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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
 Posted - 09/06/2017 : 09:06:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Vandy
You can bet on one thing for certain. If the bean counters at PG get even the slightest intel that teams are not entering tourneys because of bat rules, the rules will open back up. Same if they get pressure from the sponsoring manufacturers like Wilson, ie Louisville Slugger and Demarini. Crazy that the perceived standard is wood yet you cannot use the real deal.
Then we would just have parents complaining about the cost of wood bats because their 12u kid can't swing it correctly and it keeps breaking. Get a Baum bat people will say, Baum are drop 3 and as MULTIPLE threads on this website proclaim "How can we ask weeee little Johnny to swing a drop 3 bat at at 12! THE HORROR!!!! |
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Gapper
64 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2017 : 09:08:50
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| Why would the sponsoring manufacturers put pressure on them? They are all selling bats that meet the USA Standard. More money for them. And people won't skip the PG tournaments, that is where their 10 year old is going to start getting recruited right? |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2017 : 09:15:49
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| Yes^^^and as Punishers points out most of the approved bats are metal, not composite, how exactly are those more "wood like"? Also anyone notice that not a single Marucci bat is on the "approved bat" list? Still wondering if 13U will be allowed to just use BBCOR come Jan 1? That's the age group that seems to be up in the air. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2017 : 12:46:09
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Playing PG is not high on the list for a lot of 12u and below teams anyway. This whole bat thing is a mess like I knew it would turn out to be. No scout is looking at your kid until they step on a 60/90 field anyway.
I look at it this way: I walked into the GMC dealership yesterday and told the salesman, "I am looking for vehicle that performs like a truck, but is not a truck". You can just imagine the confusion on his face.
That is the same confusion everyone is having about using a bat with wood-like performance, but is not wood, with 3 times the price. There is no substitute for the real thing.
Let me ping the guys at Marucci about this. |
Edited by - Punishers on 09/06/2017 14:06:26 |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 09/06/2017 : 13:43:31
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Vandy
You can bet on one thing for certain. If the bean counters at PG get even the slightest intel that teams are not entering tourneys because of bat rules, the rules will open back up. Same if they get pressure from the sponsoring manufacturers like Wilson, ie Louisville Slugger and Demarini. Crazy that the perceived standard is wood yet you cannot use the real deal.
Then we would just have parents complaining about the cost of wood bats because their 12u kid can't swing it correctly and it keeps breaking. Get a Baum bat people will say, Baum are drop 3 and as MULTIPLE threads on this website proclaim "How can we ask weeee little Johnny to swing a drop 3 bat at at 12! THE HORROR!!!!
That's because they want to swing drop 10 bats forever! LOL Forcing kids to swing the bats they should swing is a social crime. |
Edited by - Punishers on 09/06/2017 14:06:32 |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2017 : 10:55:13
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From Marucci:
Thank you for contacting Marucci! Unfortunately we will not be making any bats that meet the new standards of the USABat stamp. We apologize for this issue and please let us know if there is anything else we can help you with! |
Edited by - Punishers on 09/07/2017 12:36:52 |
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Vandy
36 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2017 : 13:13:06
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"That's because they want to swing drop 10 bats forever! LOL Forcing kids to swing the bats they should swing is a social crime."
That's because they want to see their child hit monster 200 footers at 10.
Imagine if you will... A relatively dead bat or wood from 5-12. Call it "Babycore". This would serve a couple of purposes. 1) It would get the real players on wood very early. 2) it would prevent the bigger kids from hitting 30 home runs per year at the younger ages with the short parks or worse the come backer that kills a kid. @ 13 it's -3 bbcor. Forget drop 12, 10, 8, 5. You would have better hitters at 14 across the board. |
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South GA Baseball
27 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2017 : 15:19:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Vandy
"That's because they want to swing drop 10 bats forever! LOL Forcing kids to swing the bats they should swing is a social crime."
That's because they want to see their child hit monster 200 footers at 10.
Imagine if you will... A relatively dead bat or wood from 5-12. Call it "Babycore". This would serve a couple of purposes. 1) It would get the real players on wood very early. 2) it would prevent the bigger kids from hitting 30 home runs per year at the younger ages with the short parks or worse the come backer that kills a kid. @ 13 it's -3 bbcor. Forget drop 12, 10, 8, 5. You would have better hitters at 14 across the board.
