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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
 Posted - 09/08/2015 : 11:21:13
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I was considering the 20 pitch limit to be equal to one inning. Once again, I don't understand how, if coaches have been following the ASMI pitch count rules, this is any different than last year. Obviously arm care issues are on the rise with the 14u kids now having to get TJ surgery...what is the glitch people are having with this new rule?
We all know inning limits per pitchers are a joke since 6 innings of pitching for one kid could be half the pitch count for another kid. We have all seen some coaches pitching their stud pitchers 2-3 innings on Saturday and then 2-3 innings on Sunday which is WAY bad for a pitcher who is even 16u.
Perhaps this rule will allow coaches to focus more on the weaker pitchers and allow the stronger pitches a much needed break. 6 games could be technically done by 6 pitchers...but it will likely take the whole team pitching and isn't that what under 14u is supposed to be about, everyone gets their shot, everyone gets to learn? |
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RoamingCF
77 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2015 : 14:48:04
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The new USSSA rules follow ASMI standards, and is similar to Little League pitch count rules. However, LL "all-star" events do not typically have multiple games in a given day, unlike the USSSA pool games Saturday/4+ bracket games on Sunday (or the ever popular "modified" double elimination format, which losers bracket could equate to 5-6 games in a day). I applaud the effort...
HOWEVER...good luck managing this rule logistically. The rule states "It shall be the responsibility of each team manager to challenge Pitch Count Limits...a Protest may be filed at any point after the player in violation throws a pitch...".
WHO exactly is responsible to record pitch counts each game?
HOW are the umpires going to record on the game cards & report to TD's? The umpires hardly can record which players pitched each game...
WHAT about games played at a park across town? How quickly does that get recorded??
Under the current format, there is NO WAY the USSSA tournaments & TD's can handle this logistically. Given the multi-park tournament games, back-to-back games at another park before heading to another field for the Championship game...NO WAY. This rule will slow tournaments to a crawl... |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2015 : 15:48:19
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While I agree pitch changes will be more frequent, I don't see why it is any harder to keep track of a pitch count than it is to keep track of the pitchers innings. I have also never seen a 12u and under tourney go 5 or 6 games in one day. One time I saw a bracket of a very badly seeded team make it to the championship on Sunday and they had to play 4 games to get there.
Instead of using little Johnny for 2 or 3 innings on Saturday and then 2-4 innings on Sunday, this rule will make the coach only use Johnny for 1 inning on Saturday and then more on Sunday. I'm still loving the rule and think it will protect the young kids arms more effectively than the completely ineffective inning limits they currently have.
Here is a crazy idea...teams 12 and under enter tourneys that have 4 or 5 game maximums? That way no one will run out of pitching, and these elementary school kids might actually get to bed before 11pm on a Sunday night during school!!!
I know, I know, stop the crazy talk! |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2015 : 15:55:57
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Why will it be that much harder to monitor than innings? It's basically the same thing. Instead of teams reporting who pitched and how many innings, they will simply report who pitched and how many pitches. Seems pretty simple to me. Just replacing one form of monitoring for another. Whoever was responsible for reporting pitching innings previously, will now report pitch counts instead. I'm assuming home team is responsible for keeping the book.
I think this is a good thing. It may require younger teams to carry more players, but I have been an advocate of that for a while now. Managers will have to strategize more. They will have to work with their kids on the team who don't usually pitch so much, but that is a good thing. Bottom line is it will protect those stud pitchers who coaches abuse in their quest for the trophy.
Time to get to work guys. Figure out that pitching rotation and get coaching those kids who actually need coaching. I think it will work out better in the long run. |
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turntwo
955 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2015 : 16:51:36
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quote:
Originally posted by bballman
Why will it be that much harder to monitor than innings? It's basically the same thing. Instead of teams reporting who pitched and how many innings, they will simply report who pitched and how many pitches. Seems pretty simple to me. Just replacing one form of monitoring for another. Whoever was responsible for reporting pitching innings previously, will now report pitch counts instead. I'm assuming home team is responsible for keeping the book.
