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Punishers
688 Posts |
 Posted - 05/13/2016 : 10:24:33
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Had a good conversation with a parent last night at her sons game. She spoke of this development thing she is starting to hear a lot from coaches and academy's. Keeping in mind that she played college basketball and may have a more competitive mind than most.
She said development comes from training/practice and not from game play. Game play is for showing your development. If coaches are trying to develop during game play, they were not prepared to begin with. Sounds like a sales pitch.
I totally agree with her.
What do you guys think? |
Edited by - Punishers on 05/13/2016 10:25:39 |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2016 : 11:10:04
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I'll play the word game!
You learn your skills in practice/training....how to hit, how to approach the ball, what to do it in certain situations with the ball. Oddly enough the rules change on what to do in a game on a nearly yearly basis. i.e. everyone in 9u runs on a passed ball. 17u only run on SOME passed balls. The game changes, your training must change to adapt.
You show that training DURING the games. Many issues won't come up in practice, it takes live games/scrimmages to see a wide variety of the issues that can and will come up. If you screw them up on the field during the game guess what you will be practicing next week ;- )
Once you can consistently show what you have been trained to do in game situations THAT is called development. |
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ballsandbats
85 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2016 : 11:24:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
Had a good conversation with a parent last night at her sons game. She spoke of this development thing she is starting to hear a lot from coaches and academy's. Keeping in mind that she played college basketball and may have a more competitive mind than most.
She said development comes from training/practice and not from game play. Game play is for showing your development. If coaches are trying to develop during game play, they were not prepared to begin with. Sounds like a sales pitch.
I totally agree with her.
What do you guys think?
Our head coach thinks games are a necessary evil. Playing games makes you better at playing games. Practice and training make you better at baseball. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2016 : 11:48:29
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I partially agree with her.
Development occurs in practice AND games. For a player to truly develop, he must apply his training in game situations, so for me, the complete development takes place in both.
Training takes place in practice, but training is a component of development. To develop a player, he must be given the opportunity to execute.
There are OUTSTANDING showcase and practice players. Studs in practice and duds in games. They lack the mental aspect to apply and execute their training. The only way to provide that "full circle" development, is to execute in games.
Don't confuse the terms training and development. That's like saying you develop all your life skills in school and it ends there. |
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ABC_Baseball
90 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2016 : 12:10:58
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| I think some of development has to be proven in game. A kid can throw strikes all day to a catcher, but when its real and they are on the mound, things change. Same for hitting. The training and work they put in before games is part of it, but true experience isn't gained until you have success during game time. You could pitch and hit every other day all winter long. While it will make you better technically, if you don't get the chance to put it to test on the proving grounds, it will not matter. I guess I think of it like stages of testing (alpha vs beta). The beta test comes in game, it has to pass real world test before you know its good. There are things there you just can't simulate anywhere else. |
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hshuler
1074 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2016 : 13:47:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
Had a good conversation with a parent last night at her sons game. She spoke of this development thing she is starting to hear a lot from coaches and academy's. Keeping in mind that she played college basketball and may have a more competitive mind than most.
She said development comes from training/practice and not from game play. Game play is for showing your development. If coaches are trying to develop during game play, they were not prepared to begin with. Sounds like a sales pitch.
I totally agree with her.
What do you guys think?
Totally agree...and both parts should work if it's true development. You get better in practice, not games...but you have to be able to execute in games/when it matters. That's the proof! |
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RoamingCF
77 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2016 : 14:54:43
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Effective practice and training = skill development. There is, however, "situational" development that takes place during game situation. Knowing when as a C you HAVE to block everything, as an OF playing deep enough with two outs, good secondary leads on bases and reading OF depth to get a good jump, etc. There are game situations that absolutely contribute to development.
Where I see teams struggle is NOT having effective practices or coaching those learning moments during games. Many (paid included) coaches don't drill catchers correctly (blocking), don't correct poor footwork during infield practice, rarely spend enough time on base-running, don't teach how to open hips on ball over head in OF. And few know how to teach hitting approach.