You may have better hitters for the players at 14 but I think you would also have a lot less players across the board. A large portion of rec league players struggle to hit the ball out of the infield or have success in general. What is it going to do for the participation numbers in these leagues for the average player? In my opinion it is going to make it less fun and less will participate than previous years. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2017 : 15:46:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Vandy
"That's because they want to swing drop 10 bats forever! LOL Forcing kids to swing the bats they should swing is a social crime."
That's because they want to see their child hit monster 200 footers at 10.
Imagine if you will... A relatively dead bat or wood from 5-12. Call it "Babycore". This would serve a couple of purposes. 1) It would get the real players on wood very early. 2) it would prevent the bigger kids from hitting 30 home runs per year at the younger ages with the short parks or worse the come backer that kills a kid. @ 13 it's -3 bbcor. Forget drop 12, 10, 8, 5. You would have better hitters at 14 across the board.
I agree there would be better hitters in the long term and phase out the blind, once every 6 game, hitters also. Too many have gotten home run happy with the POP bats that give unrealistic results. If it can't be done with wood, it's not legitimate. Still, why simulate the wood effect with other materials (USA bats)? There is no ash or maple shortage as some would claim.
Guess there is a safety concern with using wood too. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2017 : 08:57:55
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| Having wood at 5-12u would reduce the number of kids at a park as the instant gratification decreased.. This isn't the DR, we aren't training kids to be professional baseball players from near birth. We have parents signing up their kids for social reasons and maybe they are good and maybe they aren't, but it's just a game until 14u. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2017 : 10:27:38
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
Having wood at 5-12u would reduce the number of kids at a park as the instant gratification decreased.. This isn't the DR, we aren't training kids to be professional baseball players from near birth. We have parents signing up their kids for social reasons and maybe they are good and maybe they aren't, but it's just a game until 14u.
Same as having a bat that simulates wood that costs 3 times as much. There is only one way to play the game. The right way. |
Edited by - Punishers on 09/08/2017 12:07:06 |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2017 : 14:33:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
Having wood at 5-12u would reduce the number of kids at a park as the instant gratification decreased.. This isn't the DR, we aren't training kids to be professional baseball players from near birth. We have parents signing up their kids for social reasons and maybe they are good and maybe they aren't, but it's just a game until 14u.
Same as having a bat that simulates wood that costs 3 times as much. There is only one way to play the game. The right way.
I'm getting the impression it may simulate wood but still be a drop 10 or more.....i.e. easier for the little people to swing, but not as much of a trampoline effect...that is until someone figures out how to roll it. It is metal after all. |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2017 : 09:28:02
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| I tend to agree with Punishers. My son loves the pop of his bat as much as the next kid, but those saying kids will quit and drop out and there won't be rec league any more etc, didn't your kids ever play in a wood bat tournament when they were younger? The boys on our teams loved them, often looking forward to them all season! And as a matter of fact, I tend to think hitting with wood actually boosts the confidence of weaker hitters because they don't have to watch their bigger, stronger team mates hit bomb after bomb while they can't, even with their popped up bats. Makes a home run much rarer and thus when it occurs, something to truly celebrate. Also wood helps them perfect their swing much earlier on. If it was the standard across the board, none of the kids would think anything of it..maybe a few age groups would struggle adjusting but after that the next generation coming up wouldn't know the difference. Before the new improved super bats when everyone hit wood, baseball somehow survived. Just my opinion of course! |
Edited by - Crazyforbball on 09/09/2017 09:49:10 |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2017 : 15:08:27
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
Having wood at 5-12u would reduce the number of kids at a park as the instant gratification decreased.. This isn't the DR, we aren't training kids to be professional baseball players from near birth. We have parents signing up their kids for social reasons and maybe they are good and maybe they aren't, but it's just a game until 14u.
Same as having a bat that simulates wood that costs 3 times as much. There is only one way to play the game. The right way.
I'm getting the impression it may simulate wood but still be a drop 10 or more.....i.e. easier for the little people to swing, but not as much of a trampoline effect...that is until someone figures out how to roll it. It is metal after all.
