 1 fall.
If rec/LL programs adapted to an A, AA, AAA format, this might work and keep players in league, but I believe politics would limit the success - We all know that league president or board officers kid that doesn't make the team/play the field on merit. Playing AAA level would be a popularity contest, much like all stars or challenge teams have become for some organizations.. |
| Spartan4 |
Posted - 11/02/2011 : 13:55:24
There is a problem that need addressing....I can't stand the idea of rec ball so I don't think that is a real alternative, maybe league ball could be?? We have all seen kids who play AA for a couple years and they develop into something special, also now some of our boys are in puberty and some aren't we might see kids who were special at 11 have a bad year or two in between. I don't think the answer is throw AA ball away but I do believe the umpiring associations should send the best umpires to the major tourneys, but that is just me being sick and tired of watching umpires who have ZERO idea of what the rules are. I'm sure it is just as bad or worse at the AA levels....I also have a real issue with the term "human element" when apologizing for pitiful officiating. If little Johnny screws up too much he gets cut or benched but if Umpire A who is garbage is continually the problem(there are guys out there that we know are gonna be tough way before the game even starts) then nothing happens to him or the association who allows him to continue. We have had some really good umpires lately and I hope that trend continues for next spring!! |
| DecaturDad |
Posted - 11/02/2011 : 09:39:06
quote:
Originally posted by Spartan4
........The difference is that every daddy who has a boy doesn't play travel baseball in that town. If there were enough quality umpires out there that every boy could play travel ball then I would agree...But IMO(and it is only my opinion) the boys who put tons of time and countless hours of hard work deserve to compete without umpires who are not capable of knowing the rules.....
So how are boys going to get to the higher levels without travel ball? My son moved from rec to travel at 9u. At the time, this was a AA team that was just getting thier feet wet. We had a lot of fun and learned a lot. Now at 12u, the team has improved a lot. Some of the original players have moved on and others joined. For my son personally, he has gone from a good rec ball player to a major level ball player. If he had not had the chance to try travel at a lower level, he would have moved on to another sport out of frustration.
While I agree that the umpiring situation needs to be addressed, I don't think that limiting travel to just top players is the answer.
And those who say rec ball should have a place for the better players; when we did play rec ball, every year, my son was one of the top draft picks. that meant that most of his team mates were closer to the last picks. (Our park tryed to keep the teams even.) That meant that there were only a few good kids on the team. The coach had to spend all his time with those kids working on the basics like how to get in front on a ground ball. Not much time for the more talented kids. |
| Spartan4 |
Posted - 11/02/2011 : 02:37:54
I'll get slammed for this but whatever.....I agree 1000% that the umpires are HORRIBLE about our area....We played a tourney in Lincoln Alabama not too long ago and I couldn't believe how good the umpires were....The difference is that every daddy who has a boy doesn't play travel baseball in that town. If there were enough quality umpires out there that every boy could play travel ball then I would agree...But IMO(and it is only my opinion) the boys who put tons of time and countless hours of hard work deserve to compete without umpires who are not capable of knowing the rules.....It is absolutely ridiculous to have men officiating the game who admit to having no clue what the rules are.....Even worse to have an umpire make a rule up as he goes...It happens, last season at EC I had an NUA umpire tell me there are EXACTLY 491....491 and only 491 ways to commit a balk....Half of our team heard him say this....It is ignorant for people to say this garbage...And these are the peopl who make the decisions while our boys play!!! Maybe it is just the officiating that is watered down?? |
| BROOKSTEAM |
Posted - 11/01/2011 : 17:35:42
Some very interesting thoughts above. To me all of the above seems to fall on parental decisions/discretion rather than implementing more rules and requirements. When I have spoken to tournament directors their belief is if a parent or coach is willing to pitch a kid too much, or let a kid sit on the bench, then it really should not be their job to interfere with a boy/team parent/coach.
As a parent you can decide of the costs are too high, take your son off a team if he is not playing enough or pitching too much, ask questions about number of games, travel etc. To me travel ball should exist at all levels if that is what the parents and kids want to do, and if they later change their mind the rec parks will be there when they want to come back.
**The one exception here is the umpiring. And I am not talking about being a good or lousy "judgement" umpire either way is fine and most are usually consistent. What totally gets to me is when these umpires, who make a decent amount for working these tournaments, simply do not know the rules. I have been and continue to be in utter disbelief at some of the things that umpires have said regarding the rules of baseball where they are factually incorrect. Umpires at all tournament levels should be required to pass a rules test and be given follow up testing each season. |
| rippit |
Posted - 10/28/2011 : 13:21:13
quote:
Originally posted by 22202
I would like to see portable mounds either banned or it be mandated that the ones being used have to be the correct size for the kids using them i.e. when they step towards home they don't fall off the mound AND tournament directors be forced to make the grounds crew properly make the transition from dirt to mound smooth with no lip for the ball to "jump" off of into the pitchers face. Also at the very least start out with a level batters box and not have a 12 inch hole on either side of the plate. I'm sure I'll think of more.
