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Buckner
44 Posts |
 Posted - 07/08/2014 : 09:20:03
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Hey all,
I am looking for some info about team prices. I have heard rumors that 643 and other "academy" type teams are 4K at the 15U level. What should we expect to pay at some of the well known academies? 643, Jackets, Team GA, etc.
Second part of the question: What alternatives are there? Are there any good programs that will develop a player at for his highest level of competition and still be affordable? or is travel ball just for the rich?
Thanks in advance
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rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2014 : 09:37:58
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Just my two cents: fall and spring/summer through 14u could be as high as 4K all in with the brand name organizations as much of it is that you are paying for the name. If your son is on the top tier team at one of these places, he most likely won't pay a penny as they have the lower tier team players soaking up your cost. At 15u and up, fees don't really change, but the spring/summer season changes so it seems shorter therefore you feel like you are paying more. 9-14u might play February through June, but 15u and up plays mid May through July.
Therefore, travel ball is not JUST for the rich. It can be for GREAT players with not much skin in the game, it can be for the rich (and sometimes blindly stupid), or it can be for the kid who loves the game and works his butt off to try and get to the next level.
That being said, don't think for one minute that any of those top players not paying actual "fees" don't spend money in other places to hone their skills. Private lessons are necessary. A good on field coach manages games. Rarely does he have the time to give private lessons to all the pitchers and catchers plus hitting instruction to everyone. You gotta go out and find the pitching and/or hitting instructor that works well for your kid and that can change as he matures.
Don't forget about the strength and conditioning in all of this. Your kid better get and stay in shape. Coaches will discount your player if he looks out of shape and he may get overshadowed or not given a chance or second look to shine. Coaches are looking for who LOOKS to be an athlete. You better work on this image. But at the end of the day, you are either an athlete, or you aren't.
Define "good" program? Some are purely money grabs. How to identify a money grab in a very small organization: you pay the same fees as another organization, have hardly any organized field practices , no winter workouts other than indoor BP or bull pens, play in inferior tournaments, end up playing in less tournaments than originally stated and have only 1 "paid" coach on the field. You wonder where all the money went and the answer is simple...in that "paid" coach's pocket (after tourney fees of course). In a large organization where the roster has 20+ guys on it, your practices might be 5 hours long with 100 kids on the field at once with 8 coaches but only one coach actually shows up for your games, a lot of your money is paying for the elite players.
The only program that will DEVELOP your player for the highest level of competition is WHAT YOU DO ON YOUR OWN combined with actually PLAYING against the top competition around. Notice I said PLAYING and not SITTING in the dugout.
We focus less on how good the team is and how well the player performs against all the same pitchers and teams the top teams are playing. Everybody wants a trophy...sure...but let's face it, we've all got plenty from over the years. Please don't depend on anybody else to promote your player. You've got to grab the lead on that whole deal.
Now a bunch of guys are about to jump on here and say "if your kid is good, the scouts will find him". I don't disagree. However, there are a LOT of players out there flying under the radar who can compete and haven't ever been noticed and they need someone to talk them up. Find just ONE guy out there who has some connections, align yourself with him, and watch what happens. Sure, it costs money to rent facility and field space, or maintain facility and field space, and I've never met anybody who will work for free. Tournaments DO cost money..although it's becoming ridiculous what you get for that money. So baseball DOES cost money and private lessons DO cost money, so plan wisely and make a decision early on what your player's objectives are. NOT YOURS.
Gettin' off my soapbox now.
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Edited by - rippit on 07/11/2014 09:51:00 |
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Newbie BB Mom
141 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2014 : 10:06:39
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quote:
Originally posted by rippit
Just my two cents: fall and spring/summer through 14u could be as high as 4K all in with the brand name organizations as much of it is that you are paying for the name. If your son is on the top tier team at one of these places, he most likely won't pay a penny as they have the lower tier team players soaking up your cost.