All that means is that in reality those kids can't swing a 30" bat in wood and will have to swing a 26 or 27" wood bat. Still would make them a better hitter when it really matters. Looks like the new rule of thumb for choosing a bat just went from "the heaviest one you can swing" to "swing drop 10 until 14u". Whenever I see 12u swinging drop 10 bats I know there is a 85% chance their baseball future will end at the youth level. What's really sad is that I have actually seen kids bring drop 10 bats to middle school tryouts. |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2017 : 13:25:12
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| Just seems like it would be SO much simpler if all ages used wood bats, from teeny ones straight through to the pros. Would save a lot of confusion and a lot of money. |
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bballer2226
12 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2017 : 14:33:37
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| So bottom line as it stands right now basically no travel ball teams around Atlanta under age 14 are affected by this unless you play Perfect Game? To add to the stupidity Perfect Game wants everyone to go out and pay hundreds of dollars for a metal bat that performs like wood but wont allow kids to use an actual wood bat? Please correct me if I'm wrong but if this is the case then this is the dumbest bunch of crap I've ever heard of. Perfect Game should not restrict the use of wood bats. |
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Around_the_Horn
31 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2017 : 21:00:31
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| So is this enough for the younger teams to not play PG? Will coaches and parents decide to not play PG because the additional cost is just not worth it, or is the allure of PG just too strong and everyone will pay the additional cost? Or will teams just pitch in and buy one or two PG bats and everyone will share like we did in the old days? |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2017 : 01:14:56
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I sent PG an email about allowing 12u and below to use 13u (-5) bats instead of -10 USA bats. No response yet. Teams would be better off playing an actual wood bat tournament than paying big coin playing PG at the youth level. I wish there were more wood bat tournaments in the metro area. Going all wood bats would put the composite and aluminum manufacturers back to where they were originally made for, Softball. Their infiltration of those bats in baseball has tainted the real way the game should be played. You got below average players hitting bombs with them, who would other wise strike out or tap infield dribblers with wood
I give PG a A+ for changing the bats required, but they get a big F- for not allowing wood bats. Let's just see what the other tournaments come up with for the Spring bat requirements. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2017 : 07:25:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
Having wood at 5-12u would reduce the number of kids at a park as the instant gratification decreased.. This isn't the DR, we aren't training kids to be professional baseball players from near birth. We have parents signing up their kids for social reasons and maybe they are good and maybe they aren't, but it's just a game until 14u.
Same as having a bat that simulates wood that costs 3 times as much. There is only one way to play the game. The right way.
I'm getting the impression it may simulate wood but still be a drop 10 or more.....i.e. easier for the little people to swing, but not as much of a trampoline effect...that is until someone figures out how to roll it. It is metal after all.
All that means is that in reality those kids can't swing a 30" bat in wood and will have to swing a 26 or 27" wood bat. Still would make them a better hitter when it really matters. Looks like the new rule of thumb for choosing a bat just went from "the heaviest one you can swing" to "swing drop 10 until 14u". Whenever I see 12u swinging drop 10 bats I know there is a 85% chance their baseball future will end at the youth level. What's really sad is that I have actually seen kids bring drop 10 bats to middle school tryouts.
Couldn't disagree with you more. 12u across the board are suppose to be using drop 10 bats. Since middle school is 6-8th grade that makes kids 10-13...again...suppose to be swinging a drop 10.
I read all this hype about gradually going to a heavier bat, actually asked my sons coach in 12u if I should maybe get him a drop 5, his response was very typical of the higher level coaches, "he's swinging the lightest bat he's allowed to swing". At the end of 12u my son was entering 8th grade. I moved him to 14u that year and he went from drop 10 to drop 3...and 50 ft pitching to 60 ft pitching...took maybe a month in the fall to sort it out in his head, then he was fine on both fronts. |
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turntwo
955 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2017 : 09:10:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Around_the_Horn
So is this enough for the younger teams to not play PG? Will coaches and parents decide to not play PG because the additional cost is just not worth it, or is the allure of PG just too strong and everyone will pay the additional cost? Or will teams just pitch in and buy one or two PG bats and everyone will share like we did in the old days?
With the plethora of youth tournaments in/around Atlanta (Triple Crown, Travelball Select, USSSA, Training Legends, Grand Slam, Southern Sports Promotions) that ARE allowing the 1.15 BPF bats still, I would find it surprising if ANY youth team played PG in the spring. Just an added cost for having to buy an additional bat...
