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whits23
596 Posts |
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Goin Deep
140 Posts |
 Posted - 08/05/2009 : 22:43:49
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Now you've REALLY done it....  |
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TAZ980002
831 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2009 : 23:00:39
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| Yes it will. |
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Strike 2
61 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 01:54:21
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I just operated on one kid this morning, he said. At age 12, he tore his ulnar collateral ligament in two. His travel ball coach called 30-something curveballs in a row. He became fatigued. Then he threw one that snapped his elbow.
nuff said. |
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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 08:55:54
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| Guys, You all need to pull this link up and read it. I just read the entire article and all that I can say is WOW. After you all read the article we can begin to discuss it. |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 09:28:50
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This is purely anecdotal, but it was my experience this year that the boys on my son's team that threw the most breaking balls, some as many as 50% of their pitches, required way more time to recover from a tournament weekend than the two pitchers that threw 90% or more fastballs and change ups and only dropped one or two curve balls per inning in there.
They also had poor ball to strike ratios. I think coaches depend on them way too much.
Interesting article, though. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 11:32:28
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I think you can come up with all kinds of scenarios involving individual examples supporting one side or the other. The issue is, two different scientific studies show that curveballs place less stress on the arm than a fastball. I respect Dr. Andrews and if my son ever had to have surgery, he is the one I would have doing it, but, who is to say that the kid in his example would not have had the same thing happen if he had thrown 30 fastballs in a row in that game?
The evidence that ASMI and the other research outfit came up with is not ancedotal. They literaly measured the force placed on the elbow and shoulder. Don't really know how you can argue with it. Also, due to the public's view on the curveball, physicians probably feel a certain amount of concern about endorsing the curveball due to potential law suits - ie "You told me it was OK for my son to throw curveballs, now he needs surgery - it's your fault and I'm suing".
Everyone has their own preconception of the harm this pitch can do and more than likely, no one will change their opinion, but the scientific information can not be ignored. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 11:35:51
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| BTW, on an anecdotal note, last week my son was probably more sore (not hurt) than he ever was after a tournament game. He threw 3 curveballs. Everything else was fastballs. Anyone can come up with an example of whatever it is they wan to prove. |
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12uCoach
357 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 12:24:18
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I am not a doctor nor do I claim to be one, or have I ever done a study about pitching.
Anecdotaly, in High School I have seen what the article discusses. High School coaches who rely overpowering the batter with fastballs on the corner and then use the breaking ball as an out pitch, have pitchers who velocity goes down faster than those who have a better ratio of fastballs to "other pitcher".
I believe, and it is my opinion only, at the younger ages because of muscle and tendon growth, real curve balls are bad because of the stress they do put on the body, but as the player gets older and the growth plates have stopped moving, the stress from a fastball becomes a problem as it wears a player out, like doing to many reps on the weight machine.
JMHO. |
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bambino_dad
119 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 12:56:07
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Oh, I love it, because I concur with the findings of the study. IMHO, fatigue is the number one factor leading to injuries. It's so darn intuitive. You get tired - you're likely to get hurt. Look at the other major sports - soccer, football, basketball and even track and field - all require extensive amounts of physical conditioning before you can even think about participating.
Baseball, traditionally, alone among the major sports, places the least emphasis on physical conditioning - for reasons that itself ought to be examined. It's the baseball players who tryout for the team in so-so condition, who blow it out for a marathon 80 games and then wonder why they're injured. I've seen teams play three games in a single 90deg heat day and take only 15 minutes of light calisthenics - total.
An aspect of the study that I'm not sure was covered is the impact of building leg strength in pitching. I remember Nolan Ryan once said if you have a leg problem - then you'll have an arm problem. And I totally agree with that. Pitchers who use their legs effectively reduce arm stress considerably. But you can't (or won't) use your legs if you're not in shape to do so and taught to do so. I know there are a few drop and drive detractors on this board and elsewhere, but the drop and drive method teaches leg control, thrust and power - an inevitable arm stress reduction.
