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TRB
42 Posts |
 Posted - 07/01/2016 : 11:36:00
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| My brother and I got into this discussion and was curious as to what others thought. Do you feel it's necessary or helpful overall for the younger age division kids, 12u and down, to play at the absolute highest level that their skill set will allow them to? Do they gain that much from it? I understand that most high level teams have better coaches etc. I'm asking strictly from a competition standpoint. I attended college on a baseball scholarship and he on a football scholarship. Athletics has changed so much from when we were young that I can't make a comparison between the development of kids then vs the development of kids now. The biggest problem I see on the baseball side of things are mental toughness and focus. Seems that kids have a harder time with failure now and parents have an even harder time allowing them to fail. IMO, the most important developmental factor for young kids is learning how to prepare correctly. Understanding what an approach at the plate is, understanding how to properly field, throw and catch. Most importantly learning to compete and learning what it takes to be successful at anything. I was just curious what the opinion here was. |
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BamaDad
188 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2016 : 12:06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by TRB
My brother and I got into this discussion and was curious as to what others thought. Do you feel it's necessary or helpful overall for the younger age division kids, 12u and down, to play at the absolute highest level that their skill set will allow them to? Do they gain that much from it? I understand that most high level teams have better coaches etc. I'm asking strictly from a competition standpoint. I attended college on a baseball scholarship and he on a football scholarship. Athletics has changed so much from when we were young that I can't make a comparison between the development of kids then vs the development of kids now. The biggest problem I see on the baseball side of things are mental toughness and focus. Seems that kids have a harder time with failure now and parents have an even harder time allowing them to fail. IMO, the most important developmental factor for young kids is learning how to prepare correctly. Understanding what an approach at the plate is, understanding how to properly field, throw and catch. Most importantly learning to compete and learning what it takes to be successful at anything. I was just curious what the opinion here was.
Great second post. Gonna have to go back and find your first one. Anyway, I am going to let my 12yo son read this. I preach the requirement of mental toughness and focus to compete at the highest levels. At that level, physical and athletic ability won't carry you the entire way. We also talk about what it takes to be a true competitor and treating success and failure the same. I use these for life lessons off the playing field as well. It may resonate better with him coming from someone else than from me. It's a lecture from me but instruction for someone else. |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2016 : 12:42:43
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| I think it depends on the boy. Some may have the skill set and athleticism at these ages but still are in it to have fun for the most part. I would be careful to avoid burnout in a kid like that who might have become more serious down the road by pressuring them. Others who are more competitive by nature and feed off the sport playing at the highest level they are capable of will thrive and develop in a tougher environment. The emotional maturity and mental stamina have to also be there for a younger child to be successful on a very competitive team. It has to be the kid's dream, not the parent's. The minute it is a job for the boy instead of a sport you are pushing too hard. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2016 : 13:25:14
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quote:
Originally posted by TRB
My brother and I got into this discussion and was curious as to what others thought. Do you feel it's necessary or helpful overall for the younger age division kids, 12u and down, to play at the absolute highest level that their skill set will allow them to? Do they gain that much from it? I understand that most high level teams have better coaches etc. I'm asking strictly from a competition standpoint. I attended college on a baseball scholarship and he on a football scholarship. Athletics has changed so much from when we were young that I can't make a comparison between the development of kids then vs the development of kids now. The biggest problem I see on the baseball side of things are mental toughness and focus. Seems that kids have a harder time with failure now and parents have an even harder time allowing them to fail. IMO, the most important developmental factor for young kids is learning how to prepare correctly. Understanding what an approach at the plate is, understanding how to properly field, throw and catch. Most importantly learning to compete and learning what it takes to be successful at anything. I was just curious what the opinion here was.
Necessary, absolutely not. Helpful, maybe.