I have never heard this before. Is this true? I am sure top-tier teams at places like ECB have scholarship players who show great promise but could not otherwise afford the fees, but entire teams that don't pay anything and are subsidized by "lower tier" teams? |
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rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2014 : 10:20:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Newbie BB Mom
quote:
Originally posted by rippit
Just my two cents: fall and spring/summer through 14u could be as high as 4K all in with the brand name organizations as much of it is that you are paying for the name. If your son is on the top tier team at one of these places, he most likely won't pay a penny as they have the lower tier team players soaking up your cost.
I have never heard this before. Is this true? I am sure top-tier teams at places like ECB have scholarship players who show great promise but could not otherwise afford the fees, but entire teams that don't pay anything and are subsidized by "lower tier" teams?
Unfortunately...yes. I'll quantify the statement though. Subsidized by player fees, gate fees, tournament fees and corporate sponsors.
So in the end, if any one player in that organization pays, while another does not, the paying player is subsidizing the other player. Otherwise, why aren't ALL player fees lowered by the monies raised by the organization?
Something to chew on. |
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turntwo
955 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2014 : 16:24:23
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| I know in one 'academy' park that ALL tourneys hosted at the park are for their 'top tier' team. Every nickle of gate fees, concessions, and in some cases tourney entry fees go to those 5 teams (top team in each age group from 13 on up). When said park hosts 15-20 tourneys a year, there's no wonder it can afford to float those teams. I would seriously doubt if the 'lower tier' teams subsidize the top tier team. |
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rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2014 : 18:33:27
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Potato
Po tot oh
There are a ton of expenses those fees could cover to benefit everyone. Think about it. |
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SOGAS
143 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2014 : 19:07:24
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If I didn't know better I would think I wrote this. rippit is 100% on the money here!
quote:
Originally posted by rippit
Just my two cents: fall and spring/summer through 14u could be as high as 4K all in with the brand name organizations as much of it is that you are paying for the name. If your son is on the top tier team at one of these places, he most likely won't pay a penny as they have the lower tier team players soaking up your cost. At 15u and up, fees don't really change, but the spring/summer season changes so it seems shorter therefore you feel like you are paying more. 9-14u might play February through June, but 15u and up plays mid May through July.
Therefore, travel ball is not JUST for the rich. It can be for GREAT players with not much skin in the game, it can be for the rich (and sometimes blindly stupid), or it can be for the kid who loves the game and works his butt off to try and get to the next level.
That being said, don't think for one minute that any of those top players not paying actual "fees" don't spend money in other places to hone their skills. Private lessons are necessary. A good on field coach manages games. Rarely does he have the time to give private lessons to all the pitchers and catchers plus hitting instruction to everyone. You gotta go out and find the pitching and/or hitting instructor that works well for your kid and that can change as he matures.
Don't forget about the strength and conditioning in all of this. Your kid better get and stay in shape. Coaches will discount your player if he looks out of shape and he may get overshadowed or not given a chance or second look to shine. Coaches are looking for who LOOKS to be an athlete. You better work on this image. But at the end of the day, you are either an athlete, or you aren't.
Define "good" program? Some are purely money grabs. How to identify a money grab in a very small organization: you pay the same fees as another organization, have hardly any organized field practices , no winter workouts other than indoor BP or bull pens, play in inferior tournaments, end up playing in less tournaments than originally stated and have only 1 "paid" coach on the field. You wonder where all the money went and the answer is simple...in that "paid" coach's pocket (after tourney fees of course). In a large organization where the roster has 20+ guys on it, your practices might be 5 hours long with 100 kids on the field at once with 8 coaches but only one coach actually shows up for your games, a lot of your money is paying for the elite players.
The only program that will DEVELOP your player for the highest level of competition is WHAT YOU DO ON YOUR OWN combined with actually PLAYING against the top competition around. Notice I said PLAYING and not SITTING in the dugout.
We focus less on how good the team is and how well the player performs against all the same pitchers and teams the top teams are playing. Everybody wants a trophy...sure...but let's face it, we've all got plenty from over the years. Please don't depend on anybody else to promote your player. You've got to grab the lead on that whole deal.
