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Il Leonne
11 Posts |
 Posted - 12/09/2016 : 19:12:45
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| I'd like some input on the use of weighted baseballs. My 11 year old is participating in an off season throwing program and really likes to use the weighted balls. He's asked for one for Christmas. Also wants bands and a medicine ball (mind BLOWN). I was thinking a 6 ounce ball wouldn't be too much. Thoughts? |
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RUSemiPro
95 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2016 : 21:42:12
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I have an 11 year old who pitches too, and I wouldn't throw weighted balls. The bands total 100%, if used properly will help, and the medicine ball (we have one) he can use for building his core. We as parents need to protect these young players so they can play at 16,17,18.
If the goal of the weighted ball is velocity, I would hesitate. He would be better off working his core and lower half to generate more power. I would focus more about pitching and location first, velocity will come with time.
My 2 cents, AVOID the weighted baseballs, until he is older, if he becomes a Pitcher Only, then maybe then under professional instruction, but no way at 11 years old. No plastic trophy or chintzy medal is worth your sons arm.
quote:
Originally posted by Il Leonne
I'd like some input on the use of weighted baseballs. My 11 year old is participating in an off season throwing program and really likes to use the weighted balls. He's asked for one for Christmas. Also wants bands and a medicine ball (mind BLOWN). I was thinking a 6 ounce ball wouldn't be too much. Thoughts?
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Edited by - RUSemiPro on 12/09/2016 21:50:37 |
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Zachsdad
60 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2016 : 23:09:32
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If the fear is weighted balls, then don't let them throw a football. There's nothing magical about the weight of a baseball, and he's more likely to injure himself throwing an underweight ball than an overweight ball. There's nothing inherently wrong with weighted balls. Poor mechanics? Yes! Over-use? Yes. My son's 13 and we've used a 10oz ball since he was 9 (bigger kid). It really helps them focus and feel their arm motion. I'm not advocating 100 weighted ball throws every day. But 10-15 throws once or twice per week with proper warm up and proper mechanics seems to have worked well for us.
Yes, definitely on the band program. I think every kid that's serious about baseball should be doing what they can to strengthen the arm and shoulder.
Yes, for velocity, focus should be on the lower half. |
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5TPLAYER
12 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2016 : 07:07:07
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| All balls are weighted, whether it is a 2oz ball, 5oz ball, or 8oz ball. Kids can get arm injuries by throwing a regulation baseball with poor mechanics. However, as stated above, the majority of velocity is generated from utilizing the lower half (i.e. legs/hips) as well as a strong core. With respect to the bands, crossover symmetry is a good tool to use. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2016 : 07:50:16
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The rules I have always used with my son have been:
1. No weights over 20 pounds until the kid is shaving, even if it's just twice a month. In theory by that point his bones have clicked enough that he won't be doing damage.
2. Do not throw anything overhand from October-January....not a baseball or weighted ball or plyoball. If he is a catcher he can work on receiving but after he does he just needs to lay the ball down next to him and NOT throw back to the pitcher. Off season throwing programs for under 14u is not a good idea because the kid arms/shoulders/backs need a recovery period. There are many schools of thought on this but my son was always bigger/taller than his counterparts and the most prone to arm injury because of it. While his teammates went down with growth plate issues he did not. Was it because of the shutdown period, I really don't know for sure, but I think so.
3. Any exercise that uses his own body weight against himself is great for that age, i.e. the bands.
4. Medicine ball drills to increase core strength is very good as well.
5. Plyoballs/weighted balls are good for certain drills to increase arm strength and shoulder strength but should NOT be used in a real throwing motion during the shut down period. |
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bama21
278 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2016 : 12:38:31
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Have used on occasion for warm up, very short distance throws.
If you want to throw harder, then LONG TOSS, LONG TOSS, LONG TOSS. Preferably with a set routine. |
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nastycurve
244 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2017 : 15:35:28
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I was never a fan of weighted balls when my son and his teammates were younger, always believed the best way to get better at doing something was to do it, meaning throw the ball you are going to throw repetitively and competitively. Ultimately, mechanics, core strength, leg drive and arm strength are what create velocity of a thrown ball-exercises that strengthen core, legs and and arms+the right mechanics will help a player throw harder. Proper mechanics with a 5oz ball can be destroyed with a heavier ball, especially if the player is too young to understand the proper throwing program. I think exercise, bands, and long toss are best for younger kids.
My son is a freshman at a mid major D1, and he topped out at 90-91 as a Highschool Senior and is now working a weighted ball program over the winter to try and pick up a few more MPH before the college season begins.
