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3boydad
20 Posts |
 Posted - 06/11/2013 : 15:15:01
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| How can we eliminate the bad umpires from the system, the bottom 10-20%? They exist at every park and don't seem to go away. You can't say anything to them at games else they throw you out of the park. Who do you talk to if you see consistently poor calls from behind the plate...6 inches outside is not a strike and I don't care if he's being consistent or not to both teams, he needs to be sent a message. We are all paying $500+gate fees plus months and months of training etc. and these umps walk around the parks like they own it. We deserve better. Thoughts? |
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christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2013 : 15:45:54
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| Depending on the age we got paid $40/ game.... Offer him $45 to not call your game.... All joking aside, the only effective way is to have your HC speak with the Tourney Director and ask him to just observe the crew or ask them to see if the umpire co-ordinator would stop by to observe...that is not guaranteed to make a difference though. |
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Mad1
252 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2013 : 15:52:21
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| Agree there are some bad ones and some real good ones too, though. Too many organizations and tournaments pulling from the pool I would guess, throws in unseasoned umpires. We have them telling us alot that they are gonna open the zone up against our kids, Why? We are not playing rec ball. They will also narrow the zone drastically on teams that take big lead, the zone is the zone. We actually had one last week tell us we couldnt talk to our catcher during the game, lol. Gotta love it, all we did was ask the catcher where our pitcher was missing. Yep, that didn't fly, we just try to control the things we can. |
Edited by - Mad1 on 06/11/2013 16:09:12 |
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bmwac
29 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2013 : 16:23:04
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| At the TC state, our catcher didnt throw down on the pitch the ump told him to, so the umpire proceeded to tell him "just because of that I'm not calling strikes for your team". And yes, we immediately got the director on site to observe, which really made no difference, he missed stikes and calls regardless of who was watching. He was one of the worst umpires we've seen this year. |
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3boydad
20 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2013 : 11:09:17
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| Christheump, do umps all have a unique ID or certification # of some sort? What would your thoughts be on a rating system that would allow coaches and spectators to rate umps on a number of categories to create a ranking of sorts so tournament directors could use only 4/5 star umps if they choose to and pay them a little extra(improving their tournaments perception). Would umps like that, being rated and potentially getting more per game? Would it help rid the system of lifers as league directors and tourny directors tell ump coordinators to get rid of the bottom 15% with poor ratings? |
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mikepayne
173 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2013 : 11:18:38
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| I am sure the ump was kidding, what blue does not want to call strikes. And six inches outside at 10u is a strike. Our high school manual calls for us to go one baseball outside the plate and that is top level high school games. Six inches is basically two baseballs off the plate. One good thing about Triple Crown events is the TD's are both part time umps and can spot a bad ump and they have all the umpire booking agents on speed dial. |
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ChinMusic
126 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2013 : 11:56:32
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3boydad...
As an ump, I would welcome positive/negative feedback - it's nice to get kudos and we can all improve in some area. The problem with allowing just anyone to submit feedback is that there's a large number of spectators (and coaches) that just don't know the rules.
Strike zone is always tough to judge/rate - I just work hard to be as consistent as I can. A lot of pitches look good from the bucket or the stands, but you can't see where the catcher is setup.
The bottom line is that we can't make everyone happy - that's not our job. We need to be consistent, hustle to our spots and call 'em like we see 'em. It's a tough job, but I love it!!
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2013 : 12:21:17
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quote:
Originally posted by ChinMusic
A lot of pitches look good from the bucket or the stands, but you can't see where the catcher is setup.
So true. I called pitches for a long time on my son's travel team. From when he was 11 until 14. Many times, he would throw a pitch, hit the catcher in the glove without the catcher moving an inch and it would be called a ball. The head coach, sitting next to me would get upset about the call and I would just tell him "It was a ball, I called the pitch off the plate." So, I knew the catcher was set up out of the strike zone. Hard to tell without knowing that sometimes.