I think this is a good thing. It may require younger teams to carry more players, but I have been an advocate of that for a while now. Managers will have to strategize more. They will have to work with their kids on the team who don't usually pitch so much, but that is a good thing. Bottom line is it will protect those stud pitchers who coaches abuse in their quest for the trophy.
Time to get to work guys. Figure out that pitching rotation and get coaching those kids who actually need coaching. I think it will work out better in the long run.
Monitoring the pitch count... I can't tell you how many HORRIBLE umps we've had in USSSA tourneys! Not know number of balls, strikes, or even outs! HOW in the heck am I going to trust them to keep the correct pitch count? If someone is using a paper book to keep the 'score' with, are they tracking every foul ball (especially after 2 strikes)? What if GC is being used, and the battery dies? Who's the back-up? Does the other team keep track of your pitch count and vice-versa? How quick will the information be made available to the entire tournament? (Because believe it or not, I'm pretty sure people will try to work around this, JUST to win).
I 100% agree that this will drive up the need for more players per team, but then you run into having to juggle 3, 4, 5 players on the bench at any given time? How many people will be complaining then?
Strategizing is a must now, but even then, the most well thought out plan can go up in smoke with a pitcher or two run out of pitches earlier than expected! (ESPECIALLY at the younger ages, where 7 of 10 for strikes is considered 'premium'-- 8-10U). Most importantly, your last paragraph-- EXACTLY! Coaches need to DEVELOP every kid on their team to get to that 7, 8, 9 of 10 pitches for strikes. Proficiency will be key. |
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Renegade44
211 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2015 : 22:49:21
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| I'm going to load up on batters who can have some 10 pitch atbats! Or at least work on that more at practice! |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2015 : 08:53:38
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quote:
Originally posted by turntwo
Monitoring the pitch count... I can't tell you how many HORRIBLE umps we've had in USSSA tourneys! Not know number of balls, strikes, or even outs! HOW in the heck am I going to trust them to keep the correct pitch count? If someone is using a paper book to keep the 'score' with, are they tracking every foul ball (especially after 2 strikes)? What if GC is being used, and the battery dies? Who's the back-up? Does the other team keep track of your pitch count and vice-versa? How quick will the information be made available to the entire tournament? (Because believe it or not, I'm pretty sure people will try to work around this, JUST to win).
I 100% agree that this will drive up the need for more players per team, but then you run into having to juggle 3, 4, 5 players on the bench at any given time? How many people will be complaining then?
Strategizing is a must now, but even then, the most well thought out plan can go up in smoke with a pitcher or two run out of pitches earlier than expected! (ESPECIALLY at the younger ages, where 7 of 10 for strikes is considered 'premium'-- 8-10U). Most importantly, your last paragraph-- EXACTLY! Coaches need to DEVELOP every kid on their team to get to that 7, 8, 9 of 10 pitches for strikes. Proficiency will be key.
Turntwo, it will be both teams that are keeping count of the pitches. Regardless of if it is a ball/strike/foul, if it is a pitch it is counted. At the end of the game the two score keepers will give their results to the umpire and if there is a disagreement the umpire will likely go with the home teams number unless there is a huge difference. These numbers will be submitted along with the final score on the umpire score card to the USSSA rep as the record of the game.
The point of 12u and under is to have fun playing the game and learn multiple positions. In the spirit of that I would hope there would still only be no more than 11 kids per team. I can only guess that the coaches will have to actually plan out their pitchers ahead of time, and have back up plans in case kid X is just off that day. Also, coaches will have to develop the pitching ability of that kid that plays left or sits the bench. That child WILL learn how to pitch, even if it's only going to the catcher at 30 mph, there is a need to have that kid trained to get it over the plate. Not being able to ignore a single kid sounds great to me. |
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mikepayne
173 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2015 : 10:35:50
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Alright kid you only get twenty pitches today. Throw as hard as you can since you have such a limited number of pitches. Yeah, this will make things better.
I am not against pitch counts and I do believe they are more effective than an innings limit. Twenty pitches is way to low. Now we will have non-pitchers climbing on the bump, throwing hard. Batters, do not dig in. We are headed down the road to becoming glorified rec-league.