If your son is physically mature and in highschool, I can see someone using weighted balls as a way to increase velo, but remember there are 5-6 different weighted balls and ways you are supposed to use all the balls-follow the program. Just throwing one heavier ball isnt going to get the velo where it needs to be and will probably end up hurting your kid. |
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bluecup
49 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2017 : 20:06:05
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I'm a pitching coach...and a student of all this. For the record, there is absolutely nothing wrong with weighted baseballs. It has been studied by multiple studies, and they are not more injurious.
To believe so would mean that somehow 5oz (baseball weight) is a magic weight. So, footballs, basketballs, softballs, snowballs, dodgeballs, rocks, whiffleballs etc. should never be thrown because they are not 5oz and could hurt your arm.
They are an instrument to work on arm path and quickness/strength. Overweighted balls specifically are great to help develop an efficient arm path. Good article here: http://www.thearmfarm.com/single-post/2016/11/29/Weighted-Balls-Questions-Kinetics-More
In fact, a 5oz baseball technically "weighs more" (force-wise) as velo increase. So, a regular baseball even acts as a weighted baseball as you throw hard. http://www.popularmechanics.com/adventure/sports/a6063/how-the-105-mph-fastball-tests-the-limits-of-the-human-body/
100 MPH pitch "subjects the arm to the same amount of stress as if the pitcher had a 60-pound weight hanging from his hand in that position, Fleisig says."
Since an overweighted ball is thrown slower, the stress on the arm can actually be less.
Moreover, there is nothing that says weight training for prepubescent players is bad. That was an old tale that people believed because it could hurt growth plates (however almost 0 injuries have been shown from weight lifting). In fact, most doctors say it is good as it can protect from injury (note they say the kid should be older than 7 or 8). http://www.webmd.com/parenting/features/is-weight-training-safe-for-kids#1
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2017 : 13:09:28
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quote:
Originally posted by bluecup
I'm a pitching coach...and a student of all this. For the record, there is absolutely nothing wrong with weighted baseballs. It has been studied by multiple studies, and they are not more injurious.
To believe so would mean that somehow 5oz (baseball weight) is a magic weight. So, footballs, basketballs, softballs, snowballs, dodgeballs, rocks, whiffleballs etc. should never be thrown because they are not 5oz and could hurt your arm.
They are an instrument to work on arm path and quickness/strength. Overweighted balls specifically are great to help develop an efficient arm path. Good article here: http://www.thearmfarm.com/single-post/2016/11/29/Weighted-Balls-Questions-Kinetics-More
In fact, a 5oz baseball technically "weighs more" (force-wise) as velo increase. So, a regular baseball even acts as a weighted baseball as you throw hard. http://www.popularmechanics.com/adventure/sports/a6063/how-the-105-mph-fastball-tests-the-limits-of-the-human-body/
100 MPH pitch "subjects the arm to the same amount of stress as if the pitcher had a 60-pound weight hanging from his hand in that position, Fleisig says."
Since an overweighted ball is thrown slower, the stress on the arm can actually be less.
Moreover, there is nothing that says weight training for prepubescent players is bad. That was an old tale that people believed because it could hurt growth plates (however almost 0 injuries have been shown from weight lifting). In fact, most doctors say it is good as it can protect from injury (note they say the kid should be older than 7 or 8). http://www.webmd.com/parenting/features/is-weight-training-safe-for-kids#1
No offense bluecup, BUT, what you say and what parents hear are two different things. They hear you saying weight lifting for 10 year olds is fine...so they set up their kid on a weight lifting machine in their basement with various weights, look at some youtube videos and then have NO IDEA why their kids knees, elbows, and backs are shot.
It says right there in the article that only weight train with a qualified trainer. It also goes onto say that many machines aren't child size and shouldn't be used. Wouldn't it be better to just say only work with bands until they can shave? Is there really such a big plus side to the weight lifting for pre-teens? From where I am sitting about 100 things could go wrong.
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Ross
60 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2017 : 16:59:12
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CaCO3Girl - Are you saying bluecup should dumb down his advice so stupid people can be protected from themselves? Seems a bit much.
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bluecup
49 Posts |
Posted - 01/10/2017 : 16:00:15
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http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/24/phys-ed-the-benefits-of-weight-training-for-kids/?_r=0
Of course kids should be properly supervised/trained, as should adults. But, people don't need to be overly scared of it either...as in "Don't lift weights until you can shave." Bands or other resistance is fine as well. 100 things can go wrong with just about anything kids do. The idea that they can lift pails of water or do farmwork but can lift weights just doesn't make sense (as the article suggests).
See the above article, where leading doctors say it actually can reduce injuries:
"There was a time when children ‘weight trained’ by carrying milk pails and helping around the farm.
“If a kid sits in class or in front of a screen for hours and then you throw them out onto the soccer field or basketball court, they don’t have the tissue strength to withstand the forces involved in their sports. That can contribute to injury.”