Now a bunch of guys are about to jump on here and say "if your kid is good, the scouts will find him". I don't disagree. However, there are a LOT of players out there flying under the radar who can compete and haven't ever been noticed and they need someone to talk them up. Find just ONE guy out there who has some connections, align yourself with him, and watch what happens. Sure, it costs money to rent facility and field space, or maintain facility and field space, and I've never met anybody who will work for free. Tournaments DO cost money..although it's becoming ridiculous what you get for that money. So baseball DOES cost money and private lessons DO cost money, so plan wisely and make a decision early on what your player's objectives are. NOT YOURS.
Gettin' off my soapbox now.
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KeithB
282 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2014 : 17:49:29
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| Please explain where $2,000 is spent for a park 'travel' team with a volunteer coach? |
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rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2014 : 21:13:16
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quote:
Originally posted by KeithB
Please explain where $2,000 is spent for a park 'travel' team with a volunteer coach?
What age group? How many tournaments? What type. Roster number? Number of scrimmage games? Fuels rental cost? Insurance, uniforms, baseballs?? Any league fees?
There's other stuff but I'm exhausted... |
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KeithB
282 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2014 : 23:11:01
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quote:
Originally posted by rippit
quote:
Originally posted by KeithB
Please explain where $2,000 is spent for a park 'travel' team with a volunteer coach?
What age group? How many tournaments? What type. Roster number? Number of scrimmage games? Fuels rental cost? Insurance, uniforms, baseballs?? Any league fees?
There's other stuff but I'm exhausted...
9U |
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rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2014 : 10:19:12
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| Somebody is making 7-8k minimum off this deal. Volunteers my tushie. |
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turntwo
955 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2014 : 08:35:10
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quote:
Originally posted by KeithB
Please explain where $2,000 is spent for a park 'travel' team with a volunteer coach?
Of the $2K, you're looking at
~$500 for uniforms (helmet, bag, cleats, turfs, hats, etc).
~$200 per player 'user fee' to play out of most parks
~$6,600 for tourney fees for a 'lite' fall schedule and then 10-12 in the spring/summer
~$500 per player for indoor facility rental which would include 'professional' instruction
~$100 per player for misc., such as equipment, baseballs, score books, drinks in the team cooler, etc.
That comes out to ~$1,900 per player. I didn't include team insurance, any further registration fees, that one may run into while running a team.
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rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2014 : 09:09:37
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I'll concur with what turntwo has said IF you are paying for pro instruction at some facility AND you are talking about fall ball as well as spring/summer AND IF somebody went nuts and spent $500 on uniforms etc. Once you get to be a big boy, you are thrown 2 shirts and a hat or two. The rest is all up to you...but these are 9 year olds so WHY NOT overspend on uniforms rather than training...I say as I roll my eyes...
I had a hard time reaching $1100 just for spring/summer with no paid coaching, but I did forget about the $200 player use fee at most parks. There is also the chance there is a league fee of some sort. Throw in some money for "team" gate fees as well aka higher tourney fees disguised and blamed on said park you are using.
About those unis etc: I'm all for looking good as a team, but let's face it. Training makes you a good ball player, not some fancy uniform. Spend your money wisely. |
Edited by - rippit on 07/14/2014 09:30:37 |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2014 : 09:25:33
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quote:
Originally posted by rippit
Somebody is making 7-8k minimum off this deal. Volunteers my tushie.
If someone had dropped $8,000 on me for coaching our 12 YO team that would have come out to a grand total of about $10.25 an hour. Max.
Still, your point is on the money so to speak. If you're calling yourself a volunteer, you're a volunteer and they don't get paid.
If you're going to somehow compensate yourself, be transparent about
it. |
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turntwo
955 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2014 : 10:02:09
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quote:
Originally posted by rippit
I'll concur with what turntwo has said IF you are paying for pro instruction at some facility AND you are talking about fall ball as well as spring/summer AND IF somebody went nuts and spent $500 on uniforms etc. Once you get to be a big boy, you are thrown 2 shirts and a hat or two. The rest is all up to you...but these are 9 year olds so WHY NOT overspend on uniforms rather than training...I say as I roll my eyes...