Net net...with all the tournament play and need to win (or even just get in the right "gold" bracket), most kids do not get the development "promised", either at practice or in games. |
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ballsandbats
85 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2016 : 15:25:55
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quote:
Originally posted by hshuler
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
Had a good conversation with a parent last night at her sons game. She spoke of this development thing she is starting to hear a lot from coaches and academy's. Keeping in mind that she played college basketball and may have a more competitive mind than most.
She said development comes from training/practice and not from game play. Game play is for showing your development. If coaches are trying to develop during game play, they were not prepared to begin with. Sounds like a sales pitch.
I totally agree with her.
What do you guys think?
Totally agree...and both parts should work if it's true development. You get better in practice, not games...but you have to be able to execute in games/when it matters. That's the proof!
I'd put it this way: development as a Baseball PLAYER requires training and games. Learning baseball doesn't require games. Learning to play it does. One way playing affects learning (training) is that playing games gets you better in tune with how to train to become better playing games. (If that makes sense.) At the end of the day, I think we are all talking the same thing. Tomato, Tomato. On a similar note and an extension of this, have you all run into the coaches who never really played the game, but know it pretty darn well? Would you entrust your kid to such a coach? I don't believe I would because I think you get more from someone who has been through it. But I've seen some pretty remarkable instruction and management from people who learned the game by watching it. Kinda like when the Marlins hired Dan Jennings. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2016 : 16:05:23
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You all make valid points. No substitute for game experience. I've seen way too many practice studs/game dudes. I think there is a psyhcological aspect as well. Mental excitement can make you forget everything you trained for.
Breakdown to Development:
75% training
10% game play
15% mental
I may be off a bit, but not by much. I would like to include situational with training as well. I can be learned in practice. |
Edited by - Punishers on 05/13/2016 17:33:23 |
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bfriendly
376 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2016 : 06:22:03
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You folks may hear me refer to Golf sometimes, but this topic is right up the "Golf Analysis" alley. Its the mental approach and I totally agree with what you all are talking about when it comes time to execute(GAME TIME).............you have to let it go and let it happen.
When its time to play, you cannot think about anything you worked on during practice, other than one or two "keys" you developed. But those keys must trigger or bring to life a "Feeling" you "Developed" during practice.
Mental awareness of the situation at hand comes into play more and more as these kids get older. Maybe I am pushing it, but I feel even at 9 or 10u, they should be learning situation and what to do when the ball comes to them either on the ground line drive, pop up etc. Same with each situation as it changes with batting...
With all that said, you had better be learning during Game Time too, but it is not the time to practice |
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hshuler
1074 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2016 : 10:11:58
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| College coach used to say "you don't practice during the test!" You prepare and study so when it's test time/game time, you're ready and prepared to ace it! |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2016 : 22:34:45
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quote:
Originally posted by hshuler
College coach used to say "you don't practice during the test!" You prepare and study so when it's test time/game time, you're ready and prepared to ace it!
Highly recommended! |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2016 : 21:40:43
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| My opinion...development means knowledgeable instruction in ALL aspects of the game. ..then you put it into action in the game. A lot of this depends on headsiness of the player...the best practice reps need to be put into action in split second decisions in live play. But development gives serious players the serious chance to be the best they can be! Just my opinion! |
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bsblfan
14 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2016 : 07:48:25
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| Yogi Berra said baseball is 90% mental and the other half is physical. While his math might have been off, he was right! The game is played on the field and it's as much mental as physical. You can't get that taking reps in practice; you have to play the game. In my opinion, coaches and programs with this attitude are only looking to carry as many kids as they can get away with, so they can make more money. My advice is to find a competitive team where you will get practice AND playing time. Spend any extra money on private instruction. |
Edited by - bsblfan on 05/16/2016 09:35:23 |
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sebaseball
101 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2016 : 09:03:37
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IMO, playing the game is just as important as skill development in practice. It takes both to fully develop into a ball player. You can get practices close to game speed, but you can't replicate game intensity & pressure in a practice setting. Those snap decisions & actions that have immediate consequences of out or safe only happen in games. That pressure of being at the plate with the bases juiced and two outs, down a run doesn't happen in practice. Being on the mound where throwing one ball loses you the game only happens during game play. Yes, you have to put your work in during practice (and lots of it) to develop the necessary fundamental skills it takes to be successful. But you then have to develop the skill to translate it to game play. The goal and ultimate outcome measure isn't to practice the game, but to PLAY the game; play it better than your opponent and win. Players have to develop the skill to function at a high level in game play.
