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jaguars18
245 Posts |
 Posted - 05/02/2016 : 18:16:31
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| When a team pays a gate fee and an event is rained out after day 1 why do directors refuse to refund half the gate fee when its based on 2 days? |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2016 : 08:51:27
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| Because they had to rent the fields for those two days, regardless of if the event got rained out. |
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Renegade44
211 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2016 : 13:19:58
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| Baloney. They get a credit to a future date in the event of rain out. The parks make the call on the the rainout situation in many cases. |
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bfriendly
376 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2016 : 20:36:24
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quote:
Originally posted by jaguars18
When a team pays a gate fee and an event is rained out after day 1 why do directors refuse to refund half the gate fee when its based on 2 days?
Might not be all directors, but it sounds like the one you ran into did that.
Surely different organizations will have different policies that also may change with different events.
Did they have clear rules or policies for rain outs or were you guys caught off guard?
I "Heard" that the directors could have cancelled the wood bat tourney last weekend after the two game pool play on Saturday and kept all the money.
The fields were soaked and had big puddles beside the bases.....They had the drying agents available and a few tools, but basically No Crew to get it done.
I was one of several parents who came out and helped get the field ready to play Even though we were delayed about 1.5 hrs, the entire bracket was played so props to Grand Slam and the director there.
I am hoping you experienced the exception jag, not the norm. Does this happen a lot?
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2016 : 07:43:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Renegade44
Baloney. They get a credit to a future date in the event of rain out. The parks make the call on the the rainout situation in many cases.
I have been apart of more than one fundraiser tourney where our team had to set up the fields, concession stand, get parents to collect at the gate...etc.
SOME parks require payment of the fields in advance, if it rains there are no refunds. |
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jaguars18
245 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2016 : 07:57:14
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It did happen but was more of a question in general. When they charge a TEAM gate it is to cover 2-3 days depending on when it starts. I am not arguing whether a tourney should or should not get played due to rain but if they should refund part of parents money since they are paying for more than one day. Team budget money for tourney that is kept after 2 games is one thing but parent money which most teams collect on game day to turn in is another.
I think we all know the team gate fee is a way to jack up price as most every park we play at you could get into and watch the game without going thru a gate anyway LOL |
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jaguars18
245 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2016 : 08:05:42
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| better than directors not grooming field or even showing up to look at fields like ours did. But you get what you pay for so stick with the name organizations not the no names. TC usually gives some sort of token refund or credit but it has to be bad for them to get rained out as too much money at stake |
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lowandoutside
69 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2016 : 09:58:54
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| All the team's entry fees, likely $300+ per team, should have paid to rent the fields. Not returning the gate fee is just flat out wrong in my opinion. These organizations and even the "fundraiser" events make plenty of money of entry fees and concessions. |
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Gapper
64 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2016 : 11:25:52
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| It is kind of like the "3 GAME GUARANTEE" everyone puts out there, but if you only get in 2 games and the weather hits then they keep ALL of your entry fee. It is more like a 2 game guarantee and we hope to get you a 3rd pending the weather. |
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sebaseball
101 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2016 : 13:00:30
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I too have some experience in tournaments/concessions. The team fee covers the field rental and umpires (balls too if those are provided for you). The gate is the profit for the tournament organizer. I agree that not refunding the rained out portion of the pre-paid team gate fee is bad business.
Concessions though, can be a healthy revenue generator or it can be a break even or even a loss proposition. I've run the concessions at a few 20-25 team tournaments as a fundraiser for our team and when you aren't doing it week in and week out where unused inventory can roll to the next event, it's really hard to accurately gauge what you'll need. Even worse if you get rained out..... Don't get me wrong, we made a little money, but for the upfront cost, time & effort it took to run the concessions, it wasn't really worth it in the end. I'm sure there's good money to be made in it for folks that get it down pat, but it's not an automatic money machine. At least, that was my experience. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2016 : 14:38:56
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| I guess I am in the minority. It sounds like this was a low end tourney, probably very cheap, that charged a gate fee that was apparently collected the day of the tourney from the parents. I agree with sebaseball that the concession stand is a hit or miss and apparently they missed out on a whole day of sales. I'm not surprised that no money was refunded. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2016 : 14:54:31
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Concessions, like retail, is for suckers. There is NOOOOO money in it unless you are;
A. Churning HIGH volume of beverage sales, water in particular
B. Charging astronomical prices such as they do at professional events
Concessions are more to have for the convenience for the attendees. The little profit to be had is hardly worth the effort. |
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lowandoutside
69 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2016 : 15:19:39
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
I guess I am in the minority. It sounds like this was a low end tourney, probably very cheap, that charged a gate fee that was apparently collected the day of the tourney from the parents. I agree with sebaseball that the concession stand is a hit or miss and apparently they missed out on a whole day of sales. I'm not surprised that no money was refunded.
