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rippit
667 Posts |
 Posted - 07/24/2015 : 13:39:17
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My son is coming down to the wire on having to make some decisions to narrow the choices down and I am trying to help but haven't the slightest idea about how academic money fits into the equation.
Let's take 3 options: D1, Ivy and D3. All are high academic, well respected schools with lots of money. Let's pretend they are all 60K tuition, room and board private or out of state schools.
After 25% athletic money from the D1 school, where does the other 45K come from? I know there is some sort of parent contribution required by each school and I know about Net Price Calculators.
Now for the Ivy and D3. No athletic money, but at what point and how is the topic of "academic" money broached? My son can't make a commitment without knowing the financial burden that will be placed on him. I also know Ivy has a "likely" letter rahter than an actual offer letter like a D1.
SOMEBODY WHO KNOWS THIS STUFF PLEASE HELP! |
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RamblinWreck93
41 Posts |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2015 : 15:08:07
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OK, I'll take a stab at this.
D1 - the 25% athletic money should cover 25% of the total cost of attendance at the school. It should include 25% of tuition, room, board, books, food, etc... The student can talk with admissions to find out what kind of academic money may be available to them. This amount of money will have 100% to do with the student's academics and must be based on the same standards that the school would consider with other students - no athletics taken into account. There may also be need based money such as grants. This is found out through following the FAFSA process. Through FAFSA, the student may also be eligible for student loans from Uncle Sam. And then there are private loans that may be taken out. I would suggest you talk to the admissions department as well as the financial aid department to find out what their qualifications are for academic and need based awards are. Hope that makes sense.
Ivy - My understanding is that with the Ivy League, there is no athletic money and there is no academic money. Any break you get on the costs of the school will depend totally on need based criteria. In other words, if you make below a certain amount, they will pay for like 90% of the cost. If you make between xx and xxx, you will get a certain percentage. And if you make over xxx, you will be responsible for all costs.
D3 - There is no athletic money available. Beyond that, the situation is similar to the D1 scenario except that some high academic D3s have donor grants and other funds available to distribute to students. The better your academics are, the more you could potentially get. There may also be some need based money available. It is best to talk to the admissions and FA departments and see where you might fit in with those options. From what I have heard, they can give you a pretty good idea about what you are looking at and what you will be responsible for long before your son sets foot on the campus.
With any of these, it takes a lot of work to figure out what exactly you will wind up being responsible for. Conditions vary not only from division to division, but school to school. There are many resources at each school who will be willing to help, but you need to make the calls and ask the questions.
NCAA D1 & D2 both have what's called a National Letter of Intent. What that is, is basically a contract stating that the school is offering a certain percentage or dollar amount of athletic money and the athlete is accepting that money. These usually are for one year at a time. Although some of the big D1 conferences are offering 4 year commitments. So when you sign D1 or D2, you are actually signing a commitment letter. Ivy has some up with the "likely" letter since there is no NLI. It really is something they have done so that student athletes actually have something to sign on "signing day". Previous to that, they just "faked it" when the D1 & D2 athletes were actually signing their NLIs.
Hope this helps a little. |
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whits23
596 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2015 : 16:02:33
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bballman for a stab that was pretty good. IVY was very close.
The hardest thing with academic is doing the admissions thing before knowing what you can actually get. We did that with several.
Although academic money never goes away unless your grades fall. Athletic can go after a year. Sometimes if they want to back out on money they will say you paperwork got turned down in admissions LOL
Some places will find a way to give you meal cards and other small perks. They can find some unique scholarships you all of a sudden become eligible for too. Usually named after some 14th century explorer or a well known car dealer.
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2015 : 16:11:48
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bballman nailed it.
In addition to Athletic money and Academic money, there is the Financial Need money that some schools bring into play (i.e., Vanderbilt, Stanford, etc). The university sets their criteria on the parameters around that portion. Below are a couple of interesting reads on the topic. The second article is particular interesting as it mentions the lottery states (GA) and how 30% (at UGA) are able to retain HOPE through their playing career. Most offers from GA schools are XX after HOPE, which is to say, they'll pick up XX% after HOPE and if you kid doesn't qualify for or loses HOPE while there, you're on the hook for that money. When comparing offers, always try and back it out to two basic numbers for comparison. First, what is the actual dollar figure the school is offering (i.e., 50% at Vanderbilt, which is roughly $63k/yr is a lot different than 50% at UGA for an in-state player). Also, to that same point, how much out of pocket will it cost you per year. If comparing an in state school with HOPE, calculate the value with and without HOPE so you can consider worst case cost scenario.