Consequently, many experts say, by strength training, young athletes can reduce their risk of injury, not the reverse. “The scientific literature is quite clear that strength training is safe for young people, if it’s properly supervised,” Dr. Faigenbaum says. “It will not stunt growth or lead to growth-plate injuries. That doesn’t mean young people should be allowed to go down into the basement and lift Dad’s weights by themselves. That’s when you see accidents.” The most common, he added, involve injuries to the hands and feet. “Unsupervised kids drop weights on their toes or pinch their fingers in the machines,” he said.
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2017 : 08:02:35
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quote:
Originally posted by bluecup
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/24/phys-ed-the-benefits-of-weight-training-for-kids/?_r=0
Of course kids should be properly supervised/trained, as should adults. But, people don't need to be overly scared of it either...as in "Don't lift weights until you can shave." Bands or other resistance is fine as well. 100 things can go wrong with just about anything kids do. The idea that they can lift pails of water or do farmwork but can lift weights just doesn't make sense (as the article suggests).
See the above article, where leading doctors say it actually can reduce injuries:
"There was a time when children ‘weight trained’ by carrying milk pails and helping around the farm.
“If a kid sits in class or in front of a screen for hours and then you throw them out onto the soccer field or basketball court, they don’t have the tissue strength to withstand the forces involved in their sports. That can contribute to injury.”
Consequently, many experts say, by strength training, young athletes can reduce their risk of injury, not the reverse. “The scientific literature is quite clear that strength training is safe for young people, if it’s properly supervised,” Dr. Faigenbaum says. “It will not stunt growth or lead to growth-plate injuries. That doesn’t mean young people should be allowed to go down into the basement and lift Dad’s weights by themselves. That’s when you see accidents.” The most common, he added, involve injuries to the hands and feet. “Unsupervised kids drop weights on their toes or pinch their fingers in the machines,” he said.
I personally know one former high school football player who was told by his doctor that weight training at a young age DID stunt his growth. That the repetitious squatting with weights compressed the bones in his back. He's now 23 and walks like an old man. Being a 5'6 man is not a fun position to be in. I also know of several older pitchers who had vertebrae problems when they got into late high school, as in fractured vertebrae, and while I don't know for sure what the cause was THEY think it was due to weight training at a young age.
Every parent can do what they want when it comes to their kids but the idea that it has never harmed a kid long term is ridiculous in my opinion. I truly believe this is a better safe than sorry scenario.
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bluecup
49 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2017 : 18:41:30
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Again, everyone can make their own decisions, and I don't have a dog in the fight. But, I don't want parents to be wrongfully scared off of training their kids because of old myths that won't go away despite the near unanimous opinions of pediatricians and trainers.
I will take the Mayo Clinic, the American Academy of Pediatrics and many others over the anecdotal opinion of one doctor who was guessing. The overwhelming majority of official studies conclude that the LACK of strength training is injurious and that weight training cannot stunt growth.
In fact, if anything, it may help growth through loading the bones and promoting denser bones.
https://www.acefitness.org/fitfacts/pdfs/fitfacts/itemid_2682.pdf
"Two of the most common misconceptions are that strength training may stunt the growth of children and that children should not lift weights until they are 12 years old. There is simply
no evidence to support either of these statements. In fact, all of the major fitness and medical organizations in the U.S. recommend strength training for youth, assuming that basic guidelines are adhered to and that appropriate leadership is
present."
http://www.philstar.com/health-and-family/2014/09/09/1366804/does-weight-training-stunt-growth-young-boys
https://www.aap.org/en-us/about-the-aap/aap-press-room/pages/Are-Weights-Safe-for-Kids.aspx
"Parents think that strength training is dangerous for kids, that it stunts growth and requires the help of a professional trainer – but these assumptions are untrue,” said Dr. Metzl, who practices sports medicine at the Hospital for Special Surgery in New York. “Strength training is different from power lifting, and it is safe for kids starting at 8 years old. Because of these misconceptions and the lack of resources available for strength training, most kids just don’t do it. That is part of the reason we’re seeing so many injuries in youth sports – kids’ bodies aren’t prepared." |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2017 : 07:49:17
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quote:
Originally posted by bluecup
Again, everyone can make their own decisions, and I don't have a dog in the fight. But, I don't want parents to be wrongfully scared off of training their kids because of old myths that won't go away despite the near unanimous opinions of pediatricians and trainers.
I will take the Mayo Clinic, the American Academy of Pediatrics and many others over the anecdotal opinion of one doctor who was guessing. The overwhelming majority of official studies conclude that the LACK of strength training is injurious and that weight training cannot stunt growth.