Triple Crown this is your chance to separate yourself, do not follow the sheep. There will be a waiting list for all your tournaments. Ninety percent of coaches know how to run a pitching staff, let the other 10% that need big brother to take any thought process out of when to take a pitcher out play the other tournaments. This is government thinking-zero tolerance on steroids.
All I want is choice.
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Renegade44
211 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2015 : 10:44:36
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This is delving into participation trophy level with every kid can and will learn how to pitch. Some can't pitch, some aren't teachable to pitch, some have less than no desire to pitch, some should not have pitch in their vocabulary, etc.
I'd rather forfeit than put any of the above type kids on the mound.
And one of the reasons is that it is darn dangerous to pitch if you are not ready or sufficiently talented. 50ft or even less away, drop 10 or less hyped up bats....................and soft tossing at batting practice speeds could equal a very scary situation for that pitcher.
You want your son told he should pitch some? At 12U when he is tossing 50mph? I wouldn't. Think of a duck in a shooting gallery as balls whiz by. |
Edited by - Renegade44 on 09/10/2015 11:09:47 |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2015 : 11:57:20
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Let me point out again, as CaCO3Girl pointed out earlier. It is NOT a 20 pitch limit. It is if a kid throws 20 pitches in a day, he must take a day off before he pitches again. Some of you are thinking about managing this the wrong way. Plan your rotation where you use some kids on day one and some on day two. Plan on a kid being able to throw up to 85 pitches on Saturday and NOT throw on Sunday. If you need a kid to come in and close on Saturday for one inning, that's all you should be planning on, if you want him to pitch Sunday.
I really don't think this will require using 4 or 5 pitchers in a game, taking 30 minutes or more making pitching changes. If you have 2 pool games on Saturday, plan on using 2 starters and 1 or 2 relief guys. Save some pitching for Sunday. Some of you are talking like you are going to use all your Saturday pitchers for less than 20 pitches so they are all available on Sunday. That's not the right thought process.
Everyone on this board has talked at some point about following ASMI guidelines and taking care of pitcher's arms. This is nothing LL hasn't been doing for several years now. If you have a roster of 11 and you already know 5 kids can't or won't pitch or it's unsafe for them to pitch, then you need more players who CAN and WILL pitch. If you have a roster of 11 kids and only 6 can pitch, you WILL be abusing kid's arms. It is an irresponsible makeup of a team.
All of you now know about this rule. Start beefing up your rosters to make sure you can compete within the rules. If you don't feel like you have enough kids who can pitch, start looking to pick up a few more. After all, what's more important, keeping the kids healthy, or having to actually manage a team where kids have to share bench time? Part of being a manager of a baseball team is dealing with the kids and parents and managing play time - and making sure the kids are healthy enough to play HS baseball and maybe beyond.
It's a management issue people. It's taking care of the kids whose parents put under your guidance and trust. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2015 : 14:08:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Renegade44
This is delving into participation trophy level with every kid can and will learn how to pitch. Some can't pitch, some aren't teachable to pitch, some have less than no desire to pitch, some should not have pitch in their vocabulary, etc.
I'm sorry WHAT? Is this travel baseball or is this rec ball? If you have a player that:
1. "can't pitch", teach them!
2. "aren't teachable to pitch", then what the heck are they doing out of the rec park?
3. "Less than no desire to pitch", I'm sorry, did I read this one right? If they want to be on a TRAVEL BALL TEAM they will need to investigate the term "TEAM" and do what they can to help!
4. "Should not have pitch in their vocabulary"...once again, what are they doing out of the rec park?!?!?
