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bmoser
1633 Posts |
 Posted - 04/28/2009 : 22:28:04
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I keep the book, and saw a 10U kid throw 95 pitches tonight. It was a 1st for me, and I've seen a lot of baseball. I felt like I should be doing something, but I didn't know what.
To add insult to injury, they lost.
What should I have done, if anything? |
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ingasven
120 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2009 : 08:53:12
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I guess just be thankful you are knowledgeable enough as a parent to know this isn't good and that your son doesn't play for that coach.
I was hit in the head myself last week with a similar situation as I was leaving a tournament. I bumped into a guy that used to be my next door neighbor. He mentioned that his son(9U) had pitched, but he was unhappy that the head coach (he is an asst. coach) pulled his son.... even after the coach explained to him that he was at 91 pitches, not counting the 40 warm-up pitches. How did he get to 91???????? Hopefully these guys will see the light someday before too much damage is done. |
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tater77bug
133 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2009 : 08:54:09
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| It seems to becoming a common thread...the better the pitcher the more he throws...that stands to reason....we have a lot of coachs that believe they know what the best for a kid is...and that their pitching program won't hurt a kid ....95 pitches for a 10u seems crazy....of course I watched a 12u kid throw 119 pitches this weekend and about 30% curves....if it's your team then you should say something to the coach...if it's another team...pray for the kid because this will not be the last time it happens... |
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Shut Out
512 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2009 : 09:20:03
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| if your kid is on that team i would have a serious discussion with the coach on why he was willing to harm a 10 year old kid to try an win 1 ball game. If he didn't see the error in his ways i would find a new team. |
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goyard
217 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2009 : 09:33:36
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Now here is an are where I feel it is OK to make a connection with the Coach or assistant coach and ask them if they have a clicker count on their pitcher. Yes, I would enlighten them that the kid has thrown 95 pitches as this is double what a 10U should throw. I am a huge proponent of letting the coach coach but here is where I would help him out.
I saw a very similar occurence in Florida this year in a tourne we played where a kid threw SOOOooooo much that he literally started crying on the mound and grimacing with EVERY pitch. His coach wanted the win and continued to coax him on pitch after pitch. I called BLUE over an brought it to his attention and he called time and walked to the mound and called for the coach to join him. BLUE came back and said to me that he has umped that kid for 5 years and it killed him to see what his coach (father) was doing. OH, and did I mention that almost EVERY pitch called was a BENDER!!!!!???!!!!!! YEP!
When the coach still left him in about three of us said to blue - we'll give e'em the game if they need it that bad but get the kid off the mound. The coach then made the change. Incidentally, we won the game which was the championship ....WIN AT ALL COST - Poor mentality!!!! |
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bigdog
231 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2009 : 09:51:32
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those are some brutal pitch counts. reminds me of years past ...little league world series. Some of those kids would throw 120 pitches then come back a few days later and do it again.
we play 13u and our pitchers generally throw about 70-80 pitches.....for the entire weekend. And even after icing there still is soreness on Monday and sometimes Tuesday. That coach should be smacked. And shame on the parent for not saying something and allowing the pitcher to be abused. |
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baseball99
89 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2009 : 10:25:11
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What does abhorrant mean ???
I'm kidding bmoser ... nice vocab though.
If I was in your shoes, I would have found the parent of that kid and made sure they knew how many he had thrown. They might tell me to pound sand but at least I have let them know. If the kid was one of the coaches sons .... not much you can do it seems.
quote:
Originally posted by bmoser
I keep the book, and saw a 10U kid throw 95 pitches tonight. It was a 1st for me, and I've seen a lot of baseball. I felt like I should be doing something, but I didn't know what.
To add insult to injury, they lost.
What should I have done, if anything?
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Edited by - baseball99 on 04/29/2009 12:36:59 |
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CoachMark
216 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2009 : 11:45:10
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I had this situation come up this past weekend in a tournament against an opposing team in a 10U game. I have a Palm Pilot program that tracks every pitch I use for both teams.
In the fifth inning when their coach went to the mound, I noticed their pitcher was at 90 pitches. I mentioned this to him when he came back to the dugout and he was genuinely surprised. He then went to his scorekeeper to corroborate and took the kid out after the next batter (it took her a while to add up).
He thanked me after the game for mentioning this to him, but he could have just as easily told me to put my stats where the sun don't shine. I took a risk of being a jerk by bringing it up, but when I'm faced with a dilemma , I will error on the side of the child every time.
I would talk about this with your Head Coach and make sure he is informed. He can then choose to relay this information to the other team or not. Ultimately, it's his call. |
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knapper1
26 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2009 : 13:12:13
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| How many innings did the kid pitch to reach the 95 pitch count? |
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bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2009 : 13:54:13
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I did inform our Coach when he hit 81 pitches after 5 complete. then they trotted him out there in the 6th and threw 14 more, most of those bouncing upto the plate. His legs were even too tired to maintain proper mechanics.
