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Bravemom
204 Posts |
 Posted - 07/13/2017 : 05:36:21
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I will start of by saying we are not talking about the elite athlete, but just very good players with lots of potential (AAA:/Low Major)
Curious to hear feedback from parents of older players. I have noticed that the park teams don't get much love even though they can be very competitive. In the over 13u , teams like Roswell Green Hornets, Acworth Warrior and Sand Plains Wildcats play PG and TC. They are very competitive and for the most part have either paid coaches or a dad with college experience.
So why pay the extra $$$ or drive 45-1hr for the academy? Is it the college contacts? What age does that really become important?
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Edited by - Bravemom on 07/13/2017 05:37:34 |
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Caseyatbat
12 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2017 : 11:47:42
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| Right there with you and have done both. Excited to see the input for this question. |
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bfriendly
376 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2017 : 13:55:23
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Doing this for the last 5 years or so, I have found the question to be, Where are the "Park" teams going to do Winter workouts? Are they even having them? The Academies typically have speed and agility workouts during winter and most park teams will Utilize some academy(RBI, Fury etc...) in order to have something indoor. For at least a few weeks each year, I like my boy to sweat INdoors. I will add that the speed and agility pays dividends for sure.....at least for us it has
The other thing is more-than-likely, most of the Park teams have dad coaches vs an academy instructor taking on a team and wanting to get paid for it........with them also soliciting their respective academy, its a win win for everyone. There are also places like DBats who want to have LOTS of teams using their indoor facility(all available amenities like training etc), but they dont have a Team, persay. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2017 : 14:27:24
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| The reality is none of this is really important until 16u. No scout in the US is looking at kids 15 yo and below. Many will filter out from 13u to 16u as the game is more about pitching and boring with low scores. Not as many college contacts as is led to believe. Have a better chance with college contacts from a HS coach. Think of it like this: I have a friend of a friend that knows a guy who may be friends of the guy who walks the dog of the nephew of an amateur scout who may know a friend of a college scout's lawn care guy that may get you in front of the son-in-law of the college scout and so on. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2017 : 14:33:48
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Depends on the kids age and baseball aspirations.
16u that wants to go to play baseball in college you will need the academy contacts. For this reason many of the local travel parks won't have teams past 15u, or they will have a 15u/16u team.
10u kid that is tired of rec ball kids missing his throws and wants to play MORE baseball, I see no reason to spend money on an academy team at that age. Some will say it's best to get excellent instruction early on. Okay, so join a cheaper team and pay for private lessons if you must. However, I can't tell you how much my sons body changed from 12u-14u! Everything had to be retaught from the way he ran to the way he threw! Paying 3K at 10u would have been idiotic since everything had to be re-learned anyway.
The tricky area is 14u and 15u. Again, I will go back to college. If a kid wants to play in college it's best to start getting him in front of people who can train him to look like everyone else. I've seen some wonderful dad coaches, very supportive great guys, but they would not have been able to tell you what exactly is a red flag to a college coach. If your kid needs to know that then I would suggest one of the following (which I stole from another thread):
643
ECB
Team Elite
Nelson
GA Jackets
Ninth Inning
GA bombers
Home plate Chili Dog
If you can find a knowledgeable couch outside of one of these places that knows the game and has the contacts then I say go for it, but it's rare. |
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aj94
182 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2017 : 14:46:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Bravemom
I will start of by saying we are not talking about the elite athlete, but just very good players with lots of potential (AAA:/Low Major)
Curious to hear feedback from parents of older players. I have noticed that the park teams don't get much love even though they can be very competitive. In the over 13u , teams like Roswell Green Hornets, Acworth Warrior and Sand Plains Wildcats play PG and TC. They are very competitive and for the most part have either paid coaches or a dad with college experience.
So why pay the extra $$$ or drive 45-1hr for the academy? Is it the college contacts? What age does that really become important?
Who says an "Academy" is important at all? Played a couple "Academy" teams in my time and beat them with straight out the park teams. |
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RoamingCF
77 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2017 : 19:00:43
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I agree with bits & pieces of the above. Some personal perspective:
- play with the best caliber teammates every year. If you want to progress, be challenged in practice and in games (no matter the park)
- top teams are NOT about development. It may occur, but it is all about production. Be careful what you wish for!
- recognize it does get more difficult to make top teams at 13/14 etc. Those teams are typically looking for pieces (e.g. LHP, middle IF, another arm). It's tough to stand out if you aren't filling a specific need - it's best to get in early!