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bmwac
29 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2013 : 19:45:41
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| @mikepayne, perhaps, I personally didn't hear it. This was just what our catcher had told us dad. This wasn't the first issue we'd had with this particular ump during this game. The other ump that was part of this team was phenomenal, you could tell he truly was trying to do his best. |
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christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2013 : 10:35:31
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quote:
Originally posted by 3boydad
Christheump, do umps all have a unique ID or certification # of some sort? What would your thoughts be on a rating system that would allow coaches and spectators to rate umps on a number of categories to create a ranking of sorts so tournament directors could use only 4/5 star umps if they choose to and pay them a little extra(improving their tournaments perception). Would umps like that, being rated and potentially getting more per game? Would it help rid the system of lifers as league directors and tourny directors tell ump coordinators to get rid of the bottom 15% with poor ratings?
The only certification that I know of is at the High School level and beyond. You can be a part of an organization that will test you and give you a patch, but those are few and far between. As far as a rating system, mehhh....nothing good will come of that because it will be 100% judgmental and will usually be heavily influenced by emotions after bad calls. You certainly would not want it open to spectators, talk about emotional irrational ratings.
Every ump wants to call strikes...as others have said at 10U and it being that close, you have to tell the batter to watch that outside pitch. Let's be honest, if we called every 10U game according to MLB rules, there would be anarchy and long games, because at that point there would be walks and balks left and right...
As far as the umpire telling the catcher he was not going to call strikes, I can without a doubt say that was nothing more than trying to have fun with the catcher. I knew some of the catchers by name and they knew me by name. You are back there with them for hours and hours so you have to make it a little interesting(when called for). I know the books say not to talk to any player and keep it professional, but my thoughts are these are kids and they like to have fun...so why not try to make it fun behind the plate. You could usually tell which ones were talkers and which ones werent..just played it by ear. |
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3boydad
20 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2013 : 11:00:20
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| There are umps that are hot/cold, too old, too slow, just don't care, or wanting to get home to fast....there needs to be a check and balance on these guys...and to date there is nothing. An open rating system would at least let them know there could be some consequences to not being good(less money or not asked as often to umpire certain leagues or tournaments). I know what you're saying about mostly negative ratings being the norm but the baseline would be established and ratings would be relative to the baseline. Spectators, coaches, TD's all want good umps to make the games better and would be more than willing to rate the good umps high to make a point, just as much as they will rate bad umps poorly. All umps getting paid the same regardless of ability is not the American way. |
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T13
257 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2013 : 13:25:58
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christheump....you one of the best!!!....great times with you when coaching the Diamond Bears!
As for the rest of you complaining, they are human and just as bad as most coaches...quit complaining, its youth baseball and should be fun and nobody is perfect (except all the coaches on here and parents!) If you don't like it teach your kid to play golf and its just your child and a little white ball and no one to point blame at!!! |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2013 : 13:33:26
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quote:
Originally posted by 3boydad
There are umps that are hot/cold, too old, too slow, just don't care, or wanting to get home to fast....there needs to be a check and balance on these guys...and to date there is nothing. An open rating system would at least let them know there could be some consequences to not being good(less money or not asked as often to umpire certain leagues or tournaments). I know what you're saying about mostly negative ratings being the norm but the baseline would be established and ratings would be relative to the baseline. Spectators, coaches, TD's all want good umps to make the games better and would be more than willing to rate the good umps high to make a point, just as much as they will rate bad umps poorly. All umps getting paid the same regardless of ability is not the American way.
They are a couple of organizations that provide the umpires. I think NUA is the primary one. The guy that runs that organization was always responsive to respectful, fact-based emails when I was coaching.
Ratings wouldn't be unbiased. |
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christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2013 : 14:11:27
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| I would not allow spectators to be a part of any grading system. No way, No how, Never, ever, ever.....Can't tell you how many times a parent in the stands have yelled that the ball was foul because the batted ball struck home before bounding into fair territory.....and you want that to be part of the ranking system....Like I said, No Way, No How, Never, Ever, Ever..... Can you get a bad one, sure. Umps want to be good umps...Trust me, the majority arent out there doing it for the money. There is a silent checks and balance system. A good umpire coordinator will know who is strong and who is weak and will never pair two weak together....Word gets around and we all talk among ourselves. The usual give away is "I hate working with him". |
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christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2013 : 14:25:46
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quote:
Originally posted by T13
christheump....you one of the best!!!....great times with you when coaching the Diamond Bears!