It was the Coaches son. I'll bet he didnt realize how high the pitch count had risen. They were close to knocking off a stonger opponenet and got caught up in the moment I'm hoping.
Next time I'll confirm the pitch count with the other scorekeeper as a hint.
Thanks for all the comments and feedback. |
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GW
56 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2009 : 14:39:08
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Come on guys, let's don't be naive. The coaches know that a kid is going to average about 15+ pitches an inning. That doesn't count warmups , of course. Get through 5 innings and the majority of the time, it is going to be 75+. You don't have to be a genius to figure this out and certainly should have a counter or assistant coach watching this area of the game. Also, if a head coach says he doesn't know how many pitches the kid has thrown then he should not be coaching, as safety of these kids should be one of his top priorities.
Parents and coaches get overly concerned with winning and having the best 10U(or whatever) team in some tournament. They also don't factor the amount of throwing the kid does playing other positions in the other 1 to 3 games the team is playing on that day.
It can be extremely hard to watch, especially when you hear of kids having to be shutdown for the season or having surgery at such young ages. But, ultimately, the parents must be on top of this and tell the coaches to pull their son.
And while we are at it, don't forget to watch out for those youth catchers being behind the plate for too many innings. |
Edited by - GW on 04/29/2009 14:44:47 |
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Shut Out
512 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2009 : 15:04:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Peanutsr
My son (10u) pitched this weekend. We were struggling and he was getting a lot of full counts and a lot of two strike seeing eye hits that found their way through the infield. I don't know how many exactly but would guess he had 9 or 10 two strike hits/reached by errors. I was wrapped up in the game and not keeping up with pitch counts. After the game the score keeper asked me if I knew that my son had thrown 100 pitches. Several of the coaches came to me after the game and apologised saying they were not aware that he had thrown that many as they were also wrapped up in the game. I know that they typically are very cognizant of their players pitch counts.
I don't think that the coaches owed me an apology. I failed as a parent plain and simple.
I am usually one of the loudest in speaking out against these young kids being overthrown, and have always said I would yank my kid off a team before I would allow a coach to overpitch him.
We iced and have rested and not done the usual every night at the ball field. He says he has no discomfort or soreness at all, so it seems that he is o.k.
This weekend I felt shame as a parent and I learned a valuable lesson.
Thank you for the topic B.
Your kid's coach says he was too wrapped up in the game to know how many pitches he has thrown. That is complete x!!t. Last time I checked managing your pitchers is part of the game and one of the most important duties a coach has on game day. Before i would let my kid pitch for him again i would ask him who is responsible for managing pitchers and pitch count for the team moving forward since it is sounds like to this point no one is. The coach not only should have apologized but needs to re-evaluate his game plan. |
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goyard
217 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2009 : 15:09:59
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BMoser - "abhorrant" = hateful & disgusting .... 95 pitches is just that!  |
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bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2009 : 15:59:23
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he went 5 complete, then started the 6th and had to be pulled out.
quote:
Originally posted by knapper1
How many innings did the kid pitch to reach the 95 pitch count?
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highcheese
71 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2009 : 00:22:40
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| Gentlemen and gentlewomen, for heavans sake this is a topic to get involved!!!! I know two kids just last week who are done for the year, I mean 12 months done, because of crap like this. And no they cannot play other positions for this time period. You just crushed a kids whole outlook on baseball for WHAT!!! A $2.50 trophy! For cripes sake, get involved!! At these pre puberty age groups keep a pitch count, call it out every inning. when there is even a hint of mechanics breakdown get him out of there. Ever see what a curveball thrown with inproper mechanics can do to an elbow or shoulder when a kid is already in the tank on strength, stamina, etc... NOT a good thing. Shame on them for allowing curveballs in the first place pre puberty. I personally have no problem shouting at the top of my lungs to get a kid out of there who is only going to hurt himself and I do not care what team his is on. If the people who know baseball can impose some wisdom on the coaches and parents out there and we have to eat a little crow, get embarrased in public, or told to pound salt, and the outcome is helping a little kid today or maybe in the future, then sign me up. have the coconuts to get involved. |
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Louis
12 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2009 : 13:36:55
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| it continues to amaze me how many pitches kids under 16 throw and the parents are as much to blame as the coaches, actually probably more...before allowing your child to play for a coach, parents should get an understanding of that coaches view on pitches thrown...unfortunately, its the kind of thing thats not a problem until its a problem.... |
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bstand
56 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2009 : 22:08:35
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| It is hard to believe that there are coaches out there who either don't care or really just don't keep up with pitch counts. It also blows my mind to see a kid come out and throw full speed during warm-ups. As impressive as this may be, it gives the other team's lead-off and on-deck batter a free shot at timing those pitches. Not to mention it adds that many more pitches to the pitch count. (5 per inning for 5 innings is another 25 pitches.) We are fortunate on our 10u team to have 9-10 pitchers, so pitch count rarely becomes an issue. |