- when we talk colleges & scouts, this is less than 10%. That is the numbers. BUT the lessons learned competing at the highest level, supporting a dream, being brothers on a team...there are MORE reasons to give your child this experience. Be realistic with it, and you will see rewards.
Net-net: It's about the byproducts. Embrace the challenge, get the life lessons, and enjoy the experience. The opportunity to play in HS or college (or even pro ball) is uncertain, but it's fun to dream. |
Edited by - RoamingCF on 07/13/2017 19:41:36 |
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dgersh22
169 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2017 : 20:21:03
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I agree with AJ94. I don't believe Academy teams are all that at any age. Sure they show a laundry list of players going to colleges on their websites, but most of these kids come from their top tier teams. These players are going to get looks regardless. Find a coach on a team that is going to work to find the fringe college players a place to play.
I took a look at the most recent WWBA in the 17 and 18U age bracket, these where all mostly 2017-2019 players. The ages were many of you say are in the prime time of being recruited and offered. Here is what the "big" Academies showed:
643 - 7 teams- 29 commitments (18 off of one team)
EC- 14 teams- 80 commitments (43 from Astros and Yankees)
Georgia Jackets- 3 teams 4 commitments
Team Elite- 8 teams- 46 commitments (24 from Prime)
Nelson- 4 teams - 4 commitments
Not a very good hit ratio, if you figure a minimum of 18-20 players per team. Also ask yourself of these commitments how many played with this perspective academy while they were being recruited or did they get recruited to the team after making a commitment (Yankees, Prime).
When I said above that an elite player is going to be recruited regardless, we all no that is going to happen.
I then looked at a team from this year and one from last year that I know was coached by dad coaches and are non-traditional academy teams. The Georgia Giants have 14 of their 28 players committed to play. I know this coach only from speaking with him and coaching against him. He is a dad coach that has worked for everyone of his players to move on to the next level. My other example is the team I coached last year. We were a local team that was very competitive with all fringe players, but we were able to have 16 of our 20 players move on to the next level. It is not rocket science on how this is done, you have to have coaches that are motivated to work for their players. Quite frankly their are not a lot of academy coaches that know the coaches at the fringe level. You have to be able to get to know them and tell them about your product, send out rosters, study their rosters, send out pitching schedules, invite them out to games, tell them how your players are doing, be honest with them on your players capabilities, etc. It is more than just coming to games and practices.
If you are a parent of a HS player with dreams of playing at the next level, honestly with the right home work you can find a place to play. When deciding on which team to play with I would ask the following to coaches:
How do you communicate with college recruiters/coaches
Do you touch base with these coaches on all of your players
Do you always keep a current roster with contact info to give coaches (you wouldn't believe how many don't)
My son most likely isn't a D1 player, do you reach out to D3, D2, NAIA, ETC.
Do you do video, stop watch times, pop charts, etc to give to coaches (this should be done for free as part of your team fees)
Do you send out when pitchers are going to pitch
If my son lets you know well enough in advance that he has XYZ coach coming to watch, do you make an effort to make sure that player is playing and playing the position he is being recruited for. If he is good enough to be on your team he should be good enough for you to make this happen.
Things I asked of my players (not the parents)
Pick out 10 colleges you think you want to attend, 10 that you want to play at, and 10 you think you can play at and contact these schools (this may change thru the year). Letting them know about your interest, academics and I always have them put something in the email about the school, for example I am interested in studying business and the Johnson school of business meets the needs for what I want to study
Send at least 4 emails to coaches on your list inviting them to watch you play before every tournament
Send thank you notes to coaches who do attend your games
Always have a professional demeanor any time you are anywhere near a ballpark or in uniform. You never know who is around.
Lastly always warmup and play like someone is watching, because they usually are.
My last tidbit is, remember only a small percentage of our children/players are D1 are pro material, but their are many schools out their looking for quality fringe players, especially players with great grades!
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BaseballMom6
233 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2017 : 21:48:45
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be wary of academies, not all teams are created equal. Many will sell you a line, take your money and not have any of the contacts. Others will have all the contacts and truly give your son the opportunity to be seen and recruited. Be very diligent and do your homework. Be wary of handing over money before you are certain the team, coaches and players are really what they say they are.
Don't exclude a park team simply because they don't have a winter workout, speed and agility training. The money saved can easily pay for you to sign your kid of to do that at any of the numerous academies that offer those programs. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2017 : 22:54:26
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| Just keep this in mind. College coaches are looking for players to help them win. Their job is to win or they will not have a job, so they look for players to help them win. Very little, if any development is happening. I learned this when I was in college as a freshman and took a seniors spot. They want polished players. The true studs will be found regardless where they play |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2017 : 08:23:13
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Winter training can be a nice bonus but most higher level kids are doing it on their own. If they aren't financially able to hire a place like Rapid Sports Performance to train their kid then they are buying a gym membership for $30 a month, or even asking the football coach if they can train with them at the school. The kid who is serious about moving on is going to get himself in shape and he will train to get stronger and faster, and it won't be a coach telling him to do so.