As for the rest of you complaining, they are human and just as bad as most coaches...quit complaining, its youth baseball and should be fun and nobody is perfect (except all the coaches on here and parents!) If you don't like it teach your kid to play golf and its just your child and a little white ball and no one to point blame at!!!
Mr. Takac.... Yall were a joy to work with. Coaches like you and Chris and your kids are what made it tough for me to stop.... Clean, Hard, Fun, Respectable disagreements. |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2013 : 14:26:33
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quote:
Originally posted by christheump
I would not allow spectators to be a part of any grading system. No way, No how, Never, ever, ever.....Can't tell you how many times a parent in the stands have yelled that the ball was foul because the batted ball struck home before bounding into fair territory.....and you want that to be part of the ranking system....Like I said, No Way, No How, Never, Ever, Ever..... Can you get a bad one, sure. Umps want to be good umps...Trust me, the majority arent out there doing it for the money. There is a silent checks and balance system. A good umpire coordinator will know who is strong and who is weak and will never pair two weak together....Word gets around and we all talk among ourselves. The usual give away is "I hate working with him".
1000% agree. |
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HITANDRUN
436 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2013 : 15:31:20
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| Question for umps. You are behind the plate and there is a man on 3B, batter hits a ball to 3B and the 3Bman throws to first pulling the 1st baseman off the bag so he has to swipe the tag at 1B. Umpire in the field "calls" the runner safe and says the 1st baseman missed the tag. Do you over rule the umpire at 1B or let the play stand even if you thought he made the tag? Coach comes out to argue the call? Do you overrule the other umpire? |
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nwgadad
137 Posts |
Posted - 06/13/2013 : 18:08:10
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This happened in one of our games this weekend! The HP ump did overrule the call!
quote:
Originally posted by HITANDRUN
Question for umps. You are behind the plate and there is a man on 3B, batter hits a ball to 3B and the 3Bman throws to first pulling the 1st baseman off the bag so he has to swipe the tag at 1B. Umpire in the field "calls" the runner safe and says the 1st baseman missed the tag. Do you over rule the umpire at 1B or let the play stand even if you thought he made the tag? Coach comes out to argue the call? Do you overrule the other umpire?
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christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2013 : 08:28:21
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| hahaha...Trick Question. |
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ChinMusic
126 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2013 : 09:30:35
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quote:
Originally posted by HITANDRUN
Question for umps. You are behind the plate and there is a man on 3B, batter hits a ball to 3B and the 3Bman throws to first pulling the 1st baseman off the bag so he has to swipe the tag at 1B. Umpire in the field "calls" the runner safe and says the 1st baseman missed the tag. Do you over rule the umpire at 1B or let the play stand even if you thought he made the tag? Coach comes out to argue the call? Do you overrule the other umpire?
Here's what should occur:
1. Coach should call time and approach the base umpire who made the call. As the plate guy, I've already signaled my partner that I have some information.
2. Base umpire will confer with plate umpire
3. Base umpire will change his call if all in agreement
Key word being should. Some coaches explode and just race on to the field screaming. With a 2-man crew, it's tough for the base guy to always catch the swipe tag or pulled foot.
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nwgadad
137 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2013 : 09:51:31
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Why was the plate ump not checking to make sure the runner touched home? Could the coaches appeal that he missed home? Then the home plate ump say well I didn't really check to make sure I was watching the play at first? As usual a no win situation for the umps! This exact play did happen in our game and it was my son running to first. My son told me that 1B tagged him. The 1B ump should have just asked him lol...
quote:
Originally posted by ChinMusic
quote:
Originally posted by HITANDRUN
Question for umps. You are behind the plate and there is a man on 3B, batter hits a ball to 3B and the 3Bman throws to first pulling the 1st baseman off the bag so he has to swipe the tag at 1B. Umpire in the field "calls" the runner safe and says the 1st baseman missed the tag. Do you over rule the umpire at 1B or let the play stand even if you thought he made the tag? Coach comes out to argue the call? Do you overrule the other umpire?
Here's what should occur:
1. Coach should call time and approach the base umpire who made the call. As the plate guy, I've already signaled my partner that I have some information.
2. Base umpire will confer with plate umpire
3. Base umpire will change his call if all in agreement
Key word being should. Some coaches explode and just race on to the field screaming. With a 2-man crew, it's tough for the base guy to always catch the swipe tag or pulled foot.