In fact, if anything, it may help growth through loading the bones and promoting denser bones.
https://www.acefitness.org/fitfacts/pdfs/fitfacts/itemid_2682.pdf
"Two of the most common misconceptions are that strength training may stunt the growth of children and that children should not lift weights until they are 12 years old. There is simply
no evidence to support either of these statements. In fact, all of the major fitness and medical organizations in the U.S. recommend strength training for youth, assuming that basic guidelines are adhered to and that appropriate leadership is
present."
http://www.philstar.com/health-and-family/2014/09/09/1366804/does-weight-training-stunt-growth-young-boys
https://www.aap.org/en-us/about-the-aap/aap-press-room/pages/Are-Weights-Safe-for-Kids.aspx
"Parents think that strength training is dangerous for kids, that it stunts growth and requires the help of a professional trainer – but these assumptions are untrue,” said Dr. Metzl, who practices sports medicine at the Hospital for Special Surgery in New York. “Strength training is different from power lifting, and it is safe for kids starting at 8 years old. Because of these misconceptions and the lack of resources available for strength training, most kids just don’t do it. That is part of the reason we’re seeing so many injuries in youth sports – kids’ bodies aren’t prepared."
So what is the difference between strength training and power lifting? Where is the line? In my scenario where the kids growth was stunted he was doing power squats for football. I assume that is power lifting?
Is a dead lift power lifting? Or is what I have been saying about medicine balls, band work, and exercises that use the kids body weight against them rather than a weight over 20 pounds what these articles are discussing? |
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bluecup
49 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2017 : 11:23:54
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Strength training = Progressive resistance, multiple reps. You can start out with body weight or bands and then add weight as you get stronger. Adding weight training isn't the devil. At some point, adding more resistance is necessary to add strength.
Power lifting tends to be more "how much can you lift in one rep?" (ie contest). It's doubtful that even that stunts anyone's growth based on the medical literature. However, I can understand that it's somewhat more dangerous for young kids, due to the maxing out nature of it.
http://www.usapowerlifting.com/newsletter/15/features/features1.html
Most would recommend higher reps with less weight for younger kids.
"You may be questioning the use of higher reps for children compared to adult powerlifters. There is actually a very good reason why higher reps SHOULD be used for prepubescent lifters. Before puberty, the majority of strength gains are neurological in nature. That is, initial strength gains do not come from muscle hypertrophy as they do in adults. Think of a higher rep scheme as a blueprint for what is to come. Higher reps allow children to build a physiological pathway for their technique."
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dad4kids
109 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2017 : 13:26:57
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3GirlFrom where I am sitting about 100 things could go wrong.
Actually, more than a thousand things can go wrong. That's also true with a heavy metal or fiberglass instrument swung at velocities sufficent to inflict serious bodily injury (also known as a baseball bat). Still not a valid reason for non-participation in either activity.
Thanks for posting all the good information, bluecup. Old wives tales often die a slow painful death. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2017 : 15:24:41
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quote:
Originally posted by bluecup
Strength training = Progressive resistance, multiple reps. You can start out with body weight or bands and then add weight as you get stronger. Adding weight training isn't the devil. At some point, adding more resistance is necessary to add strength.
Power lifting tends to be more "how much can you lift in one rep?" (ie contest). It's doubtful that even that stunts anyone's growth based on the medical literature. However, I can understand that it's somewhat more dangerous for young kids, due to the maxing out nature of it.
http://www.usapowerlifting.com/newsletter/15/features/features1.html
Most would recommend higher reps with less weight for younger kids.
"You may be questioning the use of higher reps for children compared to adult powerlifters. There is actually a very good reason why higher reps SHOULD be used for prepubescent lifters. Before puberty, the majority of strength gains are neurological in nature. That is, initial strength gains do not come from muscle hypertrophy as they do in adults. Think of a higher rep scheme as a blueprint for what is to come. Higher reps allow children to build a physiological pathway for their technique."
And there is the problem. You say "Strength Training" and over 50% of parents...if not way more....are thinking weight training with 50 pound weights on either end of the bar. You are in fact talking about bands and resistance and maybe adding on some 10 pound weights for added resistance but you aren't actually talking about a 10 year old doing bench presses are you? |
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bluecup
49 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2017 : 16:40:33
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No CaCOGirl, I'm not talking only about bands and ten pound weights. I'm talking about progressive resistance. Resistance should grow as strength grows over time. I have no issues with supervised bench pressing (especially dumbbells). But for many youngsters pushups or pullups is often more than enough. It depends on the kid and the age and the strength. Artificially limiting it to bands or ten pound weights is not at all what I was saying. I don't think I'm being ambiguous. Stunting growth is NOT a reason to skip strength training. All of the studies that I have quoted say that. None of the studies have said that weight training, at all or in any amount, stunts growth (the advice more has to do with the danger of dropping it on you). Do a google search. You will find that it is a myth, untrue, outdated advice, whatever the right term is.  Anyway, I think everyone here understand what I'm saying. |
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Weighted Baseballs?