I'm not trying to call people out on their personal choices but when the pediatrician wants to vaccinate my kid I don't research to see if I agree. When the movie is rated R I don't let my 6 year old watch it, and when the American Sports Medical Institute says my under 13u kid shouldn't pitch more than 20 pitches in a day unless he rests a day I listen, and always have. Is their system to protect pitchers arms perfect, NO, but if there is a 1% chance they are right who here is willing to sacrifice their kids arms to win a 10u trophy? |
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baldy87
118 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2015 : 17:03:07
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| I gotta agree with Renegade44 on this one. No one disputes that kids' arms need to be taken care of. I think the dispute is that with these rules, there will be more arguments because the rules won't be enforceable. Umps and TDs already don't enforce innings pitched or even illegal bats. It's up to the opposing coach to bring up infractions, and then the fireworks start. Same will happen with this. Travel ball is supposed to be about fewer rules - not more. Seems if you're having a problem with a coach that is pitching kids too much, you just talk to the coach about expectations of pitching frequency/pitch counts. If it doesn't improve, you change teams. It doesn't have to be a whole new set of rules put in place by a "governing body" that impacts everyone in a negative way (more arguments). Similar to bigger/more government, which is a whole other debate...... |
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turntwo
955 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2015 : 17:22:29
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
quote:
Originally posted by Renegade44
This is delving into participation trophy level with every kid can and will learn how to pitch. Some can't pitch, some aren't teachable to pitch, some have less than no desire to pitch, some should not have pitch in their vocabulary, etc.
I'm sorry WHAT? Is this travel baseball or is this rec ball? If you have a player that:
1. "can't pitch", teach them!
2. "aren't teachable to pitch", then what the heck are they doing out of the rec park?
3. "Less than no desire to pitch", I'm sorry, did I read this one right? If they want to be on a TRAVEL BALL TEAM they will need to investigate the term "TEAM" and do what they can to help!
4. "Should not have pitch in their vocabulary"...once again, what are they doing out of the rec park?!?!?
Oh, oh, oh... I know! I KNOW! Can I answer? PLEASE can I answer???
1. Technically you could rely on coach, but that would be irresponsible as a parent. Sorry, not sorry. Coach is nothing more than a manager at best. Get your instruction on the side, from a pro. Not a dad. SOME would prefer their sub-14 year old NOT to pitch, but rather catch, play INF, and OF.
2. Because mommy and daddy want him there!!! And want to brag little Joey plays travel (sorry had to give Johnny a break, he's been taking a beating lately) (sarcasm)
3. Refer to my "Know your role" and the selfish aspect this great game is moving to. OR, refer to answer 1-- some would rather their kid not pitch until their body is more developed and growth plates have grown and developed to take the stress.
4. See answer 2.
And, YES! Everyone loves trophies! YOU get one, and YOU Renegade! And you, bballman! And you, and you, and you.... EVERYONE gets one! I feel like Oprah! Yeah! No parent left behind!
Good news is, NFL starts tonight, and bow season opens Saturday. |
Edited by - turntwo on 09/10/2015 19:20:18 |
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teamgamark
163 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2015 : 23:11:59
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| CaCO3Girl you are right on, seen too many times at several ages coaches (and team managers) worried about the win more than a kids arm. Also at 10, 11U and even younger who sit a kid who shows up for all the practices for they want a trophy (supposedly for all the other boys to get a trophy). Not seen a kid yet including my sons who cared about the trophies from Dizzy Dean or 11u once they get to high school. Granted I seen some top program coaches feel they are judged on the hardware and wear out a kid or crush a kids desire to play b4 he even hits puberty. Glad it is football season and hunting season. |
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Crazyforbball
391 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2015 : 00:11:00
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| CaCO3 we played many tourneys under 12 where we went 5 or 6 games on Sunday. If you seed lower but then scrape your way to the end it often goes 5 or 6, have even done this with 2 or 3 of those 5 or 6 games going into extra innings! Totally agree with turn two....I know we've had coaches who I definitely would NOT want to teach my kid to pitch... that is best left to the pros and not everyone wants to shell out the extra$$ for pro pitching instruction when their kid will never be a pitcher, just to accommodate these rules. If you have a pro in the coaching mix, great, then I suppose everyone can "learn" to some degree even if many will never throw consistent strikes, at least they can stand there and "pitch" without injury hopefully. In fact, coaches not skilled to teach proper mechanics being forced to "teach" the whole team could actually do more harm than leaving the pitching to the half (or hopefully more!) of the team who loves the mound and has learned proper technique on their own$. If EVERY player HAS to pitch and that's left up to Dad coach who has no idea of grip, throwing mechanics etc. you could actually increase overall injury rates. If they are only 20 crappy throws though I guess the kid will be ok. Anyway.. No amount of instruction will teach some kids how to pitch well anyway .. some just don't have (and never will have) that type of velocity/control. Those who are scared of the ball at close range have no business pitching.. have played with superb players who maybe are complete rock stars at the plate and in the outfield but have ZERO interest in the mound. Doesn't mean they should play rec ball, just means they shouldn't pitch. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2015 : 08:56:31
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quote:
And, YES! Everyone loves trophies! YOU get one, and YOU Renegade! And you, bballman! And you, and you, and you.... EVERYONE gets one! I feel like Oprah! Yeah! No parent left behind!