As baseball parents and coaches we have a responsibility to give the athletics, strength, and conditioning aspects of our sport greater respect and focus than we do now. This study is a step in the right direction to that end. Curveballs? Doesn't seem to be any more of a problem that throwing fastballs if your pitcher is not fatigued. |
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whits23
596 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 14:38:47
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| My son went to a reputable orthopedic last week with the dreaded growth plate injury and when asked what pitches the threw and he responded "fast ball.change up" the doc said "yep change up i just came from a seminar and new findings are change ups are doing damage" could this be true? I have never heard that one |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 17:38:22
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| Not according to the ASMI study. Most stress - fastball, next - curve, next - change. Not sure where the seminar people came up with that. |
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highcheese
71 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 19:59:45
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Great topic to get me fired up again. i have several posts on here saying no to curve balls at a young age. If you want my background i only play a doctor on TV and stayed in a holiday inn express last night. I have pitched my whole life with never an arm problem, through high school, college, other leagues, etc... until 1996, at 32 I snapped my humerous bone in half. Bam, toast, forget about pitching again. i took it upon myself to research and find out everything I could about the whys, and reasons for it happening. My findings were this: the arm is under incredible stress in the pitching motion, the torgue put on everything is immense, a humans muscles will exert tremndous force when told what to do by the brain. All this can have a bad result when not the proper technique is involved, the brain is sending the wrong messages, the entire body is fatigued and firing differently, and there is an intense human competition factor overiding natural processing. The bottom line comes down to conditioning properly, proper technique, sound mental concepts. A case on training, in college i was lifting weights to have the beach body for all the girls, look good in an Izod shirt, and be able to drink beer and eat pizza. I had a trainer approach me after he saw me in the gym and asked what the heck I was doing. He flat out told me the training program I had been doing was going to tear my rotator cuff If I continued to pitch. I took his advice changed my program never tore the rotator cuff, used sport specific training methods. A few months later my buff buddy who did not switch his routine tore his shoulder to shreds. the techniques of pitching are hottly debated too, but if you have sound mechanics, most pitches will not kill you. On the mental side you have to know your limits for your ability level, conditioning level and technique level, sorry to say many humans fall short here.
How does my soap box relate to little kids pitching? Pull the pieces out. Little kids need to be trained, conditioned, and have the correct mental approach to pitching. Incredibily tough thing to do. We as parents and coaches have to watch our pitchers religously. Pitch counts are great but there is a different pitch count for each kid based on the above statements. If he gets tired, pull him, if his technique breaks down, pull him, if his head is not into it, pull him. Take it seriously, it is a frigging baseball game, and look out for the kids best interest. I do not believe in curveballs for kids before 14 (if then) because of the maturity factor. A crappy thrown curveball will create an incredible amount of stress from the shoulder down to the wrist. If a kid thinks he can throw a curveball he will. He will throw it warming up, he will throw it in infield practice when the coach is not watching, he will throw it in a bull pen session, he will throw it from the out field, believe me I have seen it. Coaches, just don't send johnny down to the bull pen to get ready without a plan and supervision. The damage done to the arm in a non game situation can be immense. If you are going to allow a curveball make sure they know how to throw it properly, limit the use, and supervise the practice. When he is 20 and pitching in college he will thank you. There are about five other pitches with varying breaks and speeds which are not as sexy as the curve but much more effective. Kids cannot handle the pitching process by themselves. Final note - if you cannot teach pitching then get a professional to help you. A kids arm is a terrible thing to waste. |
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Alter-Ego
802 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 20:02:25
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The thing that this article does not differentiate betweeen, and most don't discuss, is throwing pitches properly vs improperly. I see more kids having issues when they have improper mechanics or trying to overthrow the ball rather than what type of pitches they throw.
Make kids use proper mechanics. The more the arm gets away from the body, the more pressure it puts on the elbow and shoulder. |
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bigdog
231 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2009 : 09:05:36
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| Improper mechanics and bad form definitely leads to Arm problems. Just ask the pitcher from a highly ranked local team that had Tommy John surgery within last couple of months. |
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ItsjustLLBBall
119 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2009 : 09:47:17
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| Did we have growth plates when we were kids???? If I hear the words Growth Plates again, I may vomit... When you pitch your arm gets sore, this generation of kid is pampered waaaaaaay too much. |
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Reggie
70 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2009 : 14:28:15
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The number of arm injuries in baseball has risen this is a fact. Why?
I think we are seeing more injuries because of the number of games being played without proper rest, more tournaments. Kids are throwing more and more then going to play other positions, I think it isn't as much about curves and sliders as over-use. What is the difference between then and now, we always threw real curve balls, the only difference is we rested more, didnt play more than 2 games in a day and took fall and winter off to play other sports. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2009 : 23:56:13
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| I don't think starting playing travel at 8 or 9 helps. My son played when he was that young, but just rec ball. He did that till he was 12. From 9 to 12, he played maybe 40 games as opposed to 90 (spring and fall). That's about 150 - 200 fewer games. If he pitched every four games, that's 30 - 50 fewer games pitched. Average say 50 pitches per game, that's 1500 - 2500 fewer pitches. Adds up starting that young playing all those extra games. |
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Shut Out
512 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2009 : 08:58:44
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quote:
Originally posted by ItsjustLLBBall
Did we have growth plates when we were kids???? If I hear the words Growth Plates again, I may vomit... When you pitch your arm gets sore, this generation of kid is pampered waaaaaaay too much.
