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SpeedKills
106 Posts |
 Posted - 04/28/2010 : 08:23:28
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I am so confused. My twelve year old son has played travel ball since he was eight years old and has been instructed for years to hit the top half of the baseball. The coach of his travel team now is telling him to his the bottom half of the ball so that he will not hit hard ground balls. My son is having a difficult time understanding why he is being told to do this. It is against everything he has been taught to this point. Any thoughts from others would be appreciated. He is very strong for a 12 year old. My idea is that when he hits ground balls that have a high bounced on the infield , he is cutting off his swing or falling back a little on contact. Not the fact that he is hitting the top half of the ball.
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Shut Out
512 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2010 : 09:03:01
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| i have never heard a coach tell a kid to try not to hit hard ground balls. sounds like either bad instruction or miscommunication. |
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mrbama31
252 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2010 : 09:31:53
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Ideally a hitter wants to hit the center half of the ball. If he is a strong kid with lots of pop and you are playing...say at Cooperstown with 200 ft fences as a coach I would probably want him focusing on the bottom half of the ball..LOL...I will tell kids to focus on top half according to situations or bottom half..For example a fast runner at 3rd and 1 out. Hitter up is not a big power guy...tight game...infield normal depth...I am going to tell my hitter to concentrate on top half of the ball to stay out of a pop up situation... when a ground ball out scores the run.
I think top half vs bottom half has to do with situations and the type of hitter (power vs contact/speed) he is or needs to be in that particular situation. |
Edited by - mrbama31 on 04/28/2010 09:41:44 |
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TAZ980002
831 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2010 : 09:40:14
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| I always tell mine to "cut the ball in half", meaning hit line drives. A little under and he hits a hard fly, a little on top and he hits a hard grounder. I would also be looking at his swing plane. |
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bluecup
49 Posts |
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billbclk
164 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2010 : 10:45:06
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| I can't think of anybody who can hit half the ball (top or bottom) "on purpose". Just tell you boy to hit the ball hard. I think the intent is to get batters to focus in on the ball, keep your head still, etc. |
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MadSkills
128 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2010 : 11:37:36
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| Actually, I like inner half! lol |
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gasbag
281 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2010 : 12:25:37
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L U D I C R O U S !!!!
I'm not sure pro's could hit a Specific area of a ball. Just the physics of this comment do not make sense ? If a smooth round bat hits a smooth round ball ( absent any deflection by both ), then you have one tangential point of contact between the two. Also, you can't compare it to golf where the ball is dimpled and stationary being hit by a club that has grooves in it.
The important issue is the plane of the swing and the other elements of a proper swing to impact the flight pattern of the ball. Miss hitting it square, and the tangential point of contact will make the ball go up or down. I'd work on honing the elements and mechanics of a proper swing vs. teaching a lad to "try" and hit the top or bottom of a baseball. I could be wrong, but I believe athletes would get frustrated with that approach ( top or bottom half of the ball ). |
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gabandit
25 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2010 : 12:30:46
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| MadSkills has it right... for years the philosophy was top half. This originated from an interview with Ted Williams when he was asked why he hit so many sinking line drives, he replied "I hit the top half of the ball". In reality, in order to build a proper swing path to the ball, the focus should ALWAYS be on the inside half. Stay inside the ball, all the rest is irrelevant... |
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bluecup
49 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2010 : 15:27:37
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Agreed.
Looking at it another way:
If the ball is coming in a downward plane (pitcher's hand/release point plus mound height), and you swing downward, how big is the intersection point? And, why would you want to hit ground balls when that's pretty much exactly what the pitcher is trying to get you to do? Line drives are the ideal result, and rising line drives are great too.
Ideally, you should swing on a slightly upward slope, matching the plane of the pitch, to insure that your bat is in the hitting zone the longest period of time. See:
http://www.bftgu.com/baseball-instruction-school/rotational-hitting/rotational-hitting/
Also, see Ted Williams' The Science of Hitting (Ted specifically saying you should swing slightly UP--not down):
http://tinyurl.com/2chrj3g
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MadSkills
128 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2010 : 16:56:11
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bluecup,
I've been involved with two different travel teams in the past two seasons and have seen two different styles of hitting. The first was linear mechanics where they were taught to swing down at the ball to create backspin. The other was rotation mechanics where you would swing slightly upward along the plane of the ball.