LMAO! That was SOOO priceless turntwo! I needed that laugh, thanks! |
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nwgadad
137 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2015 : 10:29:28
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| I am more for less games in a day. Why do we NEED tournaments? What about a 3 game set with Fri Home, Sat Away, Sun Home or vice versa. 1 game a day is enough. Think of the rest on the arms. Play 9 inning games. How often do the PRO's even play a double header, much less 4, 5, 6 games in day. While I know we are accustomed to tournaments, why not branch off. Do something different. Work on player development, not trophy development. |
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hshuler
1074 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2015 : 10:48:57
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The "professional instruction" label gets more parents sucked in than anything.
Please try to find q good teacher who relates well to your kid versus a title. Now, that maybe an ex-pro or it maybe a former high school player but not everyone instructor is a good instructor...and ex-pro is a very loose term. |
Edited by - hshuler on 09/11/2015 12:23:11 |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2015 : 13:44:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Crazyforbball
CaCO3 we played many tourneys under 12 where we went 5 or 6 games on Sunday. If you seed lower but then scrape your way to the end it often goes 5 or 6, have even done this with 2 or 3 of those 5 or 6 games going into extra innings! Totally agree with turn two....I know we've had coaches who I definitely would NOT want to teach my kid to pitch... that is best left to the pros and not everyone wants to shell out the extra$$ for pro pitching instruction when their kid will never be a pitcher, just to accommodate these rules. If you have a pro in the coaching mix, great, then I suppose everyone can "learn" to some degree even if many will never throw consistent strikes, at least they can stand there and "pitch" without injury hopefully. In fact, coaches not skilled to teach proper mechanics being forced to "teach" the whole team could actually do more harm than leaving the pitching to the half (or hopefully more!) of the team who loves the mound and has learned proper technique on their own$. If EVERY player HAS to pitch and that's left up to Dad coach who has no idea of grip, throwing mechanics etc. you could actually increase overall injury rates. If they are only 20 crappy throws though I guess the kid will be ok. Anyway.. No amount of instruction will teach some kids how to pitch well anyway .. some just don't have (and never will have) that type of velocity/control. Those who are scared of the ball at close range have no business pitching.. have played with superb players who maybe are complete rock stars at the plate and in the outfield but have ZERO interest in the mound. Doesn't mean they should play rec ball, just means they shouldn't pitch.
crazyforbball I'm sorry, but I'm calling bull. You just don't have tourneys going 6 games on Sunday under 12u. 2 games on Saturday and 4 on Sunday to get to the 'ship, okay, but not 6 games on Sunday. If that were the case the triple crown rule of each pitcher getting an additional inning after the 5th game just wouldn't make sense, that is a "if you make it to the championship" rule. Please tell us the tourney type this occurred in.
To your point on unqualified coaches teaching pitching...that falls squarely into the "If Joey's daddy wanted him off the bench so he started his own team" category...well maybe this new rule will make people like Joey's daddy think twice about just forming a new team. A smart coach will hire in a pitching instructor to teach kids if he is unable to do it himself.
As for your statement "Those who are scared of the ball at close range have no business pitching."...I would go further and say they have no business in travel ball. There is this huge break with reality. Travel ball is suppose to be for the elite, the best of the best, the kids with great coordination early on who love the game. Travel Ball is not suppose to just be for any kid who wants to play year round.
