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rippit
667 Posts |
 Posted - 07/18/2012 : 21:34:55
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I'm not talking about fees some dad threw together to form his own team. I'm talking about the fee a baseball facility charges per player to administer, manage, train, coach and clothe a team. Do I have the right to ask how much each coach is being paid, what the hourly rates per instructor is etc?
A business charges what a business charges. if you think the business charges too much then go elsewhere. Or do it yourself. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2012 : 23:22:43
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I don't know, do you ask the restaurant what they paid for the food, what their rent is and how much they pay their wait staff? Do you ask an electrician how much he pays for his wire, the van lease, gas, and what his net profit is when he's done with a job for you?
Sure you can ask, but at the end of the day, you need to simply determine if you feel you're getting value for whatever you spend. If you feel that you're getting value in return for your dollar that equals or exceeds what you're paying, then it's a win. If you feel that you haven't, then find another place to play. There's a reason McDonald's is cheaper than Five Guys. You don't know the profit margin for either, but for a burger, fries and drink you're going to pay about $6 at one and $12 at the other. If you are satisfied with the value after you're done eating, what do you care? |
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bbmom2
119 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2012 : 23:49:37
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| I think it also depends on the type of team. Some of the facility teams (not talking about ECB here because each team is a "franchise" for lack of a better term) use this as a profit center - which is okay as you will know that up front. For the teams we've played on, since it's self funded by players, we are told we will see a year end break down and most years have gotten a refund. We also see a budget breakdown at the beginning of the year to show where our money will go. I think the question to ask is "will we see a budget?" If the park is subsidizing the team in any way, where by facility, coaching, etc. I wouldn't expect to see a breakdown nor would I ask for it. In our team's budget we saw what they would be paying the coach for hire, what the cost of the coaches jerseys, how much was allocated for the batting cages, etc. Since costs vary so much from team to team, park to park then families just have to make the decision of what is reasonable for their family. I wouldn't have a problem if a facility made money off the team fees if I knew that up front. If it was worth it and a good fit, hey, doesn't matter to me. Or as you said Rippit, if it's too much, go elsewhere. You will find the team that fits your budget. |
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2playersmom
59 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2012 : 09:17:01
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All , my concern with a ' no budget disclosed ' team would certainly be if a tournament or tournaments or rained out or canceled .
Then , arent we as paying familys entitled to a refund for that expense which was figured in to the players fee ? Or for any other expense that was projected but not spent ?
Without a budget you cant identify and enforce that refund .
Also without a disclosed year end budget you cant learn who isn't paying to be on the team like (most) everyone else is !
Stay Away from teams that dont breakdown the players fee in a budget !
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peashooter
297 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2012 : 09:32:19
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| If you are looking for refunds, you should not be playing travel baseball. You should be playing REC and then all-stars. Travel baseball is a business, and with how much parents screw over coaches by jumping teams, I can easily see why refunds are not given. Parents have no idea how much disruption leaving a team causes everyone else and the coaching staff on the team. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2012 : 09:50:01
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quote:
Originally posted by 2playersmom
All , my concern with a ' no budget disclosed ' team would certainly be if a tournament or tournaments or rained out or canceled .
Then , arent we as paying familys entitled to a refund for that expense which was figured in to the players fee ? Or for any other expense that was projected but not spent ?
Without a budget you cant identify and enforce that refund .
Also without a disclosed year end budget you cant learn who isn't paying to be on the team like (most) everyone else is !
Stay Away from teams that dont breakdown the players fee in a budget !
2players,
You seem to be speaking toward more of the "individual" not-for-profit travel scenario where a few dads will pull together a team, find field space (or play out of a Rec Authority), and the costs should equal expenses.
The OP specifically asked about a "baseball facility" which points more toward the ECB, Team Elite, GPA, 643, etc., where they are operating a business and expect to run at a profit or at least sustain all the employees/facilities at the end of each season.
In those specific scenarios, I don't think that there necessarily is a refund to be expected. Maybe, but if all the costs are explained up front, and you agree to pay those costs, then what happens to the finances should be irrelevant IF what has been promised to be delivered (x number of tournaments, paid coaching, uniforms, facilities, etc). |
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Hurricane
351 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2012 : 11:01:21
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Bottom line is "most" good coaches end up losing money out of their own pockets when it's all said and done anyway. I have spent money out of my pocket on wiffle balls, practice balls, pine tar, wood bats, hitting tees, jump ropes etc.
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Dr. Old School
314 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2012 : 12:17:48
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One point about refunds, once you get past the very beginning of the season, where uniforms are ordered and in, field rental is scheduled for practice, tournaments are scheduled, and the only thing left is to play the tournaments, there is no money to refund. The tournaments are not paid for per player. They are per team. The cost to the team is the same whether you stay or not. It is the same whether a family has a vacation scheduled during one of the weeks and a player cannot play. They can't say "Hey, I did not play in that tournament, can I get refunded for it?"
Yes, you can get refunded the total amount the tournament is refunding the team by you not being there. $0.00.
Now, if your team arrangement has built in it "player specific" costs like lessons that are pre-paid, it would make sense that you might want to be refunded for the ones not used. Also, if you are turning back in a uniform that you would have otherwise been able to keep, it would make sense to be compensated for it.
I just think people have to keep in mind that budgets are built based on the "Team" playing the season, not any one particular player. |
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ramman999
241 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2012 : 13:17:02
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It depends on the team/organization -
In the case of a non-profit, I would absolutely ask, and it would be a huge red flag to me if they did not share the budget info with me. I've been a part of several non-profit teams and we provided full disclosure, including pass along professional instruction costs, etc. Why? Because I didn't want to have someone come along questioning our integrity down the road - Besides, it was a great insight into the "baseball value" we provided.