I'm going with the philosophy that until a kid hits around 12u-14u it would actually be helpful for them to play on a lower level team than they are capable of being on. We will see how my theory pans out, perhaps my experience was unique in that I found the lower level teams:
1. Were FAR Cheaper
2. Far more flexible with family conflicts
3. Played closer to home, meaning less hotel bills
4. Provided decent overall instruction
5. Allowed my son to play pretty much every inning
6. Allowed him to understand the concept of people counting on you to come through
7. Allowed him to be a leader on the team, and understand that a leaders job is to encourage not disparage
I have no idea if 5, 6, and 7 would have happened on a higher level team. I will say that after his huge growth spurt he had to pretty much re-learn how to walk (not joking) so he also had to relearn how to hit, run, field, pitch....pretty much he had to relearn everything about how he was suppose to move in baseball. Would it have gone easier if he had solid fundamentals that had been drilled in over and over on a higher team...'eh, maybe, but I don't think so. He had to change his swing and how he pitched due to his arm and leg length increase.
My theory is you have to relearn everything after the huge growth spurt so what's the point in the high dollar team, you know, unless your parents just have money to burn or want to tell their friends that their kid is on Team X...but as far as for the kid...I don't think it's necessary, and for my son I don't think it would have been helpful |
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RoamingCF
77 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2016 : 14:12:45
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Playing at the highest level is important WHEN COMBINED WITH BROAD DEVELOPMENT OF THE PLAYER. I'm not suggesting a RecBall approach (switching positions frequently, picking a line-up out of a hat, etc.), but the importance of playing at highest level is minimized if your child only gets to play OF, or bats low in the lineup, or doesn't pitch much, etc. - that is the wrong result. I find it unfortunate that we pigeon hole kids at such a young age. Greater risk when playing at the higher level.
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ABC_Baseball
90 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2016 : 14:19:39
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My biggest complaint about what I have seen with players in travel baseball is the lack of mental toughness. I’m not talking about with kids 8 or 9 years old. Travel ball and kid pitch is a different animal and everyone has to adjust and encouragement is needed along the way. Sports are competitive and a winner is picked for a reason. Children needs to learn how to compete. Some may be naturally competitive, but parents should also foster that spirit if they are going to let their children play competitive sports.
The biggest way I see parents not letting their kids fail is “excuse making.” By the time a kid hits 11 or 12, they should know what is acceptable and what is not. As someone that wants to push the envelope and play tougher competition in order to spur growth in my child, I can’t stand it when I hear excuses from parents when their kids don’t do well.
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TRB
42 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2016 : 14:28:20
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| First post wasn't impressive at all but I appreciate it! Looking back on it all everything I have done in my life that has been good I can directly relate to the lessons that my dad used baseball to reinforce. It's a great teacher. Roll Tide BTW. |
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BamaDad
188 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2016 : 15:26:36
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quote:
Originally posted by TRB
First post wasn't impressive at all but I appreciate it! Looking back on it all everything I have done in my life that has been good I can directly relate to the lessons that my dad used baseball to reinforce. It's a great teacher. Roll Tide BTW.
Roll Tide. I can only hope that my son feels the same way years from now. |
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TaxiMom
149 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2016 : 16:02:18
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Our experience when my (major level) son was on a team with kids of varying levels (kids who could easily play at major level down to kids who were clearly AA -- this was a team "marketed" to us as a high AAA/majors team) was that 1) my child got overplayed pitching and catching, big time; and 2) my child got frustrated when the lower level kids weren't "doing their jobs" especially when it came to regularly failing to catch a well-thrown ball.
Did he "gain from it?" As this was his first year playing travel, coming from rec, he definitely gained in skills and knowledge from the coaches. But why not find a team where the coaches are good, development is good, AND you're playing with and against other kids that are of your same level? Especially if you're concerned that kids aren't learning how to compete and deal with failure -- best way to do that is to play at your level, IMHO. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2016 : 19:38:03
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quote:
Originally posted by TaxiMom
Our experience when my (major level) son was on a team with kids of varying levels (kids who could easily play at major level down to kids who were clearly AA -- this was a team "marketed" to us as a high AAA/majors team) was that 1) my child got overplayed pitching and catching, big time; and 2) my child got frustrated when the lower level kids weren't "doing their jobs" especially when it came to regularly failing to catch a well-thrown ball.
Did he "gain from it?" As this was his first year playing travel, coming from rec, he definitely gained in skills and knowledge from the coaches. But why not find a team where the coaches are good, development is good, AND you're playing with and against other kids that are of your same level? Especially if you're concerned that kids aren't learning how to compete and deal with failure -- best way to do that is to play at your level, IMHO.