Itsjustllbball; obviously spoken from a parent whose kid has never had arm problems. |
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whits23
596 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2009 : 09:21:50
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quote:
Originally posted by ItsjustLLBBall
Did we have growth plates when we were kids???? If I hear the words Growth Plates again, I may vomit... When you pitch your arm gets sore, this generation of kid is pampered waaaaaaay too much.
we didnt play 60 games a year...are you saying if you take your pitcher in for an x-ray and it shows a fractured growth plate and the kid can barely comb his hair he should just suck it up and get back in there? Kids are also bigger and stronger and throw with more velocity than kids used to but growth plates are still as fragile. I compared the weights of kids on a youth football team 15 years ago vs one current and the biggest kid then would barely be average now |
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Dr. Old School
314 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2009 : 12:06:08
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ItsjustLLBBall,
We did have it back then, we just did not know what to call it. We kept throwing and probably did more damage than we really know. Ignorance of a subject does not make it untrue.
It is like Tommy John Surgeries; it's not that tendons did tear when we were young, just when they did, players either hand to stop throwing or had to change how they threw. Many had to become junkball pitchers. |
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BREAMKING
323 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2009 : 12:43:08
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Ok I assume most on here are coaches and most at least played high school ball. I know you guys remember kids never pitching until high school then going on to be pitchers after high school. I am convinced pitching at young ages does not help you at all when you are older. The major problem with pitching is not many people are meant to be one. My little brother pitched a lot growing up and through school all the time lots and lots of innings. He never had any arm trouble but he just pitched and played first. I feel that with the rubber arm he had he was just meanth to pitch. He picked up wind up from when he first started it and it never changed from that day forward. I think pitchers are born not made. These kids playing other positions does not help at all. I go out and watch a travel tryout. Friday night kid trys out for 2-3 hours makes probably 100-200 throws from all different positions then sunday trys out again and same thing 100-200 more throws. How many coaches take into account practice when it comes to arms. This is where most arms are ruined not the games. There is no way around young kids arms getting hurt though. It will happen to a percentage no matter what as long as people are playing this kinda baseball. Honestly if my kid was a pitcher I would leave him in rec. ball until he was 13. With so many games and practices these kids nowadays never get a rest. More kids do get arms hurt more today than in the past but as everybody thinks you have to play 70 games a season it is gonna happen. I really think the only way to have no risk what so ever of a arm injury is to not play and that would stink...
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oldmanmj
191 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2009 : 22:21:19
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| Yes, no, yes, sometimes, don't agree....so on. Most coaches, especially at the younger ages, have one or two good arms on their teams and they flat wear them out. Don't count pitches, can't tell when a kid is getting fatigued and most kids want to be the "Guy". So they mess around with pitches that create movement, but the coach can't see that it creates stress on the arm. Then he throws him in 3 of the five games in a tournament. This even happens with good teams a the elite level at 11, 12, 13 & 14. We had 5 top flight pitchers on our 12U team. With 3 others that could give us good innings. We count pitches, evaluate mechanics every inning and teach boys to move the ball in and out, up and down along with changing speeds, etc. If you have learned to throw a 12/6 major league curve ball, you can do so with minimal stress and limited usage. Uneducated coaches create the injuries these young men incur, uneducated parents that want there son to be the next Phenom don't know what to watch for. A young man will give his arm to please his parents and coach.....if your son is throwing over 80 pitches every outing before he is in High School then the parent should be stepping in to stop it, especially if he does this 2 to 3 times in a 3 or 4 day span. Nolan Ryan's arm didn't give out, his core-legs, groin and stomach gave out, that is where you pitch from. The arm follows.......the debate continues. |
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TAZ980002
831 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2009 : 09:28:10
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quote:
Originally posted by oldmanmj
Yes, no, yes, sometimes, don't agree....so on. Most coaches, especially at the younger ages, have one or two good arms on their teams and they flat wear them out. Don't count pitches, can't tell when a kid is getting fatigued and most kids want to be the "Guy". So they mess around with pitches that create movement, but the coach can't see that it creates stress on the arm. Then he throws him in 3 of the five games in a tournament. This even happens with good teams a the elite level at 11, 12, 13 & 14. We had 5 top flight pitchers on our 12U team. With 3 others that could give us good innings. We count pitches, evaluate mechanics every inning and teach boys to move the ball in and out, up and down along with changing speeds, etc. If you have learned to throw a 12/6 major league curve ball, you can do so with minimal stress and limited usage. Uneducated coaches create the injuries these young men incur, uneducated parents that want there son to be the next Phenom don't know what to watch for. A young man will give his arm to please his parents and coach.....if your son is throwing over 80 pitches every outing before he is in High School then the parent should be stepping in to stop it, especially if he does this 2 to 3 times in a 3 or 4 day span. Nolan Ryan's arm didn't give out, his core-legs, groin and stomach gave out, that is where you pitch from. The arm follows.......the debate continues.
Great post !! |
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This will start a debate quick
