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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
 Posted - 10/20/2015 : 14:30:15
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I don't think there is a right or wrong answer when it comes to shutting down...do you...don't you....who knows what is "right".
So, why not give examples of what shut down means to you, or are you just not bothering with the shut-down hype?
For me, from 11/1-1/1 my kid will not throw a baseball, he will hit, but he will not throw.
How about you? |
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lowandoutside
69 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2015 : 15:48:29
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| We are doing the same thing. Now trowing from Nov-Jan. We're going to keep hitting but shutting down the throwing. In Jan. we'll start warming the arm up and utilize long toss to stretch out and strengthen. |
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Ryno23
123 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2015 : 06:07:50
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| I have coached a group for the last 4 years, and we shut it down every July and August, and then again for November and December. Knock on wood, we have not had one serious arm injury, maybe some tenderness in the bicep/tricep areas and back side of shoulder, but I completely buy in to 4 months a year of no throwing and it seems to work for us! |
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turntwo
955 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2015 : 08:22:31
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| I've heard of teams continuing throwing and full blown workouts straight through Nov/Dec (maybe a small break around the holidays), but I could imagine that can't be good... We always shut down 11/1-end of Jan. Except for some light hitting, conditioning (re: basketball), and fielding drills (indoor, no throwing). The kids arms HAVE to have recovery time. |
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Mad1
252 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2015 : 09:36:30
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| We shut down after the first week of November thru Jan 1 with the exception of the cages. This year most of ours will play school ball and we will pickup in early spring for an April start to tournament ball. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2015 : 09:46:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Ryno23
I have coached a group for the last 4 years, and we shut it down every July and August, and then again for November and December. Knock on wood, we have not had one serious arm injury, maybe some tenderness in the bicep/tricep areas and back side of shoulder, but I completely buy in to 4 months a year of no throwing and it seems to work for us!
Ryno, I've never heard of that. I though the 4 months of no throwing was a continuous thing, as in 4 straight months. Does this follow some baseball guru's rules or something you and your park just do? |
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Zachsdad
60 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2015 : 10:48:05
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We shut down pitching for about 6wks in the summer. We did throw weekly in the yard to keep loose, but it was definitely lower intensity. We started again in mid-August and have worked hard throughout fall. We will finish our fall season next weekend and we will go back to the weekly, lighter-load throwing. He will not be completely shut down from all throwing. We did that last winter and ended up with tendonitis in the shoulder in early spring which required 8wks of total shut down. An MRI revealed nothing structural. The OS happens to also be a very good friend. He gave us a set of shoulder ROM and band exercises which my son has adhered to very well and without much prompting. He says he sees more tendonitis in early season from sedentary arms than from those that maintain some level of activity. We have not had any hint of shoulder problems since last March.
Here is another warning from him: beware of wall ball. If you have a younger kid you probably know about this game. The problem is that the kids are sitting in class and then 2 minutes later they are throwing a light weight ball as hard as they can at the wall. The bell rings, and they are sitting in class two minutes later! No warm up. No cool down. I stopped my son from playing (really wasn't hard- do you want to play baseball or wall ball????). |
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coach.woody
15 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2015 : 11:31:46
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| No baseball activities of any kind July-Aug or Nov-Dec. The mental break is just as important as the physical. |
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ABC_Baseball
90 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2015 : 12:44:01
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| Last year after we finished our fall, there was a shutdown on throwing. It was 6 weeks from when he stopped throwing to when he started prepping for our winter workouts. He can continue to hit, maybe once or twice a week off the tee and a trip or two to the cages during that 6 weeks to hit. |
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RoamingCF
77 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2015 : 06:11:16
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It's amazing. With all of this continued "education" re: arm injuries, I still watch 12u-10u coaches pitching kids 5+ innings in FALL tournaments, meaningless to every team/kid involved. Completely NOT about the kid.
He shut it down for 3+ months, plays a fall and winter sport, and will do just fine... |
Edited by - RoamingCF on 10/22/2015 09:29:08 |
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Zachsdad
60 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2015 : 13:24:12
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If your kid is playing football, then he's definitely not shut down from throwing. I think playing other sports is a great idea. My son was the QB last year. He was asked to play this year but does not want to despite my urging him to do so. I'm not sure why throwing in the fall any less valuable than throwing in the spring/summer? Year-round, my focus is on my son improving his personal skills. If his team wins some tournament, that is great but is a by-product of hard work improving individual skills.
