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3BCoach
6 Posts |
 Posted - 04/16/2012 : 10:07:17
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This came up on another board. It may have been discussed to death here as well so forgive me, but it's something that has been bugging me since the beginning of time.
I see time limits as both a curse AND a blessing. Unfortunately today, I find it mostly a curse.
Time limits during pool play - okay. I get it. Time limits for bracket play? Not so much. Time limits on championship games? NO WAY.
Why? Coaches and their stall tactics. Everybody knows you are stalling, including the umpires. So you win a championship game. How? By stalling??
Good for you??? Really dumb.
Different stage: league games with time limits. If you're gonna put a time limit rule in there, how about adding a no stall by the coaches rule? Or how about playing the full allotment of innings to begin with? There's already a mercy rule in there.
I saw a coach get a rather decent lead in a game with another inning left to play, but proceeded to walk back and forth from home plate to talk to his batter after every pitch. It was absurd. It reminds me of those last 30 seconds in a basketball game when the losing team fouls every chance they get in the hopes of getting the ball back and the game goes on for another 15 minutes as a result. Just play ball. You're either winning or you're losing, but try not to look like a complete tool in the process.
It's about the players, not about you.
So what's your best story on time limits and their abuse? |
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Mad1
252 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 10:39:36
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| There is a rule is USSSA rules about just such a thing , the rule is 7.03.T. It limits the offensive coach to once an inning to talk to batter. It is rarely enforced unless the other coach brings it up or protests it. Umpires are supposed to ignore any request for A subsequent conference and continue play, we had it happen to us this w/e and the umpire didnt enforce it either. |
Edited by - Mad1 on 04/16/2012 10:43:32 |
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Butch21
14 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 11:08:12
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We have seen everything from the fake injury to the multiple shoe tie.....very frustrating. My players ask me why we don't stall like some of the other teams....we just use it as a teaching tool. The reason we don't stall is the same reason we don't steal bases when we are up 9 runs just to get up 10 to hit the mercy rule.
I am sure we will now hear from a few of the coaches about saving pitchers and using strategy based on the rules being used.... |
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T13
257 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 11:48:05
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| Hate time limits....but it is part of the rules, so get a big lead and you don't have to worry about it :) |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 12:14:44
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"It (baseball) has no clock, no ties and no Liberal intrusions into the organized progression."-George Will
Always hated them, don't miss them.
12 yo tournament. We were playing in the semis of a u-trip tournament. We're down 2, 1 out, man on first, bottom 6. About 3 or 4 minutes left and the other coach changes CATCHERS. Our fans are freaking out. We'd seen this guy's act for years so we're just shaking our heads because as bush as it was, there was nothing we could do about it.
We proceed to load the bases and my son hits a shot into the gap that clears the bases and puts us up one. All of a sudden coach is in a big, fat hurry. His pitcher throws a couple of pitches to the next batter and blue calls "Ball Game". It was awesome.
I still hate them. |
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HardBaller
101 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 12:15:36
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Coach,
I'm not a coach but a parent. And yes, it's right that you should hear from coaches, parents, and fans alike.
Nobody will be mad at you for playing by the rules and teaching the boys to do the same. And not to even to play "loose" by the rules is a good lesson for them.
But if you're not using the rules of the game so that your team is not disadvantaged, you're abdicating your responsibilites as a coach to be quite frank.
We want to be able to say, "Coach really coached that game, he really plays by the rules WELL".
It's a good practice to "save" pitching. If nothing else, save the wear and tear on the boys arms. Moreover, the other team "needs" to work on holding runners and throwing down; let them get their work in as well.
I'm not sure what exactly is going on here, but I think you need to re-evalute your stance on this issue. There is a reason you're in the vast minority on this one!
quote:
Originally posted by Butch21
We have seen everything from the fake injury to the multiple shoe tie.....very frustrating. My players ask me why we don't stall like some of the other teams....we just use it as a teaching tool. The reason we don't stall is the same reason we don't steal bases when we are up 9 runs just to get up 10 to hit the mercy rule.
I am sure we will now hear from a few of the coaches about saving pitchers and using strategy based on the rules being used....
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3BCoach
6 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 12:22:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Butch21
We have seen everything from the fake injury to the multiple shoe tie.....very frustrating. My players ask me why we don't stall like some of the other teams....we just use it as a teaching tool. The reason we don't stall is the same reason we don't steal bases when we are up 9 runs just to get up 10 to hit the mercy rule.
I am sure we will now hear from a few of the coaches about saving pitchers and using strategy based on the rules being used....
Funny you mention the third base thing. This happens a lot too. I've seen coaches get upset at a runner advancing to third on a pass ball/wild pitch with the score way out of control. I've seen it a LOT. The coaches didn't tell those runners to advance. They do it out of habit. Doesn't every coach teach it? Hard to tell a 9, 10, 11 etc. NOT to run. We all need to let the kids just play.