Having said that though, I agree that all out coaching and trying to teach fundamental skills in the middle of a game only shows that you didn't do your job as a coach during practice. I'm a firm believer in giving little cues from time to time, but during a game, they are who they are and you gotta try to get the best out of what you have to work with at that moment. As a coach, you can take note of what needs improvement and then work on that during subsequent practice sessions. Practice and games go hand in hand and it takes both to fully develop. |
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nastycurve
244 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2016 : 11:17:09
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My breakdown of this going through the years(mine is graduating this year):
Age 3-8: lots of team practice with fundamentals, mental/situational approach - games are played to see how the development is going.
Age 9-14: In addition to team practice, you work individually and play a LOT of games. Game experience is key. Big difference between fielding, hitting and pitching in practice vs a real game. Throw in playing games against top tier competition and you continue your development into a ball player. If you cant perform "in game" then you are not an athlete. I can teach my mom proper mechanics, doesn't mean she will hit it out the infield. Got to produce if you want to keep playing.
Age 15-18: You train individually or small group more than anything. Practice becomes the place you show your coach you can play and deserve the spot(travel and HS) and games are where you compete and everything comes together. Games are also used as tryouts for the next level.
When it comes to playing at the next level, no one cares about what you do for your current team, its about what you can do for their team. So keep working and developing until you get to where you want(middle school, HS, college, pros, hall of fame, etc.) |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2016 : 12:21:25
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quote:
Originally posted by nastycurve
My breakdown of this going through the years(mine is graduating this year):
Age 3-8: lots of team practice with fundamentals, mental/situational approach - games are played to see how the development is going.
Age 9-14: In addition to team practice, you work individually and play a LOT of games. Game experience is key. Big difference between fielding, hitting and pitching in practice vs a real game. Throw in playing games against top tier competition and you continue your development into a ball player. If you cant perform "in game" then you are not an athlete. I can teach my mom proper mechanics, doesn't mean she will hit it out the infield. Got to produce if you want to keep playing.
Age 15-18: You train individually or small group more than anything. Practice becomes the place you show your coach you can play and deserve the spot(travel and HS) and games are where you compete and everything comes together. Games are also used as tryouts for the next level.
When it comes to playing at the next level, no one cares about what you do for your current team, its about what you can do for their team. So keep working and developing until you get to where you want(middle school, HS, college, pros, hall of fame, etc.)
Kudos - nastycurve. It's still a performance based sport. You have to earn it if you want it. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2016 : 12:27:19
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quote:
Originally posted by bsblfan
Yogi Berra said baseball is 90% mental and the other half is physical. While his math might have been off, he was right! The game is played on the field and it's as much mental as physical. You can't get that taking reps in practice; you have to play the game. In my opinion, coaches and programs with this attitude are only looking to carry as many kids as they can get away with, so they can make more money. My advice is to find a competitive team where you will get practice AND playing time. Spend any extra money on private instruction.
Yogi is right. Speaking from experience, it gets to a point where everyone is skilled and athletic, but mentally it's how they can handle the pressure and keep performing. |
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Renegade44
211 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2016 : 14:49:00
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<<Age 15-18: You train individually or small group more than anything. Practice becomes the place you show your coach you can play and deserve the spot(travel and HS) and games are where you compete and everything comes together. Games are also used as tryouts for the next level.>>
You train individually or small groups more than anything. "Real" practice (which begins in May) becomes the place you show your showcase/travel coach you can play and deserve the spot. HS is where you put on a uniform and watch the chosen booster crowd and coach's kid pretend to play ball and glam it up on Friday night. HS practice is where you work your tail off (preparing for showcase/tournament season)while the chosen crowd goof off and work at rec ball level drills. Tournament/Showcase games are where you get to compete and show everything comes together. HS games are where you watch the chosen booster crowd and coach kid make a mockery of the entire process.