As for paid coaching, I have said on here a million times it's a waste of money and those lessons are purchased by parents that are drinking the bad kool-aid man. If the kid makes it to 14u then you adjust his swing, or better yet, if he's good get him with coaches that can fix his swing early! The 10u kid doesn't need to have great form pitching! There are only 2 reasons for private lessons that are acceptable. 1. The kid is 14u and up 2. The kid is throwing hard enough to hurt himself (this would be 65mph+) Any other private lesson paid for is because mommy and or daddy have a dream, not because the kid "NEEDS" the lesson in order to play.
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dad4kids
109 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2015 : 17:05:00
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Since pitchers can't hurt themselves with bad mechanics unles they're "throwing hard enough ... (this would be 65mph+)," I guess all those recommendations and innings limits should be scrapped. What a relief!! Keep throwing those sidearm curve balls, boys. You're good!
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turntwo
955 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2015 : 18:10:07
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quote:
Originally posted by dad4kids
Since pitchers can't hurt themselves with bad mechanics unles they're "throwing hard enough ... (this would be 65mph+)," I guess all those recommendations and innings limits should be scrapped. What a relief!! Keep throwing those sidearm curve balls, boys. You're good!
Agree.... bballman, I'd like to hear your take on 'proper mechanics do not hurt arms' (even either 1- at a younger age, and/or 2- unless they are throwing 65 MPH).
I'd have to say more shoulder and elbows are damaged, by not so much of OVER use, as improper technique. But I'm not a Dr. I just stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night. |
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dad4kids
109 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2015 : 20:28:49
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My understanding of bballman's post was that coaches should constitute their rosters to ensure that there's enough kids so that the pitching load doesn't fall disproportionately on a select few. Sounds like good advice to me. Usually coaches (parents) have thin rosters because parents are worried about little Johnny's Jimmy's playing time. Then kids start falling out with overuse injuries and they're scrambling. Smarter approach is to have more kids on the team to avoid those problems to begin with. Kids need the rest and parents just need to get over their lil' Chipper sitting some for his own good.
Apologies for not using the sarcasm font earlier but the causes of arm injuries for youth pitchers are infinitely more complex than "throwing more than 65 mph." Dr. Andrews and the medical community are still trying to figure out why some players suffer UCL and shoulder injuries at all age levels amongst all the variables out there (including mechanics, overuse, genetics, etc.). But, hey, maybe that's because they haven't read this internet message blog!! |
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turntwo
955 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2015 : 21:32:28
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quote:
Originally posted by dad4kids
My understanding of bballman's post was that coaches should constitute their rosters to ensure that there's enough kids so that the pitching load doesn't fall disproportionately on a select few. Sounds like good advice to me. Usually coaches (parents) have thin rosters because parents are worried about little Johnny's Jimmy's playing time. Then kids start falling out with overuse injuries and they're scrambling. Smarter approach is to have more kids on the team to avoid those problems to begin with. Kids need the rest and parents just need to get over their lil' Chipper sitting some for his own good.
Apologies for not using the sarcasm font earlier but the causes of arm injuries for youth pitchers are infinitely more complex than "throwing more than 65 mph." Dr. Andrews and the medical community are still trying to figure out why some players suffer UCL and shoulder injuries at all age levels amongst all the variables out there (including mechanics, overuse, genetics, etc.). But, hey, maybe that's because they haven't read this internet message blog!!
I asked bballman his advice, because his son is a VERY accomplished collegiate pitcher. Maybe his view would differ from 'mechanics aren't important at a young age'. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2015 : 22:36:51
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quote:
Originally posted by dad4kids
My understanding of bballman's post was that coaches should constitute their rosters to ensure that there's enough kids so that the pitching load doesn't fall disproportionately on a select few.
Yes, that is what I meant. I also agree with your assessment you posted.
quote:
Originally posted by turntwo
bballman, I'd like to hear your take on 'proper mechanics do not hurt arms' (even either 1- at a younger age, and/or 2- unless they are throwing 65 MPH).
I think the injury thing is very complicated. The doctors who are experts are not even sure exactly what the deal is. What I think is just my opinion - and I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn.
I think there are many factors that go into injury. Maybe the biggest thing is genetics. Some people just have stronger ligaments, tendons, muscles, bones, etc... For some people, no matter what they do, they are prone to injury. For some, regardless of what they do, they may not get injured.