Where did it say this was a low end tournament? I believe Jaguars18 stated he was posting the question without specifics. And, even if it was very cheap tournament, it is a very poor business practice to not refund a prepaid gate that was based on a two day tournament but only one day was paid. As sebaseball stated, the tournament fees should've covered the field rental. The gate is the profit. So, they kept the profit and screwed their customers. That's a good way to guarantee people taking their business elsewhere. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2016 : 15:50:13
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Honestly, I don't get the big deal. It's part of playing in tournaments. What you are talking about is really peanuts anyway...
What does a team pay in advance for gate fees? $200 or so? If there are as few as 12 players on a team, that's $16.67 per player. If it's one day you all are moaning about, it's $8.34. Are you really expecting a TD to hand out $8.34 per player for all those teams? Come on. There are far more important things to worry about.
Don't forget, there was much planning, organizing, setting up, showing up to what games are played, with a staff, whether the games were played on the 2nd day or not. All the preparation was done regardless. All the time spent trying to get the fields ready for play on the 2nd day. All the time spent coordinating with and communicating to coaches. Most of these TDs do these tournaments for a living. Should they not make any money at all? Aren't you willing to put in your $8.34 to keep the tournaments coming around?
Sorry, but I think this is a little nitpicky. |
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lowandoutside
69 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2016 : 17:21:59
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quote:
Originally posted by bballman
Honestly, I don't get the big deal. It's part of playing in tournaments. What you are talking about is really peanuts anyway...
What does a team pay in advance for gate fees? $200 or so? If there are as few as 12 players on a team, that's $16.67 per player. If it's one day you all are moaning about, it's $8.34. Are you really expecting a TD to hand out $8.34 per player for all those teams? Come on. There are far more important things to worry about.
Don't forget, there was much planning, organizing, setting up, showing up to what games are played, with a staff, whether the games were played on the 2nd day or not. All the preparation was done regardless. All the time spent trying to get the fields ready for play on the 2nd day. All the time spent coordinating with and communicating to coaches. Most of these TDs do these tournaments for a living. Should they not make any money at all? Aren't you willing to put in your $8.34 to keep the tournaments coming around?
Sorry, but I think this is a little nitpicky.
Sure $8.34 is not a big deal. But, if it is a large tournament that $8.34 per player per team of 12 times 200 teams is a lot of money the TD is pocketing for nothing. What would happen if you paid for an item at the store, lets say the item was $8.34, and you got home and realized they didn't give it to you. And when you returned to the store they told you "what's the big deal, it's only $8.34, we're here to make money, sorry" I'm sorry if TD's have chosen this as their career. As with anything there is risk and reward. Would I feel bad for them if they have to refund half of a prepaid gate on a rainy Sunday? No, sorry, it's the nature of the business (no pun intended). Do they feel sorry for charging hundreds of dollars for an entry fee, a couple hundred more for a prepaid gate, $2.50 for a bottle of water when the entire case only costs about $5.00. Don't try to sell us on the poor tournament director who lost money because of a rainy day. If it wasn't a lucrative endeavor, I doubt they'd be doing it. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2016 : 22:06:02
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| Well, he's not really pocketing it for nothing. He is still doing the work. If it rains on Sunday, I guarantee the TD is not sitting at home watching golf. He's out at the fields. Trying to coordinate to get the fields ready, talking with possibly 30-40 coaches about whether or not they will be playing or how the schedule will change, following the weather forecast, etc... I might even guess that he has more work to do on a rainy day than on a clear, sunny day. Guess you didn't read my whole post. And the only tournament that has 200 teams that I know of is Perfect Game. And I don't believe they offer a team gate fee prior to the tournament. I believe they offer a weekly pass, but if you buy that, it's on you if you didn't check the weather ahead of time. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2016 : 07:44:25
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quote:
Originally posted by jaguars18
It did happen but was more of a question in general. When they charge a TEAM gate it is to cover 2-3 days depending on when it starts. I am not arguing whether a tourney should or should not get played due to rain but if they should refund part of parents money since they are paying for more than one day. Team budget money for tourney that is kept after 2 games is one thing but parent money which most teams collect on game day to turn in is another.
