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momstheword
12 Posts |
 Posted - 09/03/2015 : 09:28:27
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| Feeling the pinch to play HS fall ball when our son also plays travel ball. How do families make this work from a time, balance, and money perspective. Can HS coaches really demand this? |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2015 : 10:12:36
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It is well know that HS ball trumps Travel Ball. Every Travel Ball coach knows this. Typically in 14u and up the actual playing in the spring doesn't happen until the conclusion of HS ball. So if you have been use to late February to mid June you need to push that back to late April to late July.
As for the Fall many coaches try to have Fall only players to accompany the non high school playing kids to their fall tourneys, or if a HS kid has a Sunday or weekend off from HS they can play with their travel team.
You are entering the age of having to think of your travel team as more of a summer team. As for time and balance, each family has to figure that out. I have heard of kids that have to be woken at 5am to do their homework, and kids that have 6am practice so there homework has to be done the night before. Everyone has to find their own pace and speed to see what works. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2015 : 10:54:16
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
It is well know that HS ball trumps Travel Ball. Every Travel Ball coach knows this.
True in the spring. Not so true in the fall.
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
As for the Fall many coaches try to have Fall only players to accompany the non high school playing kids to their fall tourneys, or if a HS kid has a Sunday or weekend off from HS they can play with their travel team.
I'm guessing you are talking about fall travel here?
Keep in mind, a fall HS team is NOT officially a HS team. Due to GHSA regulations, the HS coach CANNOT coach a fall team. I believe, generally speaking, someone else runs this team. Either a dad or a paid travel coach or someone from the school but not on the baseball staff. Some schools probably take it more seriously than others. In other words, in some schools, the coach will follow up with whoever is running the program to get feedback on the kids. Some coaches don't really care about what's going on. I've heard of some in which a dad wants to run the program thinking he's helping the team. Coach basically thinks it can't hurt anything and allows them to use the HS field for practices and games, but has no further involvement.
Either way, it is technically not something that is mandatory in the fall. It would be against GHSA rules for it to be mandatory or for the coach to be directly involved.
My advice would be to have your travel team be the priority and try to make some of the HS fall stuff when you can. Definitely have your son have a talk about this with the HS fall coach prior to the season starting. Have him talk to his travel coach as well so that things are coordinated and if he's a pitcher, he doesn't get overused.
If your son is good enough, the HS coach will not let his decision to play fall ball affect anything in regard to the spring season. He will want him on the field. |
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ngred10
17 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2015 : 11:10:40
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| I am confused, my understanding is the GHSA strictly limits the coaches ability to work with the HS players during the Fall. How can they be playing tourneys? |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2015 : 11:54:21
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quote:
Originally posted by bballman
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
It is well know that HS ball trumps Travel Ball. Every Travel Ball coach knows this.
True in the spring. Not so true in the fall.
quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
As for the Fall many coaches try to have Fall only players to accompany the non high school playing kids to their fall tourneys, or if a HS kid has a Sunday or weekend off from HS they can play with their travel team.
I'm guessing you are talking about fall travel here?
Keep in mind, a fall HS team is NOT officially a HS team. Due to GHSA regulations, the HS coach CANNOT coach a fall team. I believe, generally speaking, someone else runs this team. Either a dad or a paid travel coach or someone from the school but not on the baseball staff. Some schools probably take it more seriously than others. In other words, in some schools, the coach will follow up with whoever is running the program to get feedback on the kids. Some coaches don't really care about what's going on. I've heard of some in which a dad wants to run the program thinking he's helping the team. Coach basically thinks it can't hurt anything and allows them to use the HS field for practices and games, but has no further involvement.
Either way, it is technically not something that is mandatory in the fall. It would be against GHSA rules for it to be mandatory or for the coach to be directly involved.
My advice would be to have your travel team be the priority and try to make some of the HS fall stuff when you can. Definitely have your son have a talk about this with the HS fall coach prior to the season starting. Have him talk to his travel coach as well so that things are coordinated and if he's a pitcher, he doesn't get overused.
If your son is good enough, the HS coach will not let his decision to play fall ball affect anything in regard to the spring season. He will want him on the field.
bballman is knowledgeable in all things baseball.....BUT....I know of a Cherokee county school that requires Fall participation for at the very least Freshman. I knew a 9th grader last year that was told if he didn't play in the Fall he wouldn't be considered for the Spring team. Real Coaches aren't allowed to coach the Fall team but that doesn't stop coaches from watching those games.
Bottom line, BBallman is rarely wrong on anything involving baseball, and I am often confused on a LOT, so you might want to actually ask the Fall Ball coach what the ramifications are of not playing in the Fall with the HS. |
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DecaturDad
619 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2015 : 12:04:00
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I agree with BBallman.