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ChinMusic
126 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2013 : 10:14:24
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Nwgadad... You can catch the home plate touch with a quick glance, and still (hopefully) watch the play @ 1B. Again, a 2-man crew makes these situations difficult.
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christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2013 : 10:40:21
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quote:
Originally posted by nwgadad
Why was the plate ump not checking to make sure the runner touched home? Could the coaches appeal that he missed home? Then the home plate ump say well I didn't really check to make sure I was watching the play at first? As usual a no win situation for the umps! This exact play did happen in our game and it was my son running to first. My son told me that 1B tagged him. The 1B ump should have just asked him lol...
quote:
Originally posted by ChinMusic
quote:
Originally posted by HITANDRUN
Question for umps. You are behind the plate and there is a man on 3B, batter hits a ball to 3B and the 3Bman throws to first pulling the 1st baseman off the bag so he has to swipe the tag at 1B. Umpire in the field "calls" the runner safe and says the 1st baseman missed the tag. Do you over rule the umpire at 1B or let the play stand even if you thought he made the tag? Coach comes out to argue the call? Do you overrule the other umpire?
Here's what should occur:
1. Coach should call time and approach the base umpire who made the call. As the plate guy, I've already signaled my partner that I have some information.
2. Base umpire will confer with plate umpire
3. Base umpire will change his call if all in agreement
Key word being should. Some coaches explode and just race on to the field screaming. With a 2-man crew, it's tough for the base guy to always catch the swipe tag or pulled foot.
Bingo.... |
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Canton Chargers
885 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2013 : 17:15:17
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BMWAC, I think we had same ump at TC State. It was ALL about him and he knew absolutely everything. I think he even told me he ump'd in the bigs for 30 years and he was about 40 years old. He was beyond brutal on ball/ strikes and field calls. Umpires should try to be invisible in my opinion and call them how they see them. Yes, some of them need vision correction and yes, there are some that absolutely do NOT know the rules, but I've been coaching for awhile now and know that most of them are in it for a lil scratch and love the game like us coaches do. I always go out of my way to thank the good ones and respectfully sign my card and walk away from the bad ones (win or lose). I also find myself yelling at the tv when the red sox are getting screwed by umps and love it when the umpires screw up against the yankees, so good/ bad umps are here to stay. Stinks for the kids when you have an ump making it about him and is just brutal behind plate or in the field, but I always tell them that a lot of failure at this game and bad umpiring is part of the game. Get used to it or you will find yourself quitting and picking up another hobby.
As a tourney director, I always advise my lead ump guy when I witness bad umpiring or hear it from winning and losing coaches. Bad umps get weeded out whether by policing their own as one poster mentioned or weeded out by directors. Directors are either in it to make money or fundraising for their team/ organizations, so the less headaches for them with everything else going on, the better.
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Edited by - Canton Chargers on 06/17/2013 17:53:38 |
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christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 06/18/2013 : 11:07:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Canton Chargers
As a tourney director, I always advise my lead ump guy when I witness bad umpiring or hear it from winning and losing coaches. Bad umps get weeded out whether by policing their own as one poster mentioned or weeded out by directors.
This..I promise it matters and does not go un-noticed...Personally, one the greatest compliments that I ever got was when a TD came to me in the middle of a game and said, I want you on field such and such right now...The bad thing is, the game I was BU for got the bad ump... |
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3boydad
20 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2013 : 14:03:57
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Appreciate the conversation but getting back to the topic...How do we as travel ballers in Atlanta get rid of the bad umps? I don't want my teams going to the plate with a 'i better swing at everything mentality' for this game but not the next one. Bad umps exist, face it they exist in the system and I don't see them going away unless there is a system/process. Anyone at the triple crown in Cumming this weekend, the ump crew at Midway for 10's was terrible, how can we improve the ump crews?
Think about "Yelp" for umps. There are plenty of restaurant owners who think their reviews are biased but Yelp has survived and thrived. Same for Tripadvisor. Why not create a fan based rating system, umps will be rated relative to the baseline stats, you're either way above or way below the baseline and tourny directors/rec parks can use the ratings to get rid of the bad ones. Anyone like the idea? |
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How do we get rid or bad umpires?