I think reasonable levels of continual activity promotes a health by maintaining the conditioning of the muscles, tendons, and ligaments used in throwing. If an arm has nagging injuries, then it certainly makes sense to stop throwing to accommodate healing. But absent of injury, why let arm strength and conditioning regress to near zero levels? |
Edited by - Zachsdad on 10/22/2015 14:06:20 |
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Bravemom
204 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2015 : 21:15:53
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For those folks that shutdown their kids, do you have them do any type of arm strengthing exercises during the shutdown period?
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2015 : 08:21:05
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Zachsdad, to your question about "why let arm strength and conditioning regress to near zero levels", there is a school of thought that there are micro-tears in the muscles and tendons that need the shutdown time to heal. But also, don't misinterpret lack of pitching with a total lack of strength training for the arms.
Bravemom, my son will be doing a speed/agility/strengthening program from 11/1 - 1/30, twice a week for 2 hours per session. Just because he won't throw a ball doesn't mean he won't be working on increasing his strength. |
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ABC_Baseball
90 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2015 : 09:09:47
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| @Bravemom - I will have my kid do some type of work out that does not involve throwing (2 or 3 times a week). He recently had an overuse arm injury. The physical therapist said that he could use more strength in his shoulders so that the load can be taken off of his elbow. So we will be doing push ups and maybe some other type of shoulder exercises with light weight (2 to 3 lbs). |
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Critical Mass
277 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2015 : 11:20:53
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| I guess we started considering shut down periods after 14u, when my son started pitching. I know he did a Royals sanctioned or previously utilized throwing program after 15U. He did throw in that program but it was primariy long toss. He gained a few mph on the FB after that. Moving forward, he sat out of baseball for about 3 months Dec-Feb and was in the weightroom twice a week. I believe there are kids who can throw nonstop and never get hurt and others who just dont have the genetics to thrown when asked. Finding that balance while being careful and listening the arm is the holy grail. Dont forget long toss is a GREAT way to perfect your change up. |
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Zachsdad
60 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2015 : 12:51:45
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Wouldn't logic suggest that kids have micro-tears throughout their bodies due to their high levels of activity? Do we stop them from running when they don't exhibit any outward symptoms of damage just because they might have a micro tear? I would go further and suggest that a micro tear in a kid's body heals much faster than in an adult's body just because of the higher turnover of cells as the kid grows. I'm not saying that kids don't need some time with a reduced throwing load, just as a weight lifter peaks and backs off but continues to do high reps, but I don't believe that shutting down all throwing is the best way to prevent injury. The risk of injury due to high exertion is greatest when the musculoskeletal system is at its weakest. Pitchers work with weights and bands to strengthen their bodies to absorb the loads put on them by throwing. Why let the arm atrophy and start the season at that point each spring and hope that you don't suffer an injury before sufficient strength is attained?
Please note that I said my son follows a regime of band work and ROM exercises in addition to a lessened amount of throwing. The band work isn't heavy duty or in large amounts (pretty much those used in the Throwers Ten)
http://www.ortho.ufl.edu/sites/ortho.ufl.edu/files/handouts/Throwers-Ten.pdf |
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turntwo
955 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2015 : 16:57:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Zachsdad
Wouldn't logic suggest that kids have micro-tears throughout their bodies due to their high levels of activity? Do we stop them from running when they don't exhibit any outward symptoms of damage just because they might have a micro tear? I would go further and suggest that a micro tear in a kid's body heals much faster than in an adult's body just because of the higher turnover of cells as the kid grows. I'm not saying that kids don't need some time with a reduced throwing load, just as a weight lifter peaks and backs off but continues to do high reps, but I don't believe that shutting down all throwing is the best way to prevent injury. The risk of injury due to high exertion is greatest when the musculoskeletal system is at its weakest. Pitchers work with weights and bands to strengthen their bodies to absorb the loads put on them by throwing. Why let the arm atrophy and start the season at that point each spring and hope that you don't suffer an injury before sufficient strength is attained?
Please note that I said my son follows a regime of band work and ROM exercises in addition to a lessened amount of throwing. The band work isn't heavy duty or in large amounts (pretty much those used in the Throwers Ten)
http://www.ortho.ufl.edu/sites/ortho.ufl.edu/files/handouts/Throwers-Ten.pdf
This sounds great, but WAY too deep to understand late on a Friday afternoon. |
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Ryno23
123 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2015 : 06:56:19
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Comes on the advice of a guy that I had the opportunity to coach with when my son was young, as he had two older sons that he coached and always had successful teams and players. The Fall months, are used to work on developing players and situational things, it is no where near the demand that the comes with the Spring season. I think a throwing program should start at the first of the season, and while there is no perfect program or outline, because if there was...everybody would be doing it, right?