I think we all know the team gate fee is a way to jack up price as most every park we play at you could get into and watch the game without going thru a gate anyway LOL
To answer your question lowandoutside the highlighted sentence above is why I think it was a low end tourney. The only time I have ever heard of a parents money being collected the day OF an event is when the event was low end. |
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mwshaw
1340 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2016 : 09:17:33
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| Just to respond to the original poster..my tournament did get rained out on Sunday. I lease the fields from a city park which made the decision at 6am that morning that they were not playable. I did have a director onsite to verify. I was at Legion at 6am working on fields so we could play there. I did offer all participating teams the opportunity to continuw the tournament this coming weekend. Only 3 were available to play. So when that didnt work i issued all teams a $100.00 discount on a future event. Im a smaller organization and do everything i can to get all games in. I have also issued refunds on gate fees when rain cancelled events. There are upfront cost associated with tournaments fields,awards,insurance,personnel etc. And hours of work before hand. And when it rains the night prior im up midway through the night to keep teams informed. |
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lowandoutside
69 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2016 : 10:21:18
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by jaguars18
It did happen but was more of a question in general. When they charge a TEAM gate it is to cover 2-3 days depending on when it starts. I am not arguing whether a tourney should or should not get played due to rain but if they should refund part of parents money since they are paying for more than one day. Team budget money for tourney that is kept after 2 games is one thing but parent money which most teams collect on game day to turn in is another.
I think we all know the team gate fee is a way to jack up price as most every park we play at you could get into and watch the game without going thru a gate anyway LOL
To answer your question lowandoutside the highlighted sentence above is why I think it was a low end tourney. The only time I have ever heard of a parents money being collected the day OF an event is when the event was low end.
We've been on teams where the coach paid the gate fee for the team when he registered. On game day, he collected the gate fee from the parents. As a FYI, these were TC tournaments. Not what I consider, "low end" |
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mikepayne
173 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2016 : 13:38:01
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That seems like a big waste of time for the coach to be chasing down gate fee money on game day. I think most just add $150 ($110 for Grand slam) to the budget for each tournament and include it in their dues.
The rain just stinks, do not forget umps who wait around all day do not get paid it they do call a pitch. Every organization is different on that. |
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BaseballMom6
233 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2016 : 14:04:07
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the gate fee is pure profit. It is easier than having someone man a table and collect fees throughout the day, and generally it comes out cheaper per person as it it not based on the number of family members you bring. If you were paying a daily gate, and games were rained out you would not pay that day, so why should a gate fee be kept for a rained out day? You are already "losing money" because your 3 gg just became a 2 gg. The cost of the tourney should be based on the tourney fees. If an organization wants to claim that the gate fee is needed to cover costs, etc. than they should simply increase the entrance fee and not have a gate fee. I realize that the money adds up the same, but call it what it is. There should be no gate fee charged for a day there are no games played. However, rules covering refunds of money due to rain are generally clearly stated and if you don't like them, play elsewhere.
As for a team collecting gate fees from parents for a team fee, that is simply a choice of the team as to how they handle money. perhaps they only collect from those families attending, rather than as a team fee. Either way, it has nothing to do with the quality of the tournament attended. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2016 : 14:50:08
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quote:
Originally posted by mikepayne
That seems like a big waste of time for the coach to be chasing down gate fee money on game day. I think most just add $150 ($110 for Grand slam) to the budget for each tournament and include it in their dues.
The rain just stinks, do not forget umps who wait around all day do not get paid it they do call a pitch. Every organization is different on that.
^^^^^^This |
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lowandoutside
69 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2016 : 17:31:15
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quote:
Originally posted by BaseballMom6
the gate fee is pure profit. It is easier than having someone man a table and collect fees throughout the day, and generally it comes out cheaper per person as it it not based on the number of family members you bring. If you were paying a daily gate, and games were rained out you would not pay that day, so why should a gate fee be kept for a rained out day? You are already "losing money" because your 3 gg just became a 2 gg. The cost of the tourney should be based on the tourney fees. If an organization wants to claim that the gate fee is needed to cover costs, etc. than they should simply increase the entrance fee and not have a gate fee. I realize that the money adds up the same, but call it what it is. There should be no gate fee charged for a day there are no games played. However, rules covering refunds of money due to rain are generally clearly stated and if you don't like them, play elsewhere.
As for a team collecting gate fees from parents for a team fee, that is simply a choice of the team as to how they handle money. perhaps they only collect from those families attending, rather than as a team fee. Either way, it has nothing to do with the quality of the tournament attended.
Great idea!!! Up the entry fee and eliminate the gate fees. The only downside to that for TD's is then they can't charge for every parent, grandparent, aunt, uncle, cousin, brother, sister, etc.... I do like the idea and would love it if tournament's eliminated the gate fee. You make a very valid point, if the gate fees are used to cover the operational costs, then they should just up the entry fee. |
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luvbaseball49
18 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2016 : 20:42:27
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| Your entry fee should and normally covers the field rental for the weekend and also umpire fee's. If games were not played on Sunday, then the director actually saved money by not having to pay umpires for that day. The director should refund half the admission money since games were not played on Sunday. The admission money upfront does help the parents, but it also benefits he director who does not have to pay someone to man the gates... |
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gate fee policy