THANK YOU!! The portable mounds are atrocious and dangerous. Get the big, round ones that mimic a dirt mound. Takes 10 men to move one, but whatever.
The holes in the batters box are ridiculous. Seen kids at bat that looked like they had no feet and umpires who don't adjust accordingly. Can't hit a pitch over your head. I know it normally would have been at the shoulders if the kid wasn't standing in an 8 inch hole.
Gate fees: It's entirely possible that some city parks are sending people out to collect gate fees and that money really doesn't go to the TD, but I can't swear by it. If the city is doing that, shame on them especially if they are charging the TD for the use of the field(s). If the only way the city makes money is from the gate fees, then the TD needs to man up or risk losing business. Tell the city you'll pay $X in gate fees depending on how many teams are in the tourney and then build that into the entry fee. NO MORE SURPRISE FEES!! |
| Outtahere |
Posted - 10/28/2011 : 11:47:50
I agree gasbag but I think if your son is with a good quality coach/group of coaches who runs a solid practice at least 2 times a week you should not have to have private lessons so much. Maybe a pitching lesson or a lesson here or there to tweak something. If your coach/coaches just stand around then what are you paying for right? |
| in_the_know |
Posted - 10/28/2011 : 10:50:03
Umpires!!!!
Some standardized method for reviewing and giving critique of how umpires are doing. I know that this is a flammable topic, and that usually the coach on the losing side will shift some of the blame on the umps, but often it's a legitimate point.
We can all walk through ECB on a given Saturday and point to the half-dozen umps that consistently suck. Either ego and wanting to be the center of attention, not knowing the rules or just not having a consistent zone. I guarantee that all of us would likely say the same thing about the same half-dozen umps, so it isn't by chance that we feel this way. When you roll up to the field to see the coin toss and groan when you see Umpire X working the plate, then that guy should be drummed out or better trained.
Today, there is no mechanism for improving the level of officiating or lodging legitimate concerns of consistency to see them resolved to any degree. Basically, as the talent gets watered down due to growth, so does the level of officiating. The difference is that there doesn't seem to be any degree of hierachy (Major, AAA, AA, etc) at the travel ball level. There is in pro-ball, but certainly not at our level. |
| Mad1 |
Posted - 10/28/2011 : 09:28:54
We ran into the small mounds at the usssa Fall State. The kids were stepping two feet off the front onto a flat surface. Our kids adjusted OK , but it was ackward and luckily no balls off the lip into the pitcher. I too would like to see these disappear. |
| 22202 |
Posted - 10/28/2011 : 08:30:30
I would like to see portable mounds either banned or it be mandated that the ones being used have to be the correct size for the kids using them i.e. when they step towards home they don't fall off the mound AND tournament directors be forced to make the grounds crew properly make the transition from dirt to mound smooth with no lip for the ball to "jump" off of into the pitchers face. Also at the very least start out with a level batters box and not have a 12 inch hole on either side of the plate. I'm sure I'll think of more. |
| gasbag |
Posted - 10/27/2011 : 11:52:15
I for one would like to see the costs associated with travel ball go down....between private lessons, team fees/dues, hotels, meals you get nailed at the parks with gate fees....not sure how to reduce any of these but if I had a magic wand, this is where I'd start. I'm going to have to take a second mortgage out on the house to cover this season ! As the sports pundits on TV say...."C'mon Man" !!!! |
| HITANDRUN |
Posted - 10/27/2011 : 09:11:12
quote:
[i]
About there kids performance level - I see the dad coaches with talented sons dropping out of coaching early so to give there Sons the independance and skills he needs to succeed now on his own then can hopefuly again in future years .
I don't see that. I think good coaches will continue to coach if they love coaching son on the team or not. I see some coaches dropping out early because they can't teach at the next level, son or no son on the team. I see dad coaches with talented sons continuing to coach if they are good enough to keep teaching the team the game at the higher level. The good coaches will continue to get good players whether they have a son on their team or not. If they play daddy ball or don't know the skill level of their own son (they are probably not considered good coaches) they will lose players.
When I think about the best or most talented players in travel baseball. I think the majority never had dad coaching at all or once it got to kid pitch. I have also seen some great coaches with a below average kid on the team having to turn players away because parents thought so highly of their coaching skills, and we have all seen the opposite of this too.
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| jongamefan |
Posted - 10/26/2011 : 13:06:59
quote:
Originally posted by 2playersmom
quote:
Originally posted by coachdan06
CAMPO : my 2 cents is that the dads need to be out of the dugout and off the field once high school year ages begin for travel
never turns out good - even if fairness is given to everyone . all the decisions about coaches sons will be talked about an criticised over and over .
then your on a team that turns over an starts over every year
I have to agree Dan , and what my sons even say on their own is if the teenage players are good enough then they don't need their Dad to be the coach anymore
Not many of mid-teens want their Dads to be the coach anyway hehe
MOM: you got that right , my sons would cringe at the idea of my being their coach .