Have to agree with you here. Playing with kids on the same level or better helps more than can be imagined. Playing on a team where the others are struggling to make routine plays does nothing for development and doesn't help the best players get better either. That's dilution.
I personally try to stay away from those parents who always say it's about fun when the team cant even put a point on the score board. |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2016 : 08:23:30
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| ^^^^Yes, and for the kids who work their butts off to make the tough plays, only to have all their hard work thrown away by say, a kid who drops a pop up in the OF with runners on base and they lose...or the pitcher who busts it on the mound only to have a fielder watch the ball go through the legs...this can happen a couple of times but when it happens over and over...they start to get mentally down and that's never good for development. |
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Falco07
7 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2016 : 08:31:01
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| As RoamingCF stated to watch out for...My kid was 'pigeon-holed' at 8U kid pitch. The coach ran the team like it was a major league club. Beware of that at the younger ages (8U-12U)...too young to restrict your kid to OF-only. Talent was pretty equal, but the coach became obsessed with winning. His philosophy was max reps at one position, so after being labeled an outfielder, IF/P chances were basically non-existent. Wouldn't even switch the line-up winning 10-2 in the last inning of a pool play game. |
Edited by - Falco07 on 07/02/2016 09:39:07 |
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BamaDad
188 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2016 : 10:04:59
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| I'm sure all of us have seen the body language of the kids Crazyforbball described above. The pitcher who has pitched his way out of a bases-loaded jam only to have a kid drop a routine fly in the OF. It's hard from them to bounce back from that. When you have stud players on teams with kids who can't make routine plays, it can take a lot out of those players. They begin to hate even going to practice or playing games with the kids they see as liabilities. Kids should "stay in their respective lanes". Good players should play with similar talent and early learners should play with the same. |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2016 : 23:43:13
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| ^^yes Bama goes back to a comment I made somewhere else about dilution of talent...only a couple of true majors teams in reasonable driving distance per region, and if there isn't an opening in your "spot" you just have to suck it up sometimes and deal with a few pop fly droppers... or play say, RF, when you are a stud infielder because the other stud kids playing those spots just don't leave . Tough decisions. To go back to the original question...at younger ages it depends also on what's available regarding how competitive of a team your kid plays on! He may be up for the challenge but the opportunity just may not be available. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2016 : 11:07:20
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| The dilution usually occurs in areas where there are a lot of teams. If you want a lot of reps, play for a lower level team and do not expect anything. The logistics of travel where most major level teams are is a factor. If you are lucky enough to get on a existing major team, do not expect a lot of playing time as the new player. You may even be pigeon holed if they have 12 or more players and only batting 9. You may have to take a chance on an new major team. Look at the Ga Cards 10u for example: 1st year major team that has done more damage without have a big named machine behind them. The way some of teams looking for players are posting, seems like everyone is major or expecting to play major. I see a lot of teams getting a reality check this upcoming playing year and dropping down playing level. |
Edited by - Punishers on 07/03/2016 13:27:38 |
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bfriendly
376 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2016 : 09:23:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
^^^^Yes, and for the kids who work their butts off to make the tough plays, only to have all their hard work thrown away by say, a kid who drops a pop up in the OF with runners on base and they lose...or the pitcher who busts it on the mound only to have a fielder watch the ball go through the legs...this can happen a couple of times but when it happens over and over...they start to get mentally down and that's never good for development.
X3 or 4 here..........As frustrating as it is to watch as parents, you know its tough for the kids on the field.
Kids surrounded by players ready to get to work will do the same..............surround them by kids that dont hustle and goof off, well, what do you expect.
To the OP, There sure is an "Excuse" mentality among many parents these days. The kids of those parent stick out like sore thumbs and give excuses just like mom and dad........ its a direct result of the Nanny state our current country tries to employ. |
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BamaDad
188 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2016 : 16:36:20
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quote:
Originally posted by bfriendly
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
^^^^Yes, and for the kids who work their butts off to make the tough plays, only to have all their hard work thrown away by say, a kid who drops a pop up in the OF with runners on base and they lose...or the pitcher who busts it on the mound only to have a fielder watch the ball go through the legs...this can happen a couple of times but when it happens over and over...they start to get mentally down and that's never good for development.