Also, with the Power 5 conferences, while the scholarships remain renewable year over year (unless the school guarantees more than one year at time you sign NLI), they can no longer not renew the scholarship for performance within the sport. They voted that through in January.
http://www.vanderbilthustler.com/sports/baseball/article_072f2e56-9912-11e3-9cb7-001a4bcf6878.html
http://www.baseballamerica.com/college/stretching-scholarship-dollars-key-college-success/ |
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rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2015 : 21:55:13
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| I'm still confused as to where the commitment comes in from tge baseball teams Ivy and D3. Sounds like he's jus applying to go to school and finding money on his own in order to try out for the team. There has to be something more there? |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2015 : 23:29:25
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quote:
Originally posted by rippit
I'm still confused as to where the commitment comes in from tge baseball teams Ivy and D3. Sounds like he's jus applying to go to school and finding money on his own in order to try out for the team. There has to be something more there?
The commitment for Ivy and D3 is basically just the coach's word. There is no guarantee that any player will make the roster. If you have talked to the coach and he has let you know that he is interested, he may offer you a spot on the team, but essentially, it is just the opportunity to earn a spot on the roster and a spot in the lineup. There are no guarantees. Many of these programs will have 50-60 players show up in the fall and wind up with 30-35 on the spring roster. Some may keep 45 players on the spring roster, but that means that a lot of players will not see much play time.
You will have to spend some time talking with the coach and getting a feel for how much he wants your son. Talk to previous and current players and their families to see how the process worked for them and how the coach held up to his word.
Even in NCAA D1 & D2, the only commitment is that once the NLI is signed, that player will get that scholarship money for that year. It does not guarantee a roster spot and it does not guarantee any play time at all. Only the money. And beyond that athletic scholarship money, no guarantee is made for any other money.
If a coach really wants you for an Ivy or D3, they should offer to help you walk through the admissions and financial aid process. The criteria that needs to be met are the same criteria as any other student, but he may be able to help you navigate through the process and introduce you to the right people. Any academic money with a D3 will be contingent on the student athlete keeping his grades up where he remains eligible for those awards. If you get in an Ivy League school, the money available will remain as long as the income requirements of the parents remain the same and within their guidelines.
Bottom line is college baseball is VERY competitive regardless of the level. No guarantees of anything baseball wise. No guarantee of receiving financial assistance. No guarantee of keeping your athletic money (except for those few power 5 D1 conferences that have decided to offer 4 year scholarships). Everything is earned - whether it be on the field or in the classroom. Except for Ivy in which everything financially depends solely on parents income. |
Edited by - bballman on 07/25/2015 06:58:30 |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2015 : 10:34:26
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quote:
Originally posted by bballman
If a coach really wants you for an Ivy or D3, they should offer to help you walk through the admissions and financial aid process. The criteria that needs to be met are the same criteria as any other student, but he may be able to help you navigate through the process and introduce you to the right people. Any academic money with a D3 will be contingent on the student athlete keeping his grades up where he remains eligible for those awards. If you get in an Ivy League school, the money available will remain as long as the income requirements of the parents remain the same and within their guidelines.
That is exactly what gives you an indication of how important your son is to the baseball coach. If they really want him, they'll work their tails off to guide you through the process and find as many financial resources they're able to get you there. Friend of mine has a son playing Lacrosse at Berry. They are well versed at lining up all the academic and financial need money they can in front of a highly recruited player. However, as bballman noted, the coach can make no guarantees from his side. It's not his money to give whereas the athletic money is.
Whits hit on another great point. With those high academic schools, there is a good bit of anxiety on your part in going through all the application/acceptance, FAFSA, etc., up front to determine if your son will get in and what finances will be available. |
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rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2015 : 11:00:29
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Thanks bballman. That helps a lot.
One more question: son seems to think he has no shot at this point (rising senior) of getting an offer from an ACC or SEC school because of all the offers already extended to guys before even their junior year. I say if a coach sees you as a better option this fall because he's hitting his stride and that since no NLOIs have been signed yet that he could potentially take somebody's spot. Yes or no? |
Edited by - rippit on 07/25/2015 13:32:02 |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2015 : 14:37:06
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Is it a possibility? Sure. However, the big question is, have and ACC or SEC teams shown any interest in him? If yes, there is still a possibility. If he has had no interest, then it's pretty much a long shot. However, keep this in mind as well. If he hasn't gotten an actual offer yet from one of those schools, he's not high on their list. The probability of getting that offer and being an impact player are pretty slim.
The market will determine where a player belongs. If he's not getting calls from big D1 schools, by omission, they are telling you that's not where he belongs. If the Ivy's and D3s are making the most inquiries and showing the most interest, they are telling you that's where he belongs.