In these games it's usually so lopsided that it's actually hard to run rule before time gets called anyway... |
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field6
72 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 12:29:38
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| Had it work for me and against me. Part of the game. Keep telling yourself you won't do it. I will always do it if it calls for it. Just being honest! Why in the world wouldn't you as a coach not want the 10th run? It has nothing to do with saving pitchers for me. It's about the win. Where and when did it become a bad thing to be a winner? At a travel ball level you have to change your thinking. I don't like time limits, but I coach within the rules from what we are given. Your in the championship game, you have 3 minutes left in the game. Your ahead by one run......well because I am a morale human that does no wrong, I am not calling time out to talk to my pitcher...I will just get this strike out and play another inning. Don't by it. If you do then shame on you. Coaches do your thing....nothing wrong with using strategy with the time under the clear discretion that it is within the rules. |
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zbake
399 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 12:33:30
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| Win or lose the game on the field. Do NOT win it because you "managed" the clock better. And I bet, if you ask the kids if they would rather play another inning or would they rather sit there and stall to let time run out, the kids would probably say lets play. |
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bkball
173 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 13:06:48
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| I think tournaments should drop one inning, if you are scheduled to play 7 drop it to 6 mandatory, suppose to play 6 drop it to 5. Keep the mercy rules and it should all balance out. |
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ChinMusic
126 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 13:35:53
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| Hate time limits too, but required to keep games close to schedule. |
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Topscout
59 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 13:39:33
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| Last summer we played in a high school tournament with a hard stop time limit in pool play with reversion. We go into the top of the 6th up 4-3 get 2 quick outs then the other team gets hot and takes a 5-4 lead. All of a sudden, we can't get anybody out and the lead builds to 11-4. About this time the umpire tells the other coach that there are 2 minutes left till the hard stop and the score will revert to 4-3 unless we finish both the top and bottom of the inning. Final score 4-3 us. The handshake was awkward - team up 11-4 was dejected because they officially lost, and our guys didn't know how to react. |
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Topscout
59 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 13:46:36
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By the way - the key to time limit baseball is to never give up the lead. If you never fall behind, you will not be impacted by the time limit.
In actuality, it is a good lesson for pitchers as well - pitch with the goal of never giving up the lead, because once you fall behind you need to depend on your hitting to bail you out. |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 14:03:37
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quote:
Originally posted by ChinMusic
Hate time limits too, but required to keep games close to schedule.
Absolutely. Much as I disliked them we couldn't have tournaments with 36 teams in them without them.
It cost me and benefited me. Overall, as baseball often does, things evened out. |
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Butch21
14 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 14:31:22
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Once your son gets older, have him steal a base when his team is up 10 runs in the 5th....then make sure you tell him not to dig in during his next AB because he will likely take one in the ribs. It is never a bad thing to be a "winner"......blatant stalling (shoe ties, fake injuries like I mentioned) is pathetic...I assume you are in support of fake injuries in football to stop the momentum of a drive as well? There is a reason the NFL threatened fines/suspensions for that last season.
I understand mound visits...you get a certain number and you can use them at your discretion. When at bat, you can take pitches to slow it down....however, using stall tactics like the ones I mentioned takes away from the game in my opinion.
quote:
Originally posted by field6
Had it work for me and against me. Part of the game. Keep telling yourself you won't do it. I will always do it if it calls for it. Just being honest! Why in the world wouldn't you as a coach not want the 10th run? It has nothing to do with saving pitchers for me. It's about the win. Where and when did it become a bad thing to be a winner? At a travel ball level you have to change your thinking. I don't like time limits, but I coach within the rules from what we are given. Your in the championship game, you have 3 minutes left in the game. Your ahead by one run......well because I am a morale human that does no wrong, I am not calling time out to talk to my pitcher...I will just get this strike out and play another inning. Don't by it. If you do then shame on you. Coaches do your thing....nothing wrong with using strategy with the time under the clear discretion that it is within the rules.
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field6
72 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 15:16:19
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| Butch21-shoe ties, fake injuries, stupid stuff like that is dumb. Mound visits, changing catchers, calling one time per inning for a batter, taking pitches, ect.....I never mentioned using the dumb ones you said. Like I said that is stupid and does make a team look a bit rediculous. However your point about getting the 10th run to call the game on a mercy rule makes no sense to me. Your going to take one in the ribs because you tried to put the game away. Don't think so. Any coach in the position to put a game away on a mercy rule better jump on it. Any coach that doesn't wasn't raised like me back in the day....That is when you have the opportunity in good taste to defeat the other team, you do it and never look back. I would expect nothing else from a team playing against us. You better not let us hang around. We probably better not let your team hang around either. Taking one in the ribs usually results in a cocky player who runs that mouth. I have 3 boys 12-17. I have seen the shot in the ribs but never for trying to put the game away. |
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Butch21
14 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 15:57:07
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field6 - I guess it just comes down to the definition of "in good taste". You can usually tell when you have a team "put away" and don't need to run up the score. If we have a chance to put away a game with a run rule by continuing to hit/score, then of course we do that. I was talking about stealing bases up by 10 runs....usually viewed as running up the score.