For our team, this seems to work well. Four years, with players and parents adhering to this off time, ZERO arm injuries with exponential growth of arm strength and stamina. Not saying that we have all the answers, again it just works well for us.
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Ryno23
I have coached a group for the last 4 years, and we shut it down every July and August, and then again for November and December. Knock on wood, we have not had one serious arm injury, maybe some tenderness in the bicep/tricep areas and back side of shoulder, but I completely buy in to 4 months a year of no throwing and it seems to work for us!
Ryno, I've never heard of that. I though the 4 months of no throwing was a continuous thing, as in 4 straight months. Does this follow some baseball guru's rules or something you and your park just do?
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2015 : 08:07:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Zachsdad
Wouldn't logic suggest that kids have micro-tears throughout their bodies due to their high levels of activity? Do we stop them from running when they don't exhibit any outward symptoms of damage just because they might have a micro tear? I would go further and suggest that a micro tear in a kid's body heals much faster than in an adult's body just because of the higher turnover of cells as the kid grows. I'm not saying that kids don't need some time with a reduced throwing load, just as a weight lifter peaks and backs off but continues to do high reps, but I don't believe that shutting down all throwing is the best way to prevent injury. The risk of injury due to high exertion is greatest when the musculoskeletal system is at its weakest. Pitchers work with weights and bands to strengthen their bodies to absorb the loads put on them by throwing. Why let the arm atrophy and start the season at that point each spring and hope that you don't suffer an injury before sufficient strength is attained?
Please note that I said my son follows a regime of band work and ROM exercises in addition to a lessened amount of throwing. The band work isn't heavy duty or in large amounts (pretty much those used in the Throwers Ten)
http://www.ortho.ufl.edu/sites/ortho.ufl.edu/files/handouts/Throwers-Ten.pdf
Zachsdad, you said "wouldn't logic suggest that kids have micro-tears throughout their bodies due to high levels of activity"...you lost me there. There is a pretty big difference in running a race down the block, or a pick up game of basketball and attempting to hurl a small ball 80+mpm 70-90 time in a 2 hour period.
You may want to read some articles on TJ surgery. All the ones I have read are very clear in that it wasn't one pitch, or one motion that breaks a kids tendons it's a repetitive motion and lack of healing time in between injuries over years. Some people DO have inhuman tendons that just won't break, like Nolan Ryan, and some have tendons that are slowly being eroded away and are on the verge of breaking like Brady Aiken was...he still pitched well but detailed scans by the Houston Astros did prove he was about to break, and then he did.
Does any of that have to do with a shut down period...who knows. I have absolutely fallen for the hype in the idea of the shutdown healing kids arms. Last year my son gained about 10mph after shut down, maybe that was due to healthier muscles and tendons, maybe it was due to the growth spurt he had, or maybe it was due to a coach who knew how to effectively shut him down and then ramp him back up.
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hshuler
1074 Posts |
Posted - 10/26/2015 : 19:54:58
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My son didn't pick up a baseball from our last tournament in late July until an indoor practice a few weeks ago and an outdoor practice last Tuesday before a tournament this past weekend.
I can tell that his arm is stronger and he but he's never pitched a lot...maybe 20 - 25 innings during the spring. He won't pick up a ball again until mid December when he'll start a rehab throwing program and then progress into long toss. From my experience, starting long toss to early will do more harm than good. |
Edited by - hshuler on 10/26/2015 22:08:54 |
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oneZone
117 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2015 : 09:14:06
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| I like to shut my kids down for several weeks after fall and spring seasons so they remember there are other great sports kids should play, like basketball, volleyball, football, soccer, etc.! |
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dad4kids
109 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2015 : 11:36:15
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| I'd be interested in hearing from those with older pitchers, like bballman, about throwing programs and/or continuing long toss between Fall and Spring seasons. Do you think they hurt or help at this age (or does it just depend on the kid)? Thanks. |
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bfriendly
376 Posts |
Posted - 10/27/2015 : 22:24:02
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I too would like to hear a little more about it. I dont necessarily "shut down" my kid in an intentional way. Just the typical sleepovers with friends, fishin, hunting, golfing .......I try to limit his throws anywho. I tend to agree with Zachsdad............No doubt when you shut down the use of something it will not only heal(if needed), but will get weaker if no healing is required. JMHO of course and no I didnt stay at a Holiday Inn last night |
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Are you shutting your kid down? Opinion Poll