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hshuler
1074 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2016 : 16:56:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Renegade44
<<Age 15-18: You train individually or small group more than anything. Practice becomes the place you show your coach you can play and deserve the spot(travel and HS) and games are where you compete and everything comes together. Games are also used as tryouts for the next level.>>
You train individually or small groups more than anything. "Real" practice (which begins in May) becomes the place you show your showcase/travel coach you can play and deserve the spot. HS is where you put on a uniform and watch the chosen booster crowd and coach's kid pretend to play ball and glam it up on Friday night. HS practice is where you work your tail off (preparing for showcase/tournament season)while the chosen crowd goof off and work at rec ball level drills. Tournament/Showcase games are where you get to compete and show everything comes together. HS games are where you watch the chosen booster crowd and coach kid make a mockery of the entire process.
Renegade - I really hate it for your kid but you are definitely my favorite poster. LoL |
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sebaseball
101 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2016 : 18:28:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Renegade44
You train individually or small groups more than anything. "Real" practice (which begins in May) becomes the place you show your showcase/travel coach you can play and deserve the spot. HS is where you put on a uniform and watch the chosen booster crowd and coach's kid pretend to play ball and glam it up on Friday night. HS practice is where you work your tail off (preparing for showcase/tournament season)while the chosen crowd goof off and work at rec ball level drills. Tournament/Showcase games are where you get to compete and show everything comes together. HS games are where you watch the chosen booster crowd and coach kid make a mockery of the entire process.
Not all HS programs are that way. If yours is, maybe look to transfer? Why suffer through four years of that? |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2016 : 22:34:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Renegade44
<<Age 15-18: You train individually or small group more than anything. Practice becomes the place you show your coach you can play and deserve the spot(travel and HS) and games are where you compete and everything comes together. Games are also used as tryouts for the next level.>>
You train individually or small groups more than anything. "Real" practice (which begins in May) becomes the place you show your showcase/travel coach you can play and deserve the spot. HS is where you put on a uniform and watch the chosen booster crowd and coach's kid pretend to play ball and glam it up on Friday night. HS practice is where you work your tail off (preparing for showcase/tournament season)while the chosen crowd goof off and work at rec ball level drills. Tournament/Showcase games are where you get to compete and show everything comes together. HS games are where you watch the chosen booster crowd and coach kid make a mockery of the entire process.
Wow! I have heard of these type of things going on, but never knew anyone who went thru it. And high school coaches are wondering why some of the best players are sticking with just showcase teams to play at PG events and skipping playing high school baseball all together. It just sucks. Transferring is not as easy as people make it. Unless you go to a private school which is more money. It should be a requirement that a high school coaches kid is not able to play on a team that his dad coaches. Boosters are usually parents who want to see their kid play at the expense of better players. The whole thing stinks.
I am almost at the point that it is time to remove athletics from high schools and make all sports performance based only. I hate politics in sports. |
Edited by - Punishers on 05/17/2016 22:50:11 |
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LFconcessions
29 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2016 : 07:07:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Renegade44
You train individually or small groups more than anything. "Real" practice (which begins in May) becomes the place you show your showcase/travel coach you can play and deserve the spot. HS is where you put on a uniform and watch the chosen booster crowd and coach's kid pretend to play ball and glam it up on Friday night. HS practice is where you work your tail off (preparing for showcase/tournament season)while the chosen crowd goof off and work at rec ball level drills. Tournament/Showcase games are where you get to compete and show everything comes together. HS games are where you watch the chosen booster crowd and coach kid make a mockery of the entire process.
I hear ya Renegade. New coach (again) this year at my sons HS, yet many of the same challenges that contributed to the turnover of the last two coaches remain. I remember seeing the job posting from the AD, and one of the qualifications was.... Ability to communicate with dugout club.
We cheer on the team... from a far.
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Edited by - LFconcessions on 05/18/2016 08:30:26 |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2016 : 08:19:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by Renegade44
<<Age 15-18: You train individually or small group more than anything. Practice becomes the place you show your coach you can play and deserve the spot(travel and HS) and games are where you compete and everything comes together. Games are also used as tryouts for the next level.>>
You train individually or small groups more than anything. "Real" practice (which begins in May) becomes the place you show your showcase/travel coach you can play and deserve the spot. HS is where you put on a uniform and watch the chosen booster crowd and coach's kid pretend to play ball and glam it up on Friday night. HS practice is where you work your tail off (preparing for showcase/tournament season)while the chosen crowd goof off and work at rec ball level drills. Tournament/Showcase games are where you get to compete and show everything comes together. HS games are where you watch the chosen booster crowd and coach kid make a mockery of the entire process.