X3 or 4 here..........As frustrating as it is to watch as parents, you know its tough for the kids on the field.
Kids surrounded by players ready to get to work will do the same..............surround them by kids that dont hustle and goof off, well, what do you expect.
To the OP, There sure is an "Excuse" mentality among many parents these days. The kids of those parent stick out like sore thumbs and give excuses just like mom and dad........ its a direct result of the Nanny state our current country tries to employ.
I have seen first hand how kids who were several levels above some of their teammates eventually began regressing as the season moved along. The quit pushing themselves to get better because it couldn't make up for the less talented kids booting routine grounders or dropping routine pop flys. It's was obvious that some kids were playing at a lower level than they should have been and some were playing over their heads. Parents need to stop blaming others for their kids' shortcomings. As stated above, the kids begin making the same excuses themselves. It's the "Upward" mentality in travel ball that has kids feeling entitled. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2016 : 20:44:34
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quote:
Originally posted by BamaDad
quote:
Originally posted by bfriendly
quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
^^^^Yes, and for the kids who work their butts off to make the tough plays, only to have all their hard work thrown away by say, a kid who drops a pop up in the OF with runners on base and they lose...or the pitcher who busts it on the mound only to have a fielder watch the ball go through the legs...this can happen a couple of times but when it happens over and over...they start to get mentally down and that's never good for development.
X3 or 4 here..........As frustrating as it is to watch as parents, you know its tough for the kids on the field.
Kids surrounded by players ready to get to work will do the same..............surround them by kids that dont hustle and goof off, well, what do you expect.
To the OP, There sure is an "Excuse" mentality among many parents these days. The kids of those parent stick out like sore thumbs and give excuses just like mom and dad........ its a direct result of the Nanny state our current country tries to employ.
I have seen first hand how kids who were several levels above some of their teammates eventually began regressing as the season moved along. The quit pushing themselves to get better because it couldn't make up for the less talented kids booting routine grounders or dropping routine pop flys. It's was obvious that some kids were playing at a lower level than they should have been and some were playing over their heads. Parents need to stop blaming others for their kids' shortcomings. As stated above, the kids begin making the same excuses themselves. It's the "Upward" mentality in travel ball that has kids feeling entitled.
I have seen this too. It's like they start to assimilate into that environment. Some kids can adapt to better playing environment and some can not. Until teams start cutting players for not performing we will see this continue. Then the excuses will not be an issue. We know in time those kids will be weeded out. Only wish it will happen sooner than later. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2016 : 07:44:13
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There is a huge difference in a Major level kid playing with AA kids, that likely wouldn't be helpful and would likely hurt the Major level kid, but a mid Major kid playing with a AAA team can be a really good thing in my opinion.
Punishers, as for "cutting players for not performing"....REALLY!?!?!?!??! We should cut the 9 year old for not performing? I do hope you are talking about when the season is over because if you are talking mid-season cuts...well I suggest you list that in your postings because up until now I've been with you on how a team should be run but I would run far away from any youth level coach that cuts small children for not performing mid season, or because a better kid comes along. These are still children and this is still a game and I think we should all remember that and not treat them like they are 10 year old MLB players. |
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BamaDad
188 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2016 : 09:35:39
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| I'm definitely not a supporter of "cutting" kids from a team mid-season for poor performance. However, I am a huge proponent of cutting kids' playing time due to not performing well. PT is earned in practice. There is pool play PT and bracket play PT. Bracket play PT is earned by performing well in pool play. If all the kids are on the appropriate level, then expectations of those kids for them should be the same or very similar. At the major level, you don't expect errors on routine plays. At the AA level, the team may average an error an inning. So, if the kids are playing on the right level, then there shouldn't be any major surprises. If a major-level kid somehow ends up on a AA team(happens more than you thing),there is a lot of frustration. That kid has to be strong enough mentally not to succumb to the despair, realize that it's not his fault, and hang on until a better opportunity arises. |
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tbaillie2
120 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2016 : 09:45:41
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I have seen good kids 'pulled' down by playing with kids "below" them on talent.
I've seen the really good kids though 'grow' by handling such situations and making those around them better.