Some of us cannot afford that. Some of us can barely afford paying the dues, much less new bats every year. My son is swinging a 2 yr old bat that I bought used at 60% off of retail price. If the bat breaks, we'll go to play it again, or search craigslist, or here to find a cheap replacement. I know if our team were to play in a PG, if a teammate doesn't let my son borrow a bat, my son will not play that weekend. |
Edited by - turntwo on 09/12/2017 09:48:29 |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2017 : 11:50:16
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
Having wood at 5-12u would reduce the number of kids at a park as the instant gratification decreased.. This isn't the DR, we aren't training kids to be professional baseball players from near birth. We have parents signing up their kids for social reasons and maybe they are good and maybe they aren't, but it's just a game until 14u.
Same as having a bat that simulates wood that costs 3 times as much. There is only one way to play the game. The right way.
I'm getting the impression it may simulate wood but still be a drop 10 or more.....i.e. easier for the little people to swing, but not as much of a trampoline effect...that is until someone figures out how to roll it. It is metal after all.
All that means is that in reality those kids can't swing a 30" bat in wood and will have to swing a 26 or 27" wood bat. Still would make them a better hitter when it really matters. Looks like the new rule of thumb for choosing a bat just went from "the heaviest one you can swing" to "swing drop 10 until 14u". Whenever I see 12u swinging drop 10 bats I know there is a 85% chance their baseball future will end at the youth level. What's really sad is that I have actually seen kids bring drop 10 bats to middle school tryouts.
Couldn't disagree with you more. 12u across the board are suppose to be using drop 10 bats. Since middle school is 6-8th grade that makes kids 10-13...again...suppose to be swinging a drop 10.
I read all this hype about gradually going to a heavier bat, actually asked my sons coach in 12u if I should maybe get him a drop 5, his response was very typical of the higher level coaches, "he's swinging the lightest bat he's allowed to swing". At the end of 12u my son was entering 8th grade. I moved him to 14u that year and he went from drop 10 to drop 3...and 50 ft pitching to 60 ft pitching...took maybe a month in the fall to sort it out in his head, then he was fine on both fronts.
I did say 85%. Now if all the players on your sons 12u team did the same, I can see your disagreement. Who says 12u across the board should be swinging drop 10? I know many uprising 12u teams using drop 5 bats. Middle school ball does have a minimum bat drop and I have yet to see drop 10 on the list. |
Edited by - Punishers on 09/12/2017 11:55:44 |
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baseball713
60 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2017 : 12:13:46
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quote:
Couldn't disagree with you more. 12u across the board are suppose to be using drop 10 bats. Since middle school is 6-8th grade that makes kids 10-13...again...suppose to be swinging a drop 10.
I read all this hype about gradually going to a heavier bat, actually asked my sons coach in 12u if I should maybe get him a drop 5, his response was very typical of the higher level coaches, "he's swinging the lightest bat he's allowed to swing". At the end of 12u my son was entering 8th grade. I moved him to 14u that year and he went from drop 10 to drop 3...and 50 ft pitching to 60 ft pitching...took maybe a month in the fall to sort it out in his head, then he was fine on both fronts.
I thought middle school is drop 5? Shouldn't 12 yrs old be going drop 5, or at least drop 8? And isn't it better to use the heaviest bat you can swing while still retaining control, as opposed to the lightest bat you are allowed to swing? Wouldn't the bigger mass with the heavier bat help with the power?
As far as PG is concerned, I do like playing PG bec of being able to play in LakePoint. Our boys love the fields there. If not for that, we probably wouldn't play PG. If we play PG, I already told our coach that we won't be buying another USABat, but will just borrow someone's. Coach is thinking of just buying a bat for the team to share for PG tournaments. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2017 : 13:21:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
All that means is that in reality those kids can't swing a 30" bat in wood and will have to swing a 26 or 27" wood bat. Still would make them a better hitter when it really matters. Looks like the new rule of thumb for choosing a bat just went from "the heaviest one you can swing" to "swing drop 10 until 14u". Whenever I see 12u swinging drop 10 bats I know there is a 85% chance their baseball future will end at the youth level. What's really sad is that I have actually seen kids bring drop 10 bats to middle school tryouts.
Couldn't disagree with you more. 12u across the board are suppose to be using drop 10 bats. Since middle school is 6-8th grade that makes kids 10-13...again...suppose to be swinging a drop 10.