Wow! I have heard of these type of things going on, but never knew anyone who went thru it. And high school coaches are wondering why some of the best players are sticking with just showcase teams to play at PG events and skipping playing high school baseball all together. It just sucks. Transferring is not as easy as people make it. Unless you go to a private school which is more money. It should be a requirement that a high school coaches kid is not able to play on a team that his dad coaches. Boosters are usually parents who want to see their kid play at the expense of better players. The whole thing stinks.
I am almost at the point that it is time to remove athletics from high schools and make all sports performance based only. I hate politics in sports.
Have to disagree with you. For 90%+ of the high school kids the football team, baseball team, track team is just about playing a high school sport. You get to stay out of trouble after school, you get a Varsity letter for your jacket, you get an instant group of friends that are on your schedule, you get your picture in the year book, and you can show your kids...yup, that was my team.
Not everything in sports is about making it to the next level, sometimes it's just about being a kid. |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2016 : 11:27:27
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| Renegade..sorry for your son but hilarious posts. Thank goodness for travel ball, right??? And this illustrates EXACTLY why travel ball has become what it has. It has its issues too of course but imagine if the truly talented players were totally at the mercy of some of these high school scenarios to make it to the next level? How much talent would go unnoticed??? At least in travel if you really have the tools the teams will find you and your hard work (usually! Right team...right coaches assumed) will pay off. No wonder scouts completely bypass high schools. It's too bad really as not all the true ballers can afford high level travel. |
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Punishers
688 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2016 : 12:21:39
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Punishers
quote:
Originally posted by Renegade44
<<Age 15-18: You train individually or small group more than anything. Practice becomes the place you show your coach you can play and deserve the spot(travel and HS) and games are where you compete and everything comes together. Games are also used as tryouts for the next level.>>
You train individually or small groups more than anything. "Real" practice (which begins in May) becomes the place you show your showcase/travel coach you can play and deserve the spot. HS is where you put on a uniform and watch the chosen booster crowd and coach's kid pretend to play ball and glam it up on Friday night. HS practice is where you work your tail off (preparing for showcase/tournament season)while the chosen crowd goof off and work at rec ball level drills. Tournament/Showcase games are where you get to compete and show everything comes together. HS games are where you watch the chosen booster crowd and coach kid make a mockery of the entire process.
Wow! I have heard of these type of things going on, but never knew anyone who went thru it. And high school coaches are wondering why some of the best players are sticking with just showcase teams to play at PG events and skipping playing high school baseball all together. It just sucks. Transferring is not as easy as people make it. Unless you go to a private school which is more money. It should be a requirement that a high school coaches kid is not able to play on a team that his dad coaches. Boosters are usually parents who want to see their kid play at the expense of better players. The whole thing stinks.
I am almost at the point that it is time to remove athletics from high schools and make all sports performance based only. I hate politics in sports.
Have to disagree with you. For 90%+ of the high school kids the football team, baseball team, track team is just about playing a high school sport. You get to stay out of trouble after school, you get a Varsity letter for your jacket, you get an instant group of friends that are on your schedule, you get your picture in the year book, and you can show your kids...yup, that was my team.
Not everything in sports is about making it to the next level, sometimes it's just about being a kid.
Sounds like a social club. Not a lot of performance happening. You can and will make new friends. If you are a performer, you will leave your friends behind (I know this first hand). Yearbook picture or PG profile? The first time a scout shows interest, that is your first indication of next level prospect. Varsity letters mean nothing at that point. You will have to keep training and performing at a high level to keep that interest. There is a progression path. High school to College, College to Pro.
Granted, travel baseball is a pricey sport and some great players will get priced out of playing due to income limitations. It is literally an investment in your kid. Unless you like to invest for fun and not returns. Personally, I would hate to see my kid caught up in a high school situation like that. Schools have low standards for athletics, no federal money for it. Times have changed. When boosters are involved, it is no longer about the performance, it is a business. |
Edited by - Punishers on 05/18/2016 19:24:50 |
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What is Development?