At my son's school, they "request" that any player not playing another fall sport, play fall ball. The team is not coached by the HS coach. My son also plays on a travel team. The travel team takes priority. For example, both teams had practice last night. He attended the travel practice. For games, the travel team will also take priority. But at the same time, he enjoys the low stress of the HS fall ball, so it is just something "fun". I guess if a player is on the bubble as far as making the team, shining in the fall would help. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2015 : 12:31:55
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CaCO3Girl, if that coach is saying that, he is violating GHSA rules. Participation outside of the official season cannot be mandatory.
From the GHSA website:
2.69 Legal practice dates are established for each activity (see the calendar at the beginning of this publication),
and schools shall not conduct or allow an illegal practice.
(a) The beginning of each GHSA school year is designated as August 1st.
(b) Illegal practices are defined as practices involving three or more students participating in any
extracurricular activity in the presence of, or under the direct or indirect supervision of any coach of the
school (including a community coach). At any given point in time, only one (1) coach in a sport may work
with up to two (2) athletes in skill-building drills.
(1) Any practice occurring after the beginning of the school year and before the opening of the
designated season is an illegal practice.
(2) Any practice occurring after the end of the season for that team and the end of the school year for
students in that school is an illegal practice.
(3) During the summer (i.e., between the ending of one school year and the beginning of the next) the
only restrictions on practices and competition are that all activities must be strictly voluntary, and
the “Dead Week” must be observed, as follows: Schools are prohibited from participating in voluntary
workouts, camps and/or clinics, weight training or competitions during the week (Sunday through
Saturday) in which the Fourth of July falls each year.
(4) It is illegal for a team to go to a competitive or instructional camp or clinic during the school year
other than in-season events designed for that team alone.
(a) If the event is held out of season, it would constitute an illegal practice.
(b) If the event is held in-season, it would involve illegal coaching.
(c) Boys and girls teams in the same sport are considered the same activity.
(d) This prohibition does not apply to the summer months.
(5) Neither coaches, former coaches (including community coaches), nor any other school personnel
shall suggest, require, or otherwise attempt to influence students to participate in or practice for
a sport outside the GHSA-designated season.
(6) The following activities are examples of illegal practices:
(a) interscholastic scrimmages or practice competitions not in compliance with By-Law 2.62e
(b) practices involving alumni or students who presently are not eligible at the member school at
any time in the school year
(c) practices against a non-school team at any time in the school year
(d) practices of any kind outside the season designated by the GHSA.
NOTE: Free Style and Greco-Roman Wrestling are considered to be the same sport as Folk Style (high
school) Wrestling and are subject to GHSA rules regulating illegal practices.
(7) Coaches are allowed to be spectators or “fellow competitors” at non-school events out of season
as long as no coaching occurs.
40 GEORGIA HIGH SCHOOL ASSOCIATION
(8) Schools found guilty of having illegal practices will be subject to penalties that may include a fine,
warning, probation, and/or suspension by the GHSA Executive Director.
(c) A GHSA coach (certified teacher or community coach) may not coach a non-GHSA team in a competitive
setting during the school year that includes any player(s) who participate in the sport he/she coaches at
the member school. EXCEPTION: In a situation in which the child or step-child of the coach is the only
player on a non-school team from the coach’s school, the coach would be exempted from this rule.
Like I said, if what you are describing is actually happening, it is illegal. Not saying it doesn't happen, but they are skirting the rules...
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bballguy15
63 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2015 : 12:35:54
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Lets make this very simple for everyone. As a travel coach in the upper age groups for a premier program and High School coach, when it comes down to it, the best thing for the kid to do is play against the best competition possible. With that being said, most of the top 500 players in the state are still playing with their summer teams in the fall trying to make it to Jupiter for the Perfect Game World Championship and most travel to Ft. Myers for the Underclassmen World Championship.
With that being said, when it comes spring time and tryout time, the high school coach is going to do whats best for his job and that is take the most talented players no matter where they played their fall ball. So this is where each parent and kid has to be honest with them self.
High School rosters usually have 20 kids on them, give or take. Of those 20 Varsity kids, 18 or so will be the 18 most talented kids at the school, regardless of where they played their fall ball. The last 2 spots are usually a toss up between 5 or 6 kids that are very similar in talent level. The high school coach will then pick those two spots based on where THOSE 5 or 6 played in the fall as well as which parents are more "politically" connected. Same thing goes for JV and Freshman teams. If you think your son is one of the more talented Sophomores or Freshman than they need to be playing elite level travel ball. But again, if you think your son is on the bubble than the best place for him is at the high school fall team and summer teams.