I had a hard time reaching $1100 just for spring/summer with no paid coaching, but I did forget about the $200 player use fee at most parks. There is also the chance there is a league fee of some sort. Throw in some money for "team" gate fees as well aka higher tourney fees disguised and blamed on said park you are using.
About those unis etc: I'm all for looking good as a team, but let's face it. Training makes you a good ball player, not some fancy uniform. Spend your money wisely.
I 1000000% agree about the unis. Teams don't need matching this or that. Shirt, pair of pants, a hat and a helmet. Should be less than $200 for that. Period.
I know our team has been looking into 'indoor facilities' and most of the nicer ones (that actually have decent sized areas to run a full fledged practice in them, require you pay for some of 'instruction' time of their professionals. One place rings in at about $5,500 for 3-months use (2 days a week, 2 hrs each day, with 1 hr of each practice led by a 'professional' from that academy). Of course there are FAR cheaper indoor facilities that do not include 'pro-instructors' but then you may only have 1-2 'lanes' to use for practice. |
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KeithB
282 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2014 : 13:03:44
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| Thanks for the feedback guys. Appreciate it. I think not getting so fancy on the unis, cutting the tournaments down a little, and maybe reducing the 'professional' instruction cost. I hear the park cost is $100/kid. And why do I need team insurance? If my son gets hurt, I have insurance. Why do I need more? Guess I don't fully understand that part. Man, this can get really crazy! |
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RACGOFAR
208 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2014 : 13:38:54
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Here's some budgets from my past park teams:
2011 NGBSA 11U Bulldogs Budget
Item Budget Notes
Other Fees $100 USSA, Grand Slam Reg., etc. Fees
Team party/Awards $500
Baseballs (10 dz) $250
Field/Cage Use $550 Batting Cages, GPP fields (10 games)
Tourney Fees (15) $6,375
Park Fees (10 Games) $850 Includes umpires, concession waiver fee, insurance, etc.
Player Equip. $700 11 bags, 2 helmets
Calling Post $75
Team party/Awards $275
Uniforms $3,000
TOTAL $12,675
Sponsorships ($3,000) Goal is $3,000
PER PLAYER TOTAL $880
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2014 : 15:44:52
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RACGOFAR, where are you getting game balls for $25 per dozen. That's like $2 per ball. Never seen them that cheap!! I even just did an internet search and couldn't find them for that cheap.
And $85 per game seems pretty cheap for umpires, concession waiver, insurance and whatever else it cost you. Not saying it's not true, just seems cheap. Thought umpires would almost be that amount.
KeithB, it is usually required that the teams themselves have insurance on the kids as well. I actually believe it's more liability insurance than health insurance. Although, it may be a little of both. Most tournaments will not let you play without team insurance. And most local parks will not let you use their fields without team insurance. Looking out for the possibility of lawsuits I presume. |
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turntwo
955 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2014 : 16:16:34
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quote:
Originally posted by KeithB
Thanks for the feedback guys. Appreciate it. I think not getting so fancy on the unis, cutting the tournaments down a little, and maybe reducing the 'professional' instruction cost. I hear the park cost is $100/kid. And why do I need team insurance? If my son gets hurt, I have insurance. Why do I need more? Guess I don't fully understand that part. Man, this can get really crazy!
Keith-
The thing in, in MOST cases, $100/kid for the park, that's just a user fee. (I.e. the way the park makes a lil money to help cover upkeep, etc.) MOST teams that play out of 'xyz' park are independently ran, meaning uniforms, tourney entry fees, baseball, etc all come out of team (NOT park) funds. For the insurance, that is team liability insurance. As bballman said. RACGOFAR brought up other misc line items that a team has to pay, and that's registration fees to play in certain organizations (USSSA, Triple Crown, Grand Slam, etc).