I also agree, if a kid wants to play in college he can. D2, D3, NAIA, Juco...all are great options to continue to play baseball. |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2017 : 09:00:41
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| I think it's largely a function of your son's goal, AND your ability as a parent to get your son recruited IF his goal is the next level. Certain organizations are capable of helping you navigate, 643, ECB (and only a SELECT group of teams there) as well as Nelson know how to get your son seen IF that's the goal. Many of the top teams nationally with highly committed rosters are "put together" teams too with kids coming from all over the country to play on a particular team for particular tournaments..unlike Nelson, for example, which produces top 10 national level teams but only with local boys, so there's that too..does your son value the team experience or more interested in just getting himself there. Neither is right or wrong as a junior or senior imo. Name recognition DOES play a part...go watch a PG national championship and see where the scouts congregate. I think you have to be realistic too. If your boy really doesn't have what it takes to make it by 16, then let him have fun. Don't warm the bench to wear a big name jersey. |
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Browncat1
19 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2017 : 15:19:30
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I have enjoyed reading for the past 7 years really have never really posted. Obviously there is no one way to accomplish your overall goals. However, my experience has been if you can find a good park dad coached team that stresses development with kids and parents you enjoy being around then stay with them as long as you can. Typically this is going to be through Cooperstown or the 13U season. This may be driven due to until that fact you really don’t know what you have and the kids start to separate themselves from an interest and skill level at that point. After that you take an honest assessment on your kids skill level and future ambitions then find the right academy that matches your philosophy around the 13U or 14U season. There are many academies that do work hard to match your son with the right college.
It seems to me that the Parks are overly critical of the academies and vice versa. I have yet to find the park that has the coaching, field space, and talented players at the High School level that can help a real college prospect reach his goals. Please correct me if I am wrong and tell me where they are as I will go tryout there.
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2017 : 08:39:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Browncat1
I have enjoyed reading for the past 7 years really have never really posted. Obviously there is no one way to accomplish your overall goals. However, my experience has been if you can find a good park dad coached team that stresses development with kids and parents you enjoy being around then stay with them as long as you can. Typically this is going to be through Cooperstown or the 13U season. This may be driven due to until that fact you really don’t know what you have and the kids start to separate themselves from an interest and skill level at that point. After that you take an honest assessment on your kids skill level and future ambitions then find the right academy that matches your philosophy around the 13U or 14U season. There are many academies that do work hard to match your son with the right college.
It seems to me that the Parks are overly critical of the academies and vice versa. I have yet to find the park that has the coaching, field space, and talented players at the High School level that can help a real college prospect reach his goals. Please correct me if I am wrong and tell me where they are as I will go tryout there.
I think you may be right. Parks do not like the private and academy teams. They see it as money they are not getting cause players in their cluster do not play there. Parks are turning into ghost towns due to their failure to rent fields or foster competitive level teams, even though they claim to be a feeder program for high school. Usually the HS coaches want nothing to do with the parks as their recommendations are not taken. Some HS coaches have started their own feeder teams because of the parks own dislike of his advice. After 12u is a breaking point for many.
What I have noticed is that HS softball coaches are very active at the park teams and with the coaches. Then again, softball is travel only. |
Edited by - Punishers on 07/16/2017 13:22:34 |
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NF1974
62 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2017 : 11:42:05
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I agree with both dgersh22 and Browncat1. Here is my perspective from the father of a current Senior in college. At the earlier ages say before 13U, play with the kids you like and coaches that will work with you. At these earlier ages, the parent connections and fun that you will have together is as much a part of the overall experience as everything else. If you can keep playing a few years with the same team, it can be very rewarding.
As the boys get older, some will drop out and others will move on to other teams. I found that as my son started playing at 14 and 15U, he became a little more like a free agent. We looked for teams that needed his particular skill set and then tried to fill a need. It was a balance between him competing at a higher level yet still playing. This is where an honest assessment of your talent comes in. You play at the highest level that you can so you get better. This means that you are not sitting on the bench on a better team.