We are getting off topic here....i think we all agree that time limits are a necessary evil of travel ball and blatant attempts to stall the game are ridiculous. |
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christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 17:13:30
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quote:
Originally posted by field6
Butch21-shoe ties, fake injuries, stupid stuff like that is dumb. Mound visits, changing catchers, calling one time per inning for a batter, taking pitches, ect.....I never mentioned using the dumb ones you said. Like I said that is stupid and does make a team look a bit rediculous. However your point about getting the 10th run to call the game on a mercy rule makes no sense to me. Your going to take one in the ribs because you tried to put the game away. Don't think so. Any coach in the position to put a game away on a mercy rule better jump on it. Any coach that doesn't wasn't raised like me back in the day....That is when you have the opportunity in good taste to defeat the other team, you do it and never look back. I would expect nothing else from a team playing against us. You better not let us hang around. We probably better not let your team hang around either. Taking one in the ribs usually results in a cocky player who runs that mouth. I have 3 boys 12-17. I have seen the shot in the ribs but never for trying to put the game away.
Agreed...Most coaches I have ever talked to, have ALWAYS wanted to put it away by run rule if at all possible. Its saves arms and they have all had it happen to them. |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 20:44:52
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quote:
Originally posted by christheump
quote:
Originally posted by field6
Butch21-shoe ties, fake injuries, stupid stuff like that is dumb. Mound visits, changing catchers, calling one time per inning for a batter, taking pitches, ect.....I never mentioned using the dumb ones you said. Like I said that is stupid and does make a team look a bit rediculous. However your point about getting the 10th run to call the game on a mercy rule makes no sense to me. Your going to take one in the ribs because you tried to put the game away. Don't think so. Any coach in the position to put a game away on a mercy rule better jump on it. Any coach that doesn't wasn't raised like me back in the day....That is when you have the opportunity in good taste to defeat the other team, you do it and never look back. I would expect nothing else from a team playing against us. You better not let us hang around. We probably better not let your team hang around either. Taking one in the ribs usually results in a cocky player who runs that mouth. I have 3 boys 12-17. I have seen the shot in the ribs but never for trying to put the game away.
Agreed...Most coaches I have ever talked to, have ALWAYS wanted to put it away by run rule if at all possible. Its saves arms and they have all had it happen to them.
Exactly |
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mjones9226
81 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2012 : 20:53:52
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| 2 years ago had opposing coach has pitcher throw pick offs to 1st base for nearly fifteen minutes. Only reason it wasn't fifteen was the time he took to make his mound visit. Guys still coaching, and still pulling the same stuff on a smaller scale. Has a lot of trouble keeping kids....I wonder why?? |
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sicemdawgs
25 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2012 : 16:04:02
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Any coach who has never watched the time hoping the second hand would move faster has never been in a tight game with a small lead, lol. That said, using "mound visits" or fake shoe tying to reach the time limit is against the spirit of the rule and is bad sportsmanship, if nothing else. The time limit is a practical rule, not a competitive one, and that kind of stalling should be frowned upon by everyone.
I disagree about being less aggressive with the lead to avoid winning by the run-rule. It's not showing up another team to go for the win when it's available, especially in a tourney situation when you need to save pitching. The mercy rule IS a competitive rule--it's one of the ways you can win a game--and it's not unsportsmanlike to try to win the game by aggressive play. On the contrary, dragging out a game against a clearly outmatched opponent (i.e., shooting fish in a barrel) strikes me as insulting to the other team. It's like saying, "We COULD win the game, but we're content to toy with you since we have no fear you can come back." |
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bbmom2
119 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2012 : 18:30:52
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| Played in a game last year. We were ahead by 1 and was the visiting team. Home team was up to bat - 2 outs, runner on 3rd. Time ticking down - less than a minutes to play on the clock. Opposing batter bunts. Catcher picks it up, throws to first. Inning over. Twelve seconds left and we played the last inning. Very clever and terrific use of clock to continue to play for a sure last inning. Had the batter not bunted, they may or may not have gotten the runner home for a tie and game would have been over. Even though we were on "non managed" time - a simple time out call and a trip to the mound for the catcher and pitcher would have ended the game. But still - darn clever. The home team still lost by one run but the last inning was a good one! |
Edited by - bbmom2 on 04/17/2012 21:54:18 |
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toprank
138 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2012 : 14:09:41
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| We were in a tight game a few years ago, we were on defense up by 1, had about 2 minutes left at the start of the inning, and we could have sent kids to the plate with their shoes untied or had the batter step out with one foot after every pitch and give him signals or have them take until they got 2 strikes. We played it normal and the other team was able to get their last at bat. We still won but after the game the coach came over and congratulated our whole team on playing the game correctly, and not letting the clock save us. He said in real baseball you can't be saved by the clock you guys put your kids out there and let them decide the outcome. My wife over heard the conversation and said she wanted my son to play for that coach the following year and still remembers that to this day. |
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Time limts?