Now, I do know several well known hitting coaches that teach linear mechanics but the science guy in me tell me differently. I'd be curious to hear others input on this as well.
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sward
369 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2010 : 00:36:13
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I will say this...
If a coach is correcting a kid whose hands drop behind the body and lift upward through contact, then bottom half makes some sense.
I worked a private clinic with Ken G Sr and he took a bucket lid and placed it 20 ft in front of the hitter. He asked the hitter to throw his barrel at the lid. He got the kid starting down and to the ball in order to flaten the swing plane and create backspin. This is very similar to hitting the bottom half while exaggerating a downward "feel" to correct....hands dropping down behind the body and then lifting through the plane of the ball...or the typical drop and lift. |
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sward
369 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2010 : 00:45:38
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I had a kid who hit over .390 as a junior in a 5A Gwinnett school by teaching the "feeling" of swinging down/to the ball and looking to hit bottom half. General's leadoff from 2007.
Bottom/inside half hitting with the right swing plane works. |
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bluecup
49 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2010 : 09:15:31
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I agree that if it's a drill to correct a swing flaw, maybe that makes sense...
But, many coaches and instructors don't teach what real hitters actually do. Mike Epstein, who played for Ted Williams, noticed that a while back and started writing about this:
http://www.mikeepsteinhitting.com/Tips38Info/HittingArticles/tabid/64/Default.aspx?udt_534_param_detail=176
I think you'd be hard pressed to find a pro today who actually swings down on the ball (other than, perhaps, Ichiro when he's trying to slap a ball--but other times even Ichiro has a traditional swing). If you're incredibly fast and totally lack any power (Otis Nixon?), maybe a ground ball is your best way of getting on base, but for most players rotational hitting is the way to go. Again, pitchers are trying to get you to hit ground balls for a reason...
Take a look at Albert Pujols' swing, for example:
http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Clients/SampleFlipbooks/Flipbook_Sample_H_BB_HD_AlbertPujolsHomeRunSwing_001.pdf
There are a bunch of other clips of other players here:
http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/ProfessionalHitterAnalyses/index.html
As Ted Williams said on page 68 from the excerpt from Science of Hitting that I posted: "If I sound obsessed with the idea, it is because I am; I advocate the up swing."
Ted certainly didn't swing down through the ball:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwogLVGtDa8
Chipper doesn't either:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZSJogfTcW0
Nor does Manny:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e7p6nvA6po
For almost any high level player, the hands go downward initially because they start around the shoulder, then the swing flattens out, then it goes into a slight upswing through the ball. Better hitters follow the plane of the pitch (the pitch is going downward, the swing is going upward) to maximize the time the bat is in the zone. See this too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fu1pV_uIJMI&feature=related
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tater77bug
133 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2010 : 09:27:56
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| Hit the bottom half??? Really??? |
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Alter-Ego
802 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2010 : 14:09:06
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I think the direction on this is geared more for the batter to think about this rather than actually being able to do it. In order to hit the inside of the ball they have to think about keeping their hands inside the ball, not go around it.
To the original question, I think there are three main reasons a batter hits the ball on the ground:
1) He swings at a pitch low in the zone/below the strike zone
2) He is making contact with the ball too far out front, after the wrists have rolled and/or hip shifting
3) Pulls out and tops the ball.
(I am sure there are others, but these seem to be the most common)
Which one your son is doing would need observation. |
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Gold Glove
129 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2010 : 15:26:24
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Mike Epstein instruction is so flawed you would have to be crazy to teach your kid to swing like that. Before you start showing film of Barry Bonds and Arod, remember the probability of one of our kids being that gifted is over 1 million to one. And the amount a fastball drops while it is in the hitting zone is minute. So save your uppercuts for slow pitch softball.
Hitting the middle of the baseball with a level swing through the hitting zone is perfection. It is very hard to do but is the way young hitters should be taught. Level swing, level swing, level swing! |
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MadSkills
128 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2010 : 22:26:20
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It's not the drop of the fastball, it has to do with where the ball starts out of the pitchers hand and where it ends up. I think most would agree that the ball thrown from a 6ft pitcher on a mound is on a downward plane as it reaches homeplate.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying rotation hitting is the answer but from a physics stand point it does make sense. |
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sward
369 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2010 : 23:22:34
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Understand there are different ways of getting to the same point. We could break down mechanics in ways the naked eye can't see and be very technical...or we could also teach for feeling. Every player has different things to fix and all players respond differently. For a player that keeps the hands from falling, I agree with the fact that you start down...then move to a level position and eventually lift.