So if you, as a parent, think your kid is in that bubble range then your best bet is to play for the high school fall ball team as well as their summer team (usually coached by a Varsity Asst.) But if you think your kid is one of the more talented kids at the school then you should be playing for a elite level summer program. |
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wareagle
324 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2015 : 13:26:23
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Ask the coach and explain your situation. Most are very flexible in the fall and winter and they are generally missing kids due to other sports as well.
I think the way that I have heard it put is "Not mandatory, but keep in mind that if you are not there, someone else is going to be there trying to compete for a spot".
In most cases it can be balanced but each program is different. If the coach is insistent that they participate, then talk to your son and see which is more important to them. |
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CaCO3Girl
1989 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2015 : 14:34:17
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quote:
Originally posted by bballman
CaCO3Girl, if that coach is saying that, he is violating GHSA rules. Participation outside of the official season cannot be mandatory.
From the GHSA website:
2.69 Legal practice dates are established for each activity (see the calendar at the beginning of this publication),
and schools shall not conduct or allow an illegal practice.
(a) The beginning of each GHSA school year is designated as August 1st.
(b) Illegal practices are defined as practices involving three or more students participating in any
extracurricular activity in the presence of, or under the direct or indirect supervision of any coach of the
school (including a community coach). At any given point in time, only one (1) coach in a sport may work
with up to two (2) athletes in skill-building drills.
(1) Any practice occurring after the beginning of the school year and before the opening of the
designated season is an illegal practice.
(2) Any practice occurring after the end of the season for that team and the end of the school year for
students in that school is an illegal practice.
(3) During the summer (i.e., between the ending of one school year and the beginning of the next) the
only restrictions on practices and competition are that all activities must be strictly voluntary, and
the “Dead Week” must be observed, as follows: Schools are prohibited from participating in voluntary
workouts, camps and/or clinics, weight training or competitions during the week (Sunday through
Saturday) in which the Fourth of July falls each year.
(4) It is illegal for a team to go to a competitive or instructional camp or clinic during the school year
other than in-season events designed for that team alone.
(a) If the event is held out of season, it would constitute an illegal practice.
(b) If the event is held in-season, it would involve illegal coaching.
(c) Boys and girls teams in the same sport are considered the same activity.
(d) This prohibition does not apply to the summer months.
(5) Neither coaches, former coaches (including community coaches), nor any other school personnel
shall suggest, require, or otherwise attempt to influence students to participate in or practice for
a sport outside the GHSA-designated season.
(6) The following activities are examples of illegal practices:
(a) interscholastic scrimmages or practice competitions not in compliance with By-Law 2.62e
(b) practices involving alumni or students who presently are not eligible at the member school at
any time in the school year
(c) practices against a non-school team at any time in the school year
(d) practices of any kind outside the season designated by the GHSA.
NOTE: Free Style and Greco-Roman Wrestling are considered to be the same sport as Folk Style (high
school) Wrestling and are subject to GHSA rules regulating illegal practices.
(7) Coaches are allowed to be spectators or “fellow competitors” at non-school events out of season
as long as no coaching occurs.
40 GEORGIA HIGH SCHOOL ASSOCIATION
(8) Schools found guilty of having illegal practices will be subject to penalties that may include a fine,
warning, probation, and/or suspension by the GHSA Executive Director.
(c) A GHSA coach (certified teacher or community coach) may not coach a non-GHSA team in a competitive
setting during the school year that includes any player(s) who participate in the sport he/she coaches at
the member school. EXCEPTION: In a situation in which the child or step-child of the coach is the only
player on a non-school team from the coach’s school, the coach would be exempted from this rule.
Like I said, if what you are describing is actually happening, it is illegal. Not saying it doesn't happen, but they are skirting the rules...
How is it different than the HS coach making it mandatory for the player to be on the HS summer team or he can't be on the Spring team? |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2015 : 15:09:45
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quote:
Originally posted by CaCO3Girl
How is it different than the HS coach making it mandatory for the player to be on the HS summer team or he can't be on the Spring team?
It's not any different at all. If the HS coaches are doing that, they are pushing the limits of the rules as well.
Technically, they can just cut a kid for "performance" reasons, but in reality they cut him for not showing up.
I know this, you can bet the coaches don't put any of this "mandatory" out of season participation stuff in writing!! Every one of them knows the rules. Some try to do it anyway, some respect the summer travel season. But every one of them know it is against the rules to make it "mandatory". |
Edited by - bballman on 09/03/2015 15:20:34 |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 09/03/2015 : 16:14:03
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It's not "mandatory" in writing or verbally, but what you'll hear is something along the lines of;
"If you have a bad tryout, then that's all I have to go on. If I get to see you in fall and summer, then you have a bad tryout, I have a better body of your work to make decisions. If having to choose between a kid I've seen all fall and summer or another kid who didn't make himself a no-brainer choice, then I'll go with what I know."
bballguy nailed it. If you're on the bubble and you want to play, then you need to do everything you can to help yourself. If you're confident that you're a no-brainer, then roll with it. A coach isn't going to cut a kid with excellent talent because they didn't play for the program in the off-season. But make sure you are using the coaches goggles and not your parent goggles when making the assessment of being a no-brainer or not.