Have you looked into other possibilities? D2, JUCO, NAIA? Sometimes JUCO is a good option if you feel like your son has some growing and improving to do. Many kids will go to a JUCO, develop for a couple of years and get picked up by a D1 after that. Maybe a good D2 is an option. I don't know your son or what kind of interest he has garnered, but the general saying is, Go where you are wanted. Sometimes the option is going to a big D1 and sitting on the bench or going to a D2 or D3 and getting a bunch of play time right from the start. Things are competitive enough. No matter where a player goes, he will be competing with a whole team of other players who were the best in their school, town, conference in HS. Going into a school with a coach who already likes you and believes you can play from the beginning goes a long way to getting opportunities on the field.
I know that was a long winded answer to a yes or no question, but I hope it gives you a little more insight. |
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bbsis
42 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2015 : 16:48:35
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| bballman, obviously, walk-ons have the least interest of all but are there generally a few spots for walk-ons since they have already been admitted to the school (assuming they have talent to compete)? |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2015 : 20:39:33
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Well, depends on what kind of walk-on you are talking about.
Most schools have a fall tryout for the team. Your chances of making the team this way is slim to none. My son plays for a D2 team. The coach has been there for 18 years. Last year was the first year he ever took on a kid from a fall tryout. And he got red shirted his first year.
If you are talking about being a recruited walk on or a walk on that has talked to the coach the coach has told you that he wants you on the team, then your chances are much better. D1 teams can only give scholarships to a maximum of 27 players. And they carry a 35 player roster. So, at least 8 players have to be walk ons. But, they are usually there at the coach's request. They are also usually kids that have high academics and can get a bunch of money from academics and don't really need the baseball money. Schools other than D1 don't have a limit on the number of players that can be on scholarship, but they usually don't have everyone on scholarship. I know D2 only has 9 scholarships available. I could find the NAIA and JUCO numbers, but I don't have time right now. But, there will always be walk ons on every team. Just don't show up unknown to anyone to tryout for a team and have high expectations to make the team. Odds are very low. |
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docdee
3 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2015 : 20:55:48
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| Since this subject comes up fairly frequently and is both important and complicated there should be a forum devoted to it. How about it mods? |
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gemofthehills
2 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2015 : 23:04:48
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| Ivy League is DI. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2015 : 08:33:42
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quote:
Originally posted by gemofthehills
Ivy League is DI.
Yes, they are. But, they live by their own set of rules. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2015 : 09:17:35
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quote:
Originally posted by gemofthehills
Ivy League is DI.
They compete at DI level, however they do not follow the scholarship limitations for D1.
As previously and correctly stated, there are no Athletic scholarships at the Ivy's. There are also no Academic scholarships.
The only financial aid from the schools to attendees is based on Financial Need.
For those reasons, you can't have a conversation about athletic, academic and financial money and even begin to consider referring to the Ivy's as D1 since their financial structure is nothing like 99.9% of the D1 schools.
http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/information/psa/index |
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gemofthehills
2 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2015 : 14:56:19
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Horse of a different color is still a horse.
Ivys do allow their coaches to offer slots for admission based on athletic ability (academics should still be high level). Not sure of the criteria today but a few years back the family income had to be less than $200,000 to receive aid. |
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NF1974
62 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2015 : 16:00:35
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My son attends a D-3 high academic school. he was seen and recruited from the Honor Roll showcase that he attended between his junior and senior year. There were actually 6 schools that contacted him. We corresponded with the coachs' from 4 of these and we made a site visit to 2. At each visit we toured the school and met with the head coach. My son decided that he wanted to go to the school in Virgina. The head coach said that he wanted him but that he could make no guaranty that he would be on the team.He said that the first thing that had to be accomplished was for my son to " get accepted". He applied for early admission and got accepted. The coach was very involved in the process and would e mail my son to make sure that he got documents turned in etc.. This gave us a good feeling that he was serious about our son playing. When he was accepted we also applied for financial need based on both Academics and Need. I am a divorced dad and they took into consideration both my income and my ex's. they also looked at the fact that we have a daughter attending UGA. They looked at Tax returns etc.. to determine the level of support. They finally came back and said that he would receive 48k of a 58k annual tuition however they only guaranteed this amount for 2 years. They are going to take a look at the income(s) again and also take into the account that my daughter will no longer be at UGA.
He did make the team but we were nervous up until the day they finalized the roster. They did cut several boys even near the end of the Fall season. They only carried 27 players and 9 of these were PO's. Even though there is no limit to how many players they can carry, I guess they just wanted to have a manageable roster for coaching and traveling.
In addition to the aid they gave him, he was directed toward a couple of student loans through Fafsa. |
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rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2015 : 16:33:15
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Earn less than $200K...CHECK! Lol.
Official visits and unofficial visits?? I know you can't have anything official until the first day of your senior year. When a school offers an "I hope we can find a time to get you up here" what should the response be? (other than SURE THING COACH!)