Finally, I want to reiterate that getting good grades wound up being the difference between my son playing or not playing in college. |
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14Ubaseballcoach
3 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2017 : 12:19:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
The reality is none of this is really important until 16u. No scout in the US is looking at kids 15 yo and below. Many will filter out from 13u to 16u as the game is more about pitching and boring with low scores. Not as many college contacts as is led to believe. Have a better chance with college contacts from a HS coach. Think of it like this: I have a friend of a friend that knows a guy who may be friends of the guy who walks the dog of the nephew of an amateur scout who may know a friend of a college scout's lawn care guy that may get you in front of the son-in-law of the college scout and so on.
I have to disagree with this somewhat. 15U PG going on right now in Atlanta. I saw scouts from LSU, GT and several other schools looking at 15U players. Saw a team yesterday from Virginia that had a SS committed to Kentucky. An Outfielder committed to Virginia. Not the norm obviously but is not uncommon at all.
Now as far as Academies vs Park Travel teams, I think the biggest difference is some parents will not let their kids play for a Travel Team that plays out of a park. I have seen independent teams and Travel Teams out of a Park compete with Academy teams even at the top level. It is harder to do, you need to have a very good core already established. You can't just expect to find 12-15 Good Major level players show up at a tryout and go compete. Its sad but some parents will not let their kids play for a team out of a Park, Had a situation a few years ago, had a core group ready to start a team, had a field at a local park, most of the players never played at that park, parents would not join the team because it was out of a park. SO we joined an organization changed the name and they showed and paid for the tryout and the name.
We got nothing out of it, we had a very good Major team that year, but the name did not get anyone committed by a college, did not give us an extra win or lose, I do not understand why some of the parents needed an academy name?
Every team is different. Best situation is find good coaches, a good group of players, budget and schedule that fits what you want to spend and get out of it. At 15 and up find a team that has players as good as your son's ability, most on the players should be about the same. |
Edited by - 14Ubaseballcoach on 07/17/2017 14:33:42 |
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bbsis
42 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2017 : 13:31:37
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| heed jaguars comment -- many academies claim a kid played for them as soon as the kid is drafted/committed. i suppose it is not dishonest to claim that if at some point the kid played there but beware -- it might have been at 12U and/or only for a week or two. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2017 : 14:00:42
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quote:
Originally posted by NF1974
I agree with both dgersh22 and Browncat1. Here is my perspective from the father of a current Senior in college. At the earlier ages say before 13U, play with the kids you like and coaches that will work with you. At these earlier ages, the parent connections and fun that you will have together is as much a part of the overall experience as everything else. If you can keep playing a few years with the same team, it can be very rewarding.
As the boys get older, some will drop out and others will move on to other teams. I found that as my son started playing at 14 and 15U, he became a little more like a free agent. We looked for teams that needed his particular skill set and then tried to fill a need. It was a balance between him competing at a higher level yet still playing. This is where an honest assessment of your talent comes in. You play at the highest level that you can so you get better. This means that you are not sitting on the bench on a better team.
Finally, I want to reiterate that getting good grades wound up being the difference between my son playing or not playing in college.
Agree 100%!
Also, if kids have aspirations of playing in MLB I think they should look up a few players from this years draft:
#54: Matt Sauer, RHP, 92 mph, GPA = 3.67, signed for $2.5 Million
#82: Matt Tabor, RHP, 92 mph, GPA = 3.0, was offered $1 Million
Anyone see the braves game on Friday? Opening pitcher Taijuan Walker, hit 93mph before his senior year. He was drafted for $800K...PG lists his GPA at 2.6, I'm thinking it was even lower.
So kids, ask yourself, is not doing your homework worth a couple million?
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2017 : 14:19:43
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| Wonderful advice nf174. Grades are the oft forgotten key element! And from what I understand a D1 will take an excellent player with a 3.9 over an even better player that just scraped through with b's and c's. At the end of the day, if you can't juggle baseball and high school, a school like Vanderbilt doesn't want a kid who likely can't make it through the 1st semester. You are playing baseball to get an education, not the other way around. |
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Bravemom
204 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2017 : 09:15:02
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quote:
Originally posted by 14Ubaseballcoach
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
The reality is none of this is really important until 16u. No scout in the US is looking at kids 15 yo and below. Many will filter out from 13u to 16u as the game is more about pitching and boring with low scores. Not as many college contacts as is led to believe. Have a better chance with college contacts from a HS coach. Think of it like this: I have a friend of a friend that knows a guy who may be friends of the guy who walks the dog of the nephew of an amateur scout who may know a friend of a college scout's lawn care guy that may get you in front of the son-in-law of the college scout and so on.
I have to disagree with this somewhat. 15U PG going on right now in Atlanta. I saw scouts from LSU, GT and several other schools looking at 15U players. Saw a team yesterday from Virginia that had a SS committed to Kentucky. An Outfielder committed to Virginia. Not the norm obviously but is not uncommon at all.