It adds up. You're right though, you could take out 'professional' instruction and let that be at the discretion (and affordability) of each family, and cut way back on uniforms as well, and you could shave HUNDREDS off of the top. |
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KeithB
282 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2014 : 21:00:55
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quote:
Originally posted by RACGOFAR
Here's some budgets from my past park teams:
2011 NGBSA 11U Bulldogs Budget
Item Budget Notes
Other Fees $100 USSA, Grand Slam Reg., etc. Fees
Team party/Awards $500
Baseballs (10 dz) $250
Field/Cage Use $550 Batting Cages, GPP fields (10 games)
Tourney Fees (15) $6,375
Park Fees (10 Games) $850 Includes umpires, concession waiver fee, insurance, etc.
Player Equip. $700 11 bags, 2 helmets
Calling Post $75
Team party/Awards $275
Uniforms $3,000
TOTAL $12,675
Sponsorships ($3,000) Goal is $3,000
PER PLAYER TOTAL $880
I think I can handle $850. It's when people start talking $1800-$2000 that I may have to just consider going back to rec ball with private lessons. Thanks again for all the feedback. It is bringing my understanding of all this up considerably. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2014 : 23:33:29
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Let me just point out, $850 per player is including the fundraising. Not a lot of teams do the fundraising. Not a lot of families want to do fundraising. Without the fundraising, the cost is $1152 per player. I'm assuming 11 players since the coach got 11 bags. I suspect a couple of the costs listed may be a little higher, but that's a fair estimate. It's also a team with a volunteer dad coach. Bump it up if you want paid coaches. Let's say you pay 2 coaches $2,000 each to coach from February thru July. That's another $364 per player bringing the cost to $1516 per player. It adds up quick. And $2000 for 6 months of coaching is not a lot. Assuming the 15 tournaments on coach's list at say 5 games per tournament and 2 hours per game plus the 10 games mentioned at a park. Then add say 3, 2 hour practices per week for 24 weeks, that all adds up to 314 hours over 6 months of baseball. Coaches are making $6.36 per hour. If you want to pay your coaches just $10 per hour, you'd have to pay them $3114 instead of $2000. If that's the case, your coaching fees just went up to $566 per player which brings the team fee up to $1718 per player. That's just for the cost plus your coaches making $10 per hour - no profit per say.
Now, if you are an academy and have to pay loan payments on the property, insurance, physical materials for field maintenance, salaries for people to maintain the fields, someone to run the organization financially and administratively, electric bill, water bill, any upgrades that may be needed at the park, etc... These things all add up and need to be paid for. It's not that far of a stretch to pay between $3,000 & $4,000 to play. And that's without making a profit. Unless you count people making a salary to do a full time job a profit.
People complain about dad coaches all the time. For no pay, these guys must charge $1152 just to cover the costs of having a team. You want paid coaches, it's going to cost more. You want to be on a well known academy team with all the advantages that has, it's going to cost more. And we're STILL not talking about anyone making a profit. Just covering costs and paying some salaries (which a lot of people say they prefer over having a dad as a coach).
Once you get to HS, tournament fees go up to between $650 for some showcase type tournaments to $1500 for the perfect game tournaments.
It really does add up quick to run a travel team these days. I hope some of this gives you all an idea of why it has become so expensive to play travel ball. |
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Gwinnett
791 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2014 : 23:40:47
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Getting private professional instruction regularly and playing rec ball until 11u will give your child the edge he will need going forward. JMO, If he becomes a stud player/ace pitcher your costs will go down a lot to be on a top team. Continue private lessons going forward to stay a head of the learning curve and you will always cut your costs for a top team. Some top teams might even pay your way if your a stud. Another benefit is when you get private lessons you don't share instruction with the rest of the players, it's all about your kid learning what's being taught. Good luck it's a long road from 9u. Enjoy every minute of it -- it goes by VERY quick!
quote:
Originally posted by KeithB
quote:
Originally posted by RACGOFAR
Here's some budgets from my past park teams:
2011 NGBSA 11U Bulldogs Budget
Item Budget Notes
Other Fees $100 USSA, Grand Slam Reg., etc. Fees
Team party/Awards $500
Baseballs (10 dz) $250
Field/Cage Use $550 Batting Cages, GPP fields (10 games)
Tourney Fees (15) $6,375
Park Fees (10 Games) $850 Includes umpires, concession waiver fee, insurance, etc.