Back to the topic.....keep your boy balanced, inside the ball, and finally through the ball. |
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gasbag
281 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2010 : 09:59:05
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I must be missing something here....the bat starts out above the shoulders of every batter....the strike zone is below the shoulders of every batter, thus the bat must be lowered to address the ball....the bat ends up above the shoulder on the follow through of every batter. This upwards swing downward swing you are all discussing is confusing to me...and I'm an adult !
Now add to that, your discussion of rotational hitting vs. linear hitting ? Last time I looked, if the bat starts out on one shoulder and ends up on the other shoulder in the follow through and you are loading properly, it will automatically cause your hips to rotate.
Leave it to us adults to complicate the issue !!!!!! I guess if we can all describe things differently, it allows us to produce more videos, one on one instruction and just more lucrative opportunities all around. The more complicated we can make it, the more lucrative the opportunity it seems .
Not suggesting that hitting is not a complex compound movement. Just remember when we are instructing our players...KISS...keep it simple stupid....
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biged
198 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2010 : 13:01:02
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| I agree with most of what Epstien says. However, I have observed high school kids in North Ga./North Carolina who have had little or no training in organized hitting instruction and their swings are very L-----o-----n-----g. I don't believe swings are as natural as he suggest |
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21BS21
28 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2010 : 13:46:01
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Ok, leaving science out of it. If my son is tending to pop the ball up over the last few at bats, I recommend hitting the top of the ball. My hope is that he will adjust just enough to hit the center of the ball. I would rather him hit a ground ball that makes the defense make 3 plays instead of a pop up that only requires 1. JMO
What do I know, I played basketball. |
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Taterhater
66 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2010 : 00:27:15
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I agree that a long swing is the biggest problem that I observe with today's young hitters. There is no way I'd ever teach my kid, or any other, to "hit the bottom half of the ball". That approach promotes: dropping the barrel of the bat below the hands (an undeniable weaker approach than barrel above or level with hands) and a "chicken wing" approach with the front elbow which will cause the back side to drop.
A second problem I see with young hitters is not keeping the bat in the hitting zone long enough. This is primarily because kids aren't "hands hitters" and are, instead, "shoulders hitters" and take the bat through the hitting zone in a diagonal direction. There is more than one reason that pitchers throw pitches away, away, away and one of them is that hitters just don't keep the bat in the zone long enough and let the ball get deep enough to hit the outside pitch with any authority.
But what do I know? |
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bluecup
49 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2010 : 17:41:02
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Here is a scientific study, discussing the fact that slightly UNDERcutting the ball (hitting the bottom half) provides the furthest distance:
http://webusers.npl.illinois.edu/~a-nathan/pob/AJP-Nov03.pdf
IMO, teaching players to swing down on the ball and hitting the top half of the ball will limit their chances at long term success. Personally, I'd rather teach what good players actually do. There is no successful MLB hitter today who I know of that consistently hits the top of the baseball and swings down through it, trying to hit hard ground balls.
If players have 'long swings,' they should be taught to swing correctly, starting from the ground up, using their hips and hands correctly...they should not drop their hands and swing straight up nor cut down through the top of the ball. Again the ideal swing plane is down, then flat then up...not straight down nor straight up. http://batspeed.com/tf07.html
Hitting the middle of the ball is awesome (hard line drives). Hitting slightly on either side is great too (rising line drives or very hard hit ground balls). But trying to hit through the top of the ball and swinging down through it--you better have world class speed to beat all of your ground balls against a decent fielding team.
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loveforthegame25
448 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2010 : 17:01:38
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| My sons instructor is focusing on hitting the ball square, with back spin not top spin to right center. So i guess in real terms thats the bottom. I cant quote what he says off the top of my head but its working. My son has hit better this year after lessons at the ECB Academy. Hitting was always second to his defense. But this year they are equal. |
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Top half or Bottom half of basbeall...