I feel like he's missing out by not being vocal enough with the schools he wants to go to. He's kind of waiting for them, but this summer he hasn't had time to do anything but attend all the "mandatory" tournaments and events his summer team demanded he go to or he'd be KICKED OFF the team. I'm not kidding... Other than the coach running around bad mouthing him if he actually had been kicked off it might have been a blessing in disguise.
That's why I asked the question about some of the D1 schools being "full". He made a bad decision about what team to play with this summer and now has some work to do to make it up. But I hear what you are saying about being an impact player or not.
I have another question about schools with very high academic standards. How does a kid who has only taken college prep classes with a 2.5-3.0 GPA survive in a Wake or Duke or Carolina environment? |
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rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2015 : 20:34:30
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NF1974: thanks. That helps a bit.
But what if he hadn't made the team? Would they take everything away causing him to have to leave?? |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2015 : 21:03:30
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In regard to the 200k, keep in mind from what I've heard, there are tiers. So, if you are close to the 200k, you may only get 10 or 20%. 20% of 60k is $12,000. So you may still be responsible for 48k. Better check a school's need based tier system before jumping for joy.
That's a bummer about the summer coach. My son's 17u coach would let kids take off for individual camps or visits whenever they needed. After all, that is the goal of a summer team at that age, isn't it? For their players to get into a college to play baseball? At least it should have been. That's just wrong of his coach if you ask me.
And for your last question, I really don't think a kid with a 2.5 to 3.0 GPA will get into a Wake, Duke or Carolina. High academic schools have high academic admissions standards. They are not easy to get into. I've heard of kids with 3.8 GPAs not getting accepted to UGA. And they are not even a high academic school.
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rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2015 : 08:46:20
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I've heard of non sporting kids with 3.8s not getting into UGA, but athletes?????? I guess that's the point I'm eventually rambling toward. You have kids with verbal commits to high academic schools, one or two get shot down which opens the door. And yes I understand if they really wanted him they'd be knocking, but in light of circumstances unwritten here that have factored in, I think it's possible that with a little bit of legwork (okay a LOT) that they will eventually realize he's on the planet and available.
At the end of the day, and I really hate that phrase but I'm going to use it anyway, I think two things: 1 - too many players tend to jump on the first opportunity presented without thinking it through so they can tweet that they are blessed (gag me) and 2 - everything happens for a reason which is awesome if you fight your way through it and learn. I have total faith that the best thing for him will happen in the end. :)
Now, that could be D1 high academic or D3 high academic either very close by or very far away. Seems that in all our searching D2 and high academic just don't really get mentioned in the same sentence. And it's confusing how some schools with small enrollments (2500) are D1 while others with larger enrollments (6000+) are D3. But then you have some who have certain sports that play D1 while others play D3 not to mention some who have one sport in one conference and all the others in another.
Hold on - I think my brain is about to explode!
And yes. Very WRONG OF HIS COACH. If only I could tell you the entire story, but the story is still being written and will eventually have a happy ending. And, we are not alone. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2015 : 09:51:09
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Yes, it can get confusing. I don't know everything about the NCAA, but I believe that things have more to do with the curriculum a school offers and whether they WANT to be D1 or something else. I know my son's D2 school could, if they wanted, petition to be a D1 school. They have around 9,000 students. At this time, they don't want to do that. I know until around 2005 or 2006 or so, Kennesaw State was in their conference and then decided to go D1. I have heard of some schools having some D1 athletic teams and D2 or D3 with other teams. I honestly don't know how that works.
Hopefully, you've gotten a little more insight into all this from this thread. I wish you the best of luck. Definitely let us know how things turn out. |
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NF1974
62 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2015 : 16:03:08
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Rippit,
They cannot take the funds away if he did not make the team. They can take funds away if he does not maintain his grade average or he has some other Honor Code violation. |
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jacjacatk
154 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2015 : 20:20:55
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quote:
Originally posted by bballman
I've heard of kids with 3.8 GPAs not getting accepted to UGA. And they are not even a high academic school.
I considered it a safety school when I applied in the 80s, but UGA's middle 50% ACT score is 28-32 and the middle 50% of the Honors students is 32-34. That's easily on par with many high academic LACs. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2015 : 22:26:36
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quote:
Originally posted by jacjacatk
quote:
Originally posted by bballman
I've heard of kids with 3.8 GPAs not getting accepted to UGA. And they are not even a high academic school.
I considered it a safety school when I applied in the 80s, but UGA's middle 50% ACT score is 28-32 and the middle 50% of the Honors students is 32-34. That's easily on par with many high academic LACs.
Things have changed there for sure... |
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Athletic money disguised as Academic money