Player Equip. $700 11 bags, 2 helmets
Calling Post $75
Team party/Awards $275
Uniforms $3,000
TOTAL $12,675
Sponsorships ($3,000) Goal is $3,000
PER PLAYER TOTAL $880
I think I can handle $850. It's when people start talking $1800-$2000 that I may have to just consider going back to rec ball with private lessons. Thanks again for all the feedback. It is bringing my understanding of all this up considerably.
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Gwinnett
791 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2014 : 00:16:03
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| Almost forgot work with your kid at least 3-4 days a week on the stuff your instructor is teaching your kid or your wasting a lot of money re-learning it each week. |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2014 : 08:35:05
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I went back and looked and it was $2070 for our 14YO team. That included three paid coaches who turned out to be a total disaster. In fairness, I guess, none of them had ever coached before. Not only did they not know how to teach kids how to play (they were each stars on their HS team and two of them had played some college), they didn't know how to run a practice or manage a game.
It was my mistake, but it was a sincere attempt to get all dads (including myself) out of the dugout. I still get notes and comments about how much fun kids had on our 11,12 and 13 YO teams. Don't think I'll ever get that about the 14YO team. Although we did lose a couple of cancers off the team, kept the best coach, took 10 kids to a Triple Crown tournament in Omaha. Everybody played every inning. We went 2-1-1 in a rain shortened tournament and had a blast at the CWS, so all was well that ended well.
I will see if I can find our 12 YO (Cooperstown) budget. But I think it was close to that amount. 11 & 13 were probably more in the $1500-$1800 range. Both ended with tournaments in Panama City. |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2014 : 09:39:20
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quote:
Originally posted by AllStar
I went back and looked and it was $2070 for our 14YO team. That included three paid coaches who turned out to be a total disaster. In fairness, I guess, none of them had ever coached before. Not only did they not know how to teach kids how to play (they were each stars on their HS team and two of them had played some college), they didn't know how to run a practice or manage a game.
It was my mistake, but it was a sincere attempt to get all dads (including myself) out of the dugout. I still get notes and comments about how much fun kids had on our 11,12 and 13 YO teams. Don't think I'll ever get that about the 14YO team. Although we did lose a couple of cancers off the team, kept the best coach, took 10 kids to a Triple Crown tournament in Omaha. Everybody played every inning. We went 2-1-1 in a rain shortened tournament and had a blast at the CWS, so all was well that ended well.
I will see if I can find our 12 YO (Cooperstown) budget. But I think it was close to that amount. 11 & 13 were probably more in the $1500-$1800 range. Both ended with tournaments in Panama City.
Also, a couple of people offset some of their costs with sponsorships and we ran a tournament that accounted for approximately $200. Even though I and a couple of moms did 90% of the work. :) |
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Mad1
252 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2014 : 10:14:22
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Buckner, There are alternatives out there to the big academy's, especially if just getting in tournament ball. Look at some of the Rec Parks for their tournament teams to see if that's what you want. If you look around there are some very good programs or teams that fit your wallet and are still very good at teaching.
Our team this year cost the parents $300.00 to play the full spring and summer season. We play at the AAA level for most part and are a independent team based out of Rec League. We have very good dad coaches that do their part to make it cheaper to play. The 300.00 was for uniforms, bat bags and helmet. One coach owns uniform company , so it was done at cost. One father is ex Major League pitcher who handled pitching staff. One was a high school catching coach that handled the catchers. The Rec league donates the field time to the team because of their involvement with the league. The team is corporate sponsored for all association fees, cage time and tournament fees that amounted to 15 tournaments this year at 12u to include a World Series. All our kids come from the same area and go to school together except 2, and choose to play together because they are friends and it works . If you look you can find what your looking for at a price you can afford. There are very good non paid coaches out there that do if for the kids and do it well, at all skill levels.
Keep looking, you will find the fit that works.
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Cost