Also, someone mentioned earlier in this thread that some assistant coaches may coach these fall and summer teams. None of the official rostered coaches can coach these teams. They can use dads, former players, hired guns, etc., but the GHSA prevents any of the coaches, not just the head coach. Bballman has it highlighted in red from the GHSA above. |
Edited by - in_the_know on 09/03/2015 16:21:33 |
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LFconcessions
29 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2015 : 10:18:09
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Many here are surfacing valid points (based on my son entering his sophomore year) but really agree with wareagle to reach out to the HS coach.
Last year my son was another freshman unknown to the coaches, and one of the better pieces of advice we received was.... take advantage of the HS workouts, 2-on-1s, so the coaches can see more of his abilities before tryouts.
Our HS has a new coach (again) this year and he completely understood the fall challenge. This years coach had a very different response that we were pretty happy with...... HS Coach wanted to make sure our son attended HS workouts (but not all), understood the importance of individual strength/speed training + fall baseball - but also wanted to make sure his body has time to recover, and not overextend him.
Definitely recommend talking with the coach.
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baseball_fan
72 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2015 : 08:08:38
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| No sense on burning them out ... My son(freshman) practices every day after school for two hours with this high school baseball team and that is all we are doing this fall.... In my opinion between that and homework that is Pwani what the kids get some rest but will have plenty of baseball the play in the spring and summer next year |
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bballguy15
63 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2015 : 14:19:05
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quote:
Originally posted by in_the_know
Also, someone mentioned earlier in this thread that some assistant coaches may coach these fall and summer teams. None of the official rostered coaches can coach these teams. They can use dads, former players, hired guns, etc., but the GHSA prevents any of the coaches, not just the head coach. Bballman has it highlighted in red from the GHSA above.
This may be in the rules, but it is not enforced. Almost every single summer High School team is coached by a Varsity Asst Coach or JV Coach. Not to mention, every single elite level showcase team is coached by high school coaches, most with multiple players from their school on it. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2015 : 15:44:07
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Fall and summer are different. Summer is outside of the actual school year, therefore falls under a different set of rules. In addition to the above, here is a situational citation from the rulebook concerning fall:
"SITUATION: A student participates in a Fall baseball league offered in the community (while school is in
session), and the high school coaches assists with the practices of this team.
INTERPRETATION: This is a violation of GHSA rules for coaching out-of-season"
In regard to summer, here is the only rule. It is also in the above statement I posted, but not highlighted because we were talking about fall:
"(3) During the summer (i.e., between the ending of one school year and the beginning of the next) the
only restrictions on practices and competition are that all activities must be strictly voluntary, and
the “Dead Week” must be observed, as follows: Schools are prohibited from participating in voluntary
workouts, camps and/or clinics, weight training or competitions during the week (Sunday through
Saturday) in which the Fourth of July falls each year."
And here is a situational citation in regard to summer participation:
"SITUATION: A certified teacher who coaches at a member school gives instruction and/or coaches in a
non-school Summer program that continues into Fall semester. What are the restrictions on the coach?
INTERPRETATION: The Summer activity is unrestricted as long as the students’ participation is voluntary.
After the GHSA school year begins in the Fall, the following conditions must be met:
(a) If the students are in the school where the teacher coaches, no more than two can meet with the coach
in skill-building drills at any point in time out of season.
(b) If the student is from a school other than the one at which the teacher coaches, the student must
voluntarily attend any instruction session or competition with the Summer activity without any direct or
indirect influence from the school the student attends.
(c) If any student transfers to the school where the teacher coaches, it would be prima facie evidence of
undue influence and penalties could result. NOTE: This interpretation also applies to Community
Coaches."
So, coaches can coach a team in the summer, but they CANNOT make it mandatory... |
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AJC_533
1 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2015 : 16:18:58
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For what its worth, As long as the activities start after the last day of school and end prior to August 1st, a high school coach is able to coach travel ball. He could also lead a school team as long as the 'dead week' is observed and that participation is 'voluntary'.
From the rule book..
During the summer (i.e., between the ending of one school year and the beginning of the next) the
only restrictions on practices and competition are that all activities must be strictly voluntary, and
the “Dead Week” must be observed, as follows: Schools are prohibited from participating in voluntary
workouts, camps and/or clinics, weight training or competitions during the week (Sunday through
Saturday) in which the Fourth of July falls each year |
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HS Fall Ball