Those are the ones one day that will be leaders (on and off the field). |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2016 : 10:18:15
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
There is a huge difference in a Major level kid playing with AA kids, that likely wouldn't be helpful and would likely hurt the Major level kid, but a mid Major kid playing with a AAA team can be a really good thing in my opinion.
Punishers, as for "cutting players for not performing"....REALLY!?!?!?!??! We should cut the 9 year old for not performing? I do hope you are talking about when the season is over because if you are talking mid-season cuts...well I suggest you list that in your postings because up until now I've been with you on how a team should be run but I would run far away from any youth level coach that cuts small children for not performing mid season, or because a better kid comes along. These are still children and this is still a game and I think we should all remember that and not treat them like they are 10 year old MLB players.
End of season cuts of course. I am all for fairness, but mid season weed out will happen naturally as those kids see limited playing time. This should occur starting age 12. Better kids will come along, that's life, there is always someone better and attrition happens. |
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TRB
42 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2016 : 11:22:38
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quote:
Originally posted by tbaillie2
I have seen good kids 'pulled' down by playing with kids "below" them on talent.
I've seen the really good kids though 'grow' by handling such situations and making those around them better.
Those are the ones one day that will be leaders (on and off the field).
Agreed on the last point.
I guess the line has been blurred on development of a team and development of an individual as a player. Baseball is a mental game above all else. The guys who excel at it are the guys who can focus on every single pitch regardless of what happened the pitch before. I hate cliche's and baseball is full of them, but "Doing YOUR job" has been lost somewhat at the youth level. I've always felt that a coach should coach to a standard. There has to be a baseline of expectation that everyone on the field is held to as a team. Then, from there you accept the physical mistakes because that is part of it. It's a game of failure, and make sure the kids know that and learn from it. Mental errors should be unacceptable, and your "studs" on the team should have less wiggle room then the average ones. You treat everyone fairly, but not the same. I can see both sides of the argument on if playing down or up helps or hurt. At the end of the day, baseball is an individual sport played by a team. With that being the case, if the focus is placed on every kid doing their job to the best of their ability I don't understand how Johnny missing a pop fly hurts the development of little stud Jimmy. |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2016 : 11:45:20
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| Agree with you Bama 100%. Another big problem with "playing down" is the development of bad habits (perfect example..an infielder knows a certain kid can't handle a hard thrown ball so he starts to lob the ball to said kid). Now the correct response would be always throw as hard and fast as you can and if the kid on the receiving end drops it or can't handle it, it's on him. However on younger teams, player wants to WIN and at some point will adjust his plays to accommodate the weak guy to avoid an anticipated error. Fast forward to the next seasons tryouts..is he going to instantly throw hard and solid again without thinking about it when trying to make that majors team? Maybe but don't want to see any of this happen in the 1st place!!! |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2016 : 13:56:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
Agree with you Bama 100%. Another big problem with "playing down" is the development of bad habits (perfect example..an infielder knows a certain kid can't handle a hard thrown ball so he starts to lob the ball to said kid). Now the correct response would be always throw as hard and fast as you can and if the kid on the receiving end drops it or can't handle it, it's on him. However on younger teams, player wants to WIN and at some point will adjust his plays to accommodate the weak guy to avoid an anticipated error. Fast forward to the next seasons tryouts..is he going to instantly throw hard and solid again without thinking about it when trying to make that majors team? Maybe but don't want to see any of this happen in the 1st place!!!
But again, you are talking about a Majors kid playing with a AA kid...it's apples and oranges to a Majors kid playing AAA.
Scenario A is why I took my kid out of rec ball, he was pulling his throws so Johnny could actually catch the ball on 1B. But I also believe as tbaallie2 said, by playing on a slightly lower team my son learned a lot of valuable lessons by learning how to handle the rough situations and is viewed as a leader on and off the field.
Playing slightly below his skill level gave him the chance to be a leader, and gave him confidence. When you are down by 1 with 2 runners on in the last inning with 2 outs he's the kid his team would want up to bat...that was a great way to grow up in baseball. |
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SoxIn7
42 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2016 : 16:06:45
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Agree with CaCo.
One other thing to consider: If parents push and push and push, especially at the lower age groups, chances of burnout increase tremendously. |
Edited by - SoxIn7 on 07/05/2016 16:12:18 |
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Kids playing the highest level