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12uCoach
357 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2009 : 08:53:40
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| It goes through High School and College as well, some HS coaches don't see a problem in a complete game 123 pitches on April 30 (Sequoyah vs Hillgrove). |
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10 BB
264 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2009 : 09:52:03
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| If a kid "pitcher" is throwing that many pitches he aint no pitcher. Im sorry not trying to be mean about it just trying to keep it real. We work on strike outs and have a good defense. Last weekend we played up in 11u and one of our pitchers threw an 8-0 shut out in five innings and only thrw 38 pitches. The weekend before the same kid threw six innings for a complete game and only threw 48 pitches. If they are throwing 95 pitches then every kid on that team is a pitcher. And what about some time limits with that many pitches on one side yall can't be playing but 3 inning ball games unless its the championship game. |
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loveforthegame25
448 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2009 : 10:01:20
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| 12U, welcome back |
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biged
198 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2009 : 12:22:37
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10BB agree w/ u to a point. As kids get older it is much more difficult to get outs by throwing down the middle or even painting the corner. Player's abilities catch up and distances get further. Good hitters (there are usually at least a couple on each team) will make u pay dearly for throwing nothing but strikes and not throwing the ball off the plate. When u do this, the pitch count will rise. Ask 10 year olds what a perfect inning would be and most would say three strike outs. Ask 14 year olds and most will say three pitches. It a maturity thing.
Seen a lot of kids with good arms over throw and get there pitch count high. It is the coaches, parents, and players responsibility to learn how to pitch. Believe me when I say NON are effective 14u and up unless they learn how to pitch. However, good teams and good batters will force pitchers to throw more pitches. This is one of the beauties of baseball. |
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ItsjustLLBBall
119 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2009 : 14:22:33
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| As I do not condone high pitch counts, I have pitched at a high level and remember pitching 6 inning eveytime time out in little league. This meant 80-100 per outting, the only HUGE difference is that we only played about 20-25 games per back then and didn't play the 70-80 games which these kids play nowadays....Moral of this message is, if a kid so happens to exceed a pitch count one week, you just have to monitor him the following outtings, make sure this does not become habbit, but an abhoration to the norm. You eventually have to let them go over their normal count, not by many, but this actually does build arm strength. Again, I emphasize occasionally. This should not be the norm. 50-60 pitches at the most at 11-12 years old is a good range. |
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Peanutsr
171 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2009 : 14:48:55
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| 10bb, so by your reasoning, if you get a kid hitting corners, getting 1-2, 2-2, counts and then getting hitters to hit ground balls and your infield boots them or makes bad throws to first, then that kid is not a pitcher? |
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10 BB
264 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2009 : 14:09:59
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| Peanutsr; I guess I can see where things could go sour but so often kids are put on the mound and left out to long. I feel like a "PITCHER" builds a great defense. Ive seen a team looking terrible with one kid throwing and put in a "PITCHER" and they look like a different team. Most teams only have a few real "PITCHERS". Sorry to offend I didn't realize you were ok with throwing a kid 90 pitches just because the defense boots balls |
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Peanutsr
171 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2009 : 13:22:17
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I am not ok with a 10yo throwing more than 60 pitches in a game.
I am also not ok with someone makeing a generalized statement that if a kid pitches 90 pitches in a game then he is not a "pitcher".
While this may be true in a majority of cases, there are situations where a kid is a pretty good pitcher and for reasons beyond his control he is left in too long.
I know that there are 10 year olds that read this board and I wouldn't want to be the cause of a pretty good "pitcher" second guessing himself when he goes to the mound because some so called "expert" made an outrageous generalized statement about any kid who might have been left in a game too long by his coach.
Tell me, a kid goes 2 and 2 on every batter before striking them out. Half the batters foul off one ball. kid pitches 6 innings.(say it was the championship game with no time limit ) 99 pitches, 18 strike outs, shutout. Under your Blanket of who is or isn't, this kid is not a pitcher.
While I would not condone leaving this kid in that long, I certainly wouldn't tell him he isn't a pitcher.
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Edited by - Peanutsr on 05/05/2009 14:14:51 |
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Reggie
70 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2009 : 07:53:55
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| How does pitching at 9 or 10 years old build arm strength? If that were the case wouldn't more doctors be telling kids to lift weights, I think until they are 13 14 after puberty you dont produce much strenght but more damage than anything. |
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abhorrant pitch counts