Its not because I would be ignorant just that they are old enough to embrace the appearance of being independent not dependent on Dad
There definite are good Dad coaches around but too many times you run into the ones that are there for SON and we've seen it goes way up into the high teens if not controled .
Usually those teams turn over the roster substantially every season so take a cue from that if looking at a Dad cached team .
About there kids performance level - I see the dad coaches with talented sons dropping out of coaching early so to give there Sons the independance and skills he needs to succeed now on his own then can hopefuly again in future years . |
| ramman999 |
Posted - 10/26/2011 : 10:37:57
I like the idea of certification for coaches, no different than you see in youth hockey - you must rate a certain level to be able to coach at that level - for instance, a "majors" certification would be different than a "AA" certification..
Hitandrun said it best - coaching is an art.. All things considered, it still comes down to a coaches integrity, personality and makeup - all the certification and legislation doesn't mean jack if they play politics, play only for wins, use talented kids rather than develop talent within kids..
I can recall years ago when my oldest was still playing rec ball in Florida the league sending out coaching surveys after the season ended to rate the coaches and their staff. The survey went towards their selection as a coach the following year.. Bad coaches did not continue to coach, while good ones did... Seems easy enough to do in LL and rec leagues, getting it done on the travel circuit might prove difficult.
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| HITANDRUN |
Posted - 10/26/2011 : 07:47:34
coaching is an art. I say this knowing I am not a "great" coach. I am not sure how I feel about a course or certification for coaches. I think great coaches are hard to find and even working beside some of the greatest coaches isn't going to make you a great coach. I "do" like the idea of performance reviews for umpires and coaches as long as parks and leagues use those. Some great coaches never played the game some have, some have kids playing some don't. It's a tough combination between developing players and still winning games. An online course isn't going to make anyone a better coach I don't think. A lot of coaching is demeanor, organization skills, motivating players and keeping players engaged in practice.
If you look at good players that stay with a team or coach that usually means that coach did a good job in the players and parents eyes.
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| coachdoug |
Posted - 10/25/2011 : 23:53:37
quote:
Originally posted by Steel-Will
As a parent, I'd like to wave my magic wand and there'd be an organization that certifies Coaches.
Coaches would go through and complete a training program under the guidance and tutelage of the organization and upon successful completion would be able to use the organizations designation as an entry level, associate level, seasoned level, and expert level coach having undergone appropriate training and internship/mentorship to be a CERTIFIED youth baseball coach/manager.
This would not be dissimilar to the Certified Cisco Network Professional certification program where a course of study with a career path to the top level of certification could be followed.
Note that this training would not be mandatory for every coach to be eligible to coach a youth travelball team. However, holders of the certification would be sought after coaches / programs to participate in and would give parents some level of assurance that the coach knows a minimum amount about youth baseball coaching. The certification would also attest to his philosophy of development and how to achieve it. Also, that the coach believes in an adherence to pitch counts and other safety strategies that many parents want and season coaches value as mentioned above.
This really is a fantasy!!!
I do not know anything about the group, but I'm pretty sure this is the outfit that came through our park recently:
http://www.nays.org/coaches/
Probably not at the level of detail anyone would want to see...
Doug |
| Spartan4 |
Posted - 10/25/2011 : 20:53:49
I wish being an umpire required more certification....Or maybe performance reviews? They aren't getting any better the older our boys get!! |
| MAPSTRE |
Posted - 10/25/2011 : 16:09:07
Comming from coaching in softball for 6 years, ASA requires coaches to take an online course to be a certified coach. That would be a great addition for organizations such as USSSA to adopt. |
| ramman999 |
Posted - 10/25/2011 : 15:07:32
quote:
Originally posted by campo
Ramman,
That is my point. I have seen some great travel teams over the years. These coaches understood it was about development of these kids for tomorrow. Not today. They played to win, but not at the expense of the player's health.
But, there is a high percentage of coaches/parents that only see today. Arm injuries show up after the fact. I read an interesting article in which a guy asked another about how many stud pitchers from when he was younger were still pitching at 18. The answer was none.
See, unfortunately you get the same in Rec ball - sometimes worse, even with pitch counts...
We've thrown 12 kids this fall over 20 games.. Obviously we have some that get more work than others, but the 50 pitch limit works... we've won more than we've lost, everyone is getting mound time, and I honestly feel we can throw any of 6 or 7 kids in a championship game and win, and hopefully that number gets to 9 by the time spring starts.
[quote]Originally posted by Steel-Will
As a parent, I'd like to wave my magic wand and there'd be an organization that certifies Coaches. [quote]
I LOVE this one - AAA or Major coaches required to be certified... Dads and all - maybe then maybe I'll stop feeling insulted just for being a coach AND a dad.. 
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