I read all this hype about gradually going to a heavier bat, actually asked my sons coach in 12u if I should maybe get him a drop 5, his response was very typical of the higher level coaches, "he's swinging the lightest bat he's allowed to swing". At the end of 12u my son was entering 8th grade. I moved him to 14u that year and he went from drop 10 to drop 3...and 50 ft pitching to 60 ft pitching...took maybe a month in the fall to sort it out in his head, then he was fine on both fronts.
I did say 85%. Now if all the players on your sons 12u team did the same, I can see your disagreement. Who says 12u across the board should be swinging drop 10? I know many uprising 12u teams using drop 5 bats. Middle school ball does have a minimum bat drop and I have yet to see drop 10 on the list.
Yes, all players were told not to swing anything but a drop 10. I can't say I have kept up with all of them, but those that I have are still playing, they would all be 15u now.
Middle school ball is not present everywhere. For those that are trying to play middle school ball, why buy a BBCOR until you are sure you made the team? Coaches can see just fine how you swing with a drop 10 and since USSSA lets a kid swing drop 10 at 14u...well again...I think 12 year olds swinging drop 10 have no bearing on their longevity in baseball. |
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Vandy
36 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2017 : 22:46:34
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"Having wood at 5-12u would reduce the number of kids at a park as the instant gratification decreased.. This isn't the DR, we aren't training kids to be professional baseball players from near birth. We have parents signing up their kids for social reasons and maybe they are good and maybe they aren't, but it's just a game until 14u."
I could not disagree more...
30-40 years ago it was a right of passage to take your kid down at age 5 and sign him/her up to play little league. Everyone in the town did it. The leagues were full of teams from the various neighborhoods. Youth Baseball #'s have dwindled continually since. It had absolutely nothing to do with the wood bat. I remember paying $7.50 for a Louisville Slugger wooden bat when I was 12. I know I'm dating myself.. I also remember the first alloy bats. Alcoa made em. $26 bucks when the average wood Aderondack or LS was 8-10 bucks. I never had one. I did have to glue and wrap string around a broken bat or two until I got with the program. There were indeed kids that were never any good and they generally quit by about 12. Same as now. What sucks now is the guy that wants to play at 15 but is not skilled enough to play HS or most travel no longer has a place to play. They used to. I have seen many a kid at 15 who still love the game but have nowhere to play. Point is, as soon as you start making it an elite product, ie material, etc, costing 10 times as much, you limit the number of players. I have seen my fair share of kids around the park with $450 dollar bats that will NEVER be a good hitter. I love the game and would like to see more kids enjoying it. I say keep the costs low until they are at the age they can hit the ball a couple hundred feet with a wood bat. That is usually 11-12 for the better hitters. |
Edited by - Vandy on 09/13/2017 10:10:25 |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2017 : 00:17:12
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Just got this in my inbox from U-trip:
USSSA Baseball Bat Standards...
USSSA is aware that several youth baseball associations have announced or are planning to announce that they are going to a new wood-like bat (marked with a USA Baseball mark) as the performance standard for bats in their association sanctioned activities beginning January 1, 2018.
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USSSA is not currently making changes to its bat performance standard. USSSA has had a formal 1.15 BPF standard for baseball bats used in 14U and below (allowing diameters of up to 2 3/4”) for over 12 years. Under its BPF standard, USSSA Baseball sanctioned events are played at a near perfect competitive balance for defense and offense that has led to continued dramatic growth in USSSA Baseball sanctioned events. In the view of USSSA, a reduced performance bat standard would hurt overall participation in the game.
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As an accommodation to our USSSA teams and players who also play in non-USSSA events, beginning January 1, 2018, USA Baseball marked bats manufactured by a USSSA authorized manufacturer will be allowed in USSSA play unless the bat creates a competitive distortion (such as being too easily altered) or the bat somehow creates a safety concern.
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With over 12 years of insurance and playing history (with more than half a billion at bats and 10 million games played) under its 1.15 BPF performance standard, USSSA is in the unique position of having the historical data to determine the actual accident/injury levels of USSSA Baseball under the 1.15 BPF standard. It is clear from that history that USSSA Baseball is among the safest amateur sports that is played in the United States. Because accidents do happen and a low statistical probability of accidents/injuries does nothing to protect a person that does get injured, the use of protective gear is not only permitted but encouraged for those wishing to have such additional protection in USSSA sanctioned events. In addition, the purchase of personal or team insurance is always a prudent action and is encouraged by USSSA and is made available by USSSA for its participants, coaches, etc. |
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USA Bat standards - 14 and under