Now as far as Academies vs Park Travel teams, I think the biggest difference is some parents will not let their kids play for a Travel Team that plays out of a park. I have seen independent teams and Travel Teams out of a Park compete with Academy teams even at the top level. It is harder to do, you need to have a very good core already established. You can't just expect to find 12-15 Good Major level players show up at a tryout and go compete. Its sad but some parents will not let their kids play for a team out of a Park, Had a situation a few years ago, had a core group ready to start a team, had a field at a local park, most of the players never played at that park, parents would not join the team because it was out of a park. SO we joined an organization changed the name and they showed and paid for the tryout and the name.
We got nothing out of it, we had a very good Major team that year, but the name did not get anyone committed by a college, did not give us an extra win or lose, I do not understand why some of the parents needed an academy name?
Every team is different. Best situation is find good coaches, a good group of players, budget and schedule that fits what you want to spend and get out of it. At 15 and up find a team that has players as good as your son's ability, most on the players should be about the same.
Yes, I have seen this with other parents who rather play for a weak "ECB" team or a weak academy team then a competitive park team. They want the name. There are MANY weak ECB teams in my age group. It is actually embarrassing how far the ECB name has fallen. I understand at older age groups it may be different. |
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whits23
596 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2017 : 13:29:48
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I say this not to brag but to shed light...i coach out of a park..good fields, lights, they drag it etc so i guess we are a park team. I have also been offered jobs by at least 4 name programs and several others to just change my name to match theirs.
So your kid could and would often have the same coach regardless of where they went. I would worry more about the coach name than the team name or what you want from a coach or team.
I keep cost down and roster smaller than most. I just like to do my own thing and am not trying to pay my mortgage or car payment. I just plain like baseball and coaching.
Now for my plug...15u midway riverbandits whits23@gmail.com i endorse this ad |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2017 : 14:26:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Bravemom
quote:
Originally posted by 14Ubaseballcoach
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
The reality is none of this is really important until 16u. No scout in the US is looking at kids 15 yo and below. Many will filter out from 13u to 16u as the game is more about pitching and boring with low scores. Not as many college contacts as is led to believe. Have a better chance with college contacts from a HS coach. Think of it like this: I have a friend of a friend that knows a guy who may be friends of the guy who walks the dog of the nephew of an amateur scout who may know a friend of a college scout's lawn care guy that may get you in front of the son-in-law of the college scout and so on.
I have to disagree with this somewhat. 15U PG going on right now in Atlanta. I saw scouts from LSU, GT and several other schools looking at 15U players. Saw a team yesterday from Virginia that had a SS committed to Kentucky. An Outfielder committed to Virginia. Not the norm obviously but is not uncommon at all.
Now as far as Academies vs Park Travel teams, I think the biggest difference is some parents will not let their kids play for a Travel Team that plays out of a park. I have seen independent teams and Travel Teams out of a Park compete with Academy teams even at the top level. It is harder to do, you need to have a very good core already established. You can't just expect to find 12-15 Good Major level players show up at a tryout and go compete. Its sad but some parents will not let their kids play for a team out of a Park, Had a situation a few years ago, had a core group ready to start a team, had a field at a local park, most of the players never played at that park, parents would not join the team because it was out of a park. SO we joined an organization changed the name and they showed and paid for the tryout and the name.
We got nothing out of it, we had a very good Major team that year, but the name did not get anyone committed by a college, did not give us an extra win or lose, I do not understand why some of the parents needed an academy name?
Every team is different. Best situation is find good coaches, a good group of players, budget and schedule that fits what you want to spend and get out of it. At 15 and up find a team that has players as good as your son's ability, most on the players should be about the same.
Yes, I have seen this with other parents who rather play for a weak "ECB" team or a weak academy team then a competitive park team. They want the name. There are MANY weak ECB teams in my age group. It is actually embarrassing how far the ECB name has fallen. I understand at older age groups it may be different.
Agreed. Let's just ECB every youth team and let them get their cut for nothing. LOL |
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Lurker
7 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2017 : 17:03:39
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| Often the coaches and leaders of many of these academies have lackluster baseball experience, and are simply entrepreneurs. The park teams are great,but you typically have more of a chance of not getting what you paid for. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2017 : 18:40:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Lurker
Often the coaches and leaders of many of these academies have lackluster baseball experience, and are simply entrepreneurs. The park teams are great,but you typically have more of a chance of not getting what you paid for.
A+++++++ |
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Academies vs Park Travel Teams