With that being said, I do believe that certain things can affect whether a player - pitcher in particular - winds up with an injury. The major things are overuse, pitching while fatigued, mechanics and yes, velocity. I'll take them one by one.
Overuse - while I don't believe there are "so many bullets in the gun", I believe that every pitch does some damage to the body. Being in shape physically helps with that because stronger muscles help protect tendons, ligaments and joints. But over time, the damage that is created by throwing has a cumulative effect and will catch up with someone. I think the experts believe this as well - hence the focus on pitch count limits.
Pitching while fatigued - there are two things that are affected here. One is muscles have gotten tired and are less able to protect the tendons, ligaments and joints. They become more prone to damage. The other is mechanics suffer as a result. I believe when mechanics suffer, players are more prone to injury.
Poor mechanics - I think mechanics are very specific to individual pitchers. However, there are certain principles which apply to everyone. For instance, I think a pitcher should never let his elbow drop below a line extending from shoulder to shoulder. Whether a pitcher throws "over the top", "3/4", "sidearm" or "submarine", this principle applies. The difference in these pitchers is the tilt of the shoulders. But, the elbow remains on a line extending from shoulder to shoulder. When fatigue starts to set in, the elbow drops below that line and added stress is put on the shoulder and elbow. There are other mechanical principles that should be adhered to that I just don't have the time to get into, but the principle is the same - when a pitcher gets tired, mechanics suffer and injury risk increases. And I do think mechanics matter at any age. Do what you can to protect your pitcher. Even if bad mechanics did not hurt the young pitcher, he is establishing bad habits that will be very difficult to change as he gets older. Might as well start doing things the right way from early on.
Velocity - ASMI has put out studies that show that a UCL "should" break at a velocity of 85 mph. They have tested and measured the amount of stress put on a UCL while pitching. Then they have taken the UCLs from cadavers and stressed them to the point that they snapped. That point is equivalent to a pitcher throwing 85 mph. Keep in mind that is for adults, not kids. I don't think there is a magic number for kids. I think every kid tries to throw hard. I think the the more you push the limits of how hard you throw, the more chances of injury. So, if one kid is trying to throw as hard as he can and it is only 40 mph, he is at just as much risk as the kid trying to throw as hard as he can and throws 70 mph. I think this because I think the kid throwing 40 mph probably has weaker muscles, tendons, ligaments and growth plates than the kid throwing 70 mph. For kids, I don't think it matters so much how hard you throw, but how hard you are trying to throw. It's not necessarily the velocity, but how much stress can your soft tissue handle before things give out.
Put all these together, mix and match them (genetics, how many pitches you throw, whether you pitch when tired, mechanics and velocity) and there is a chance of injury. No one knows what the right mix is. The question is, how do you minimize the chance for injury while still doing what you need to improve and get better? One way to work on getting better and lowering your chances of injury is to limit the number of pitches you throw. Another is to develop sound mechanics that will help reduce the chance of injury. There is no point in anyone throwing when they are fatigued. It is not smart whether you are a 9 yr. old kid or a 25 yr. old MLB player. Nothing good can come of that. There is nothing you can do about genetics. And you want to throw hard. Unless you throw hard, you will not be able to throw harder. Hope that makes sense.
So, when it comes down to it, there are three things to do to reduce chance of injury. Keep your pitch counts within recommended guidelines, work on solid mechanics and don't throw when fatigued. These will not eliminate injury, but they should decrease the chance of injury.
I'm sure I didn't hit on everything in my mind, but I hope I at least made a somewhat coherent statement here. I'll clarify anything that doesn't make sense to people if asked. |
Edited by - bballman on 09/12/2015 10:21:44 |
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turntwo
955 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2015 : 08:56:45
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| Thanks for the breakdown Bballman! And I agree. Personally, I don't want to see my kid over-used, or to be honest, pitch that much at all, at the younger ages. But MOST importantly, I want his mechanics to be sound and solid, so that if he's called upon, he does it properly to limit injury (before overuse, before fatigued, before velocity). To me, it starts with mechanics. |
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USSSA Pitch Counts