In the case of facilities with hired and paid professionals, its a little different - they are operating as a business. If they chose to share it great, but if no it's no big deal to me. |
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peashooter
297 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2012 : 14:49:43
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| RobDA, have to disagree with you 100% Ask any coach out there and most parents. Kids jump mainly because of playing time, or a better deal. They always think the grass is greener on the other side. The reason Timmy isn't playing can't be because he isn't performing, or listening to the coach. IT MUST BE because the coach sucks! |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2012 : 14:30:35
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You know, I have been involved in travel ball for around 8 years. I don't think I have ever seen a coach take a kid on a team just because they want the money. Every coach I am aware of takes every kid on the team because they think they can contribute in some way. No one is going to take a kid, knowing he is not going to play, just to get their money. I think that's pretty far fetched. Maybe the coach took him, knowing he wasn't going to be a starter, but thought he could contribute in a back up role. Maybe he took him thinking he may start, but it didn't work out. I would say the vast majority of the time, coaches take kids thinking they will contribute. Through the course of the season, that kid does not produce or perform in the way the coach thought he would, and his play time goes down. I have seen that a bunch.
It has happened to my kid. The last team he played on, he was the starting SS. Didn't hit very well and wound up not playing in the field too much. We talked about it and he understood it. If you want to play, you have to hit. He produced on the mound and that's what his role became. Was he disappointed he didn't get to play in the field more? Absolutely. Did he (and us) understand what the deal was? Absolutely. My wife was disappointed a bunch over the summer about him not playing in the field more. I spent a lot of time telling her "If he wants to play in the field, he needs to hit better. And he's not hitting". She wound up getting it.
Anyway, the point is, play time will wind up being a by-product of how well you play. Plain and simple. No coach takes a kid to sit on the bench all seanson, only to get money from him. Just doesn't happen. |
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4bagger
131 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2012 : 19:43:08
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| NEVER heard of a coach taking a kid for the money in 20 years of doing this......... |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2012 : 08:31:35
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quote:
Originally posted by RobDa
I agree with 2playersma , if you ask families for an amount of money based on projected expenses then if those expenses arent met you give back the money , what exactly is the problem with that ?
That's what I did. I got the exact same refund as everyone else. I had 2 players quit in 5 years. I think there were 2 or 3 tournaments left in the season. They got the same refund as everyone else, even though they tried to agitate for more. I didn't disclose to Famiy A what Family B had or hadn't paid. Given the environment of the last couple of years, some families needed a little longer to pay than others, but everyone eventually paid the same amount.
quote:
Originally posted by Hurricane
Bottom line is "most" good coaches end up losing money out of their own pockets when it's all said and done anyway. I have spent money out of my pocket on wiffle balls, practice balls, pine tar, wood bats, hitting tees, jump ropes etc.
About half and half for me. I was usually pretty close so the refunds or my losses were pretty small. |
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Canton Chargers
885 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2012 : 09:32:00
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Here's my budget for parents next season:
$0.00 except for gas, their concession appetites and the players family members if we choose to play out of town and need an overnight stay somewhere. For Cooperstown, the players will be paid for in full, but parents or other family members will have to pay for their hotels or whatever.
With this budget, do you think I will still have parents thinking they got ripped off in any way? You betcha!!! LOL (I hope not, but these days ya neva know)
I have said it a million times: the best way to police your budgets and teams is to actually coach for yourself. Only then will you see what most of us deal with. There are a ton of coaches that pay for a lot of stuff they wouldn't pay for if they were just a parent. I know some parents will never get that and is why they should coach themselves to live it and will then know how hard it is to coach at these levels or any levels for that matter and how much it costs to run a team... |
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4bagger
131 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2012 : 09:33:12
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We will have to agree to disagree.
I don't know how many years you've been involved in youth sports but I've coached with the best coaches and the worst coaches, rec league to elite travel, baseball, soccer, lacrosse, fastpitch softball and I have never, even once, had or heard of this happening until your post.
If you have witnessed it firsthand then that coach and team should have been reported immediately to the governing board of whatever organization they play for and I hope the aggrieved family would receive a full refund and the offending coach(es) made to pay out of their own pockets. No excuse for blatantly ripping off a player and family like that. |
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Canton Chargers
885 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2012 : 09:37:44
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I have seen a few teams take players for the money only and had no intentions on the player actually contributing to the team game-wise. That, I will agree with, but for the most part, I think coaches do the right things for the team as a whole both financially and competitively. Listen, there are bad apples out there as in with everything, but as a whole, I love the sports community around here and think that most parents and coaches try their best to do the right things. Some things are just not fair in life and that is just part of life as well.
Good luck to all of you next season and hope to see all your kids succeed.
Chargers!!! |
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jongamefan
218 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2012 : 11:13:33
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YES teams DO take kids to round out the budget thats nothing new !
usually there are paid coaches maybe some added big expenses and then a hanful of influential parents who are not going to pay over a certain amount of money for their son to be on the team.
hence the adding of more players and there player fees as team revenue to subsidize the others
why all the denial about this ? |
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bkball
173 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2012 : 13:07:08
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bballman,
If I am coaching and your son is a mop at SS I don't care if he can hit .200. He would play for me all the time. How old is he in the 2013 by the way? I am serious |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2012 : 14:55:05
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| My son is 19, pitching college ball this fall. This happened at 17 for him last summer. He could mop, but, playing on a very good team, there were other guys that were almost as good as him in the field AND were hitting. When you get to the older ages, close to college, you start to specialize. Very few college players play 2 ways. The other SSs were not pitchers. |
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Player fees breakdown
