| Author |
 Topic  |
|
rippit
667 Posts |
 Posted - 04/07/2012 : 18:00:12
|
| Third weekend in a row. Playing 14u where every opposing team is using -10 non compliant bats. Our guys using -3 bbcor. Ridiculous. TDs don't care. |
|
|
nastycurve
244 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2012 : 23:36:33
|
| I feel you 100% rippit... Ive seen guys using whatever they want... Our guys use all BBCOR because they play JV and we are out here competing against -8.5 and -10.... Im cool with the -5's even though I think if you are 14u you should be swinging BBCOR but its crazy the bats that these guys are swinging. |
 |
|
|
sicemdawgs
25 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2012 : 23:54:51
|
| Did you ask the ump about it? Seems like that would be the first place to go. |
|
|
|
rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2012 : 13:03:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by sicemdawgs
Did you ask the ump about it? Seems like that would be the first place to go.
Of course we've told the umpires. That's not the point. The point is that we shouldn't have to. A man you trust to coach your child has no regard for the rules. Have you given any thought as to what else they have no regard for? |
|
|
|
Jack-of-Diamonds
152 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2012 : 17:00:35
|
If I understand correctly, there's no drop limit for 14u's in USSSA. Bats must be BBCOR or BPF 1.15, but otherwise players may use lighter bats.
That said, my team considers it in the players' best interest to use -3 and -5 so they'll be better prepared to play at 15 where they'll have to use a -3.
We've had one opposing coach ask for a bat check so far... after a base-clearing 2B gapper. The bat was legal, of course. We wouldn't let our guys use anything that wasn't, and it took the wind right out of the other team's sails. So, ask away! |
|
|
|
coachdan06
433 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2012 : 22:35:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by rippit
Of course we've told the umpires. That's not the point. The point is that we shouldn't have to. A man you trust to coach your child has no regard for the rules. Have you given any thought as to what else they have no regard for?
I heard That ! Bingo ! |
|
|
|
sicemdawgs
25 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2012 : 10:26:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by rippit
quote:
Originally posted by sicemdawgs
Did you ask the ump about it? Seems like that would be the first place to go.
Of course we've told the umpires. That's not the point. The point is that we shouldn't have to. A man you trust to coach your child has no regard for the rules. Have you given any thought as to what else they have no regard for?
I agree with you that coaches and players should follow the rules and practice good sportsmanship. I wouldn't let my son play on a team that cheated to win. I was just curious if the umpires backed you up when you raised the issue. |
|
|
|
DecaturDad
619 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2012 : 11:04:14
|
Rippit,
Are the bats USSSA stamped, but a drop 10? If so, they are legal, but I still don't see why a 14U should be using them. If they do not have the stamp, couldn't (or shouldn't ) the coach dispute the game? I guess that gets into a whole new can of worms. I know most coaches would want to take the high road and let the game stand. |
|
|
|
rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2012 : 11:24:54
|
sicem and decatur:
Some are and some aren't. One team had every kid using the same 2 bats - one a senior bat and one a thin barrel. IN 14U BASEBALL!!! Depends on the tournament. We've played a Grand Slam, a USSSA, a Nations and an independent in 3 different states. They all have different ways of "punishing" the cheaters beginning with a warning, so what's the point?
Yes, our coaches take the high road. However, there was some discussion this past weekend about fighting fire with fire, but who would that benefit? Besides, we usually win anyway with every kid swinging a BBCOR. It just sickens me to see the opposing parents/coaches all puffed out when some pint sized kid swinging a -10 pops one 300 feet. Fortunately that only happens when a pitch is left hanging. For the most part, our pitching is good enough that most batters don't get a bat on the ball anyway.
Those poor kids have such a false sense of swagger. It's the trickle down effect from their parents and coaches. Very sad. |
|
|
|
TAZ980002
831 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2012 : 11:26:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by DecaturDad
Rippit,
Are the bats USSSA stamped, but a drop 10? If so, they are legal, but I still don't see why a 14U should be using them. If they do not have the stamp, couldn't (or shouldn't ) the coach dispute the game? I guess that gets into a whole new can of worms. I know most coaches would want to take the high road and let the game stand.
100% agreement with this Decatur Dad |
|
|
|
db1966
28 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2012 : 00:27:18
|
First, coaching within the rules (or what is allowed) is not cheating. That said, my son is is playing JH ball so even though he could use a drop 10 at some tournaments I will only let him if we need an advantage against a tough team; thats coaching and within the rules.
2nd comment: The bat companies are making a KILLING! Any of us around baseball this much has seen the "comebacker" to the mound that has resulted in the new standards. The BBCOR will send the ball back to the pitcher just as quickly, just not as often.
As for USSSA and others, once the check has been cashed you are on your own! |
|
|
|
bkball
173 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2012 : 11:29:34
|
I don't see a problem if it is within the rules. If the rules allow a -5 or -8 then they should use whatever gives them the best chance of success. If this is a problem then don't enter any of those tournaments.
If not then why don't you have all your players use wood instead of metal? |
|
|
|
jay
177 Posts |
Posted - 04/10/2012 : 22:34:04
|
Great question. High school umps used to lay the bats out on the turf and do a quick inspection. Wonder what we pay these guys. If we don't pay enough to get quality oversight then we need to pay em more.
quote:
Originally posted by rippit
quote:
Originally posted by sicemdawgs
Did you ask the ump about it? Seems like that would be the first place to go.
Of course we've told the umpires. That's not the point. The point is that we shouldn't have to. A man you trust to coach your child has no regard for the rules. Have you given any thought as to what else they have no regard for?
|
|
|
|
christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2012 : 08:51:22
|
quote:
Originally posted by jay
Great question. High school umps used to lay the bats out on the turf and do a quick inspection. Wonder what we pay these guys. If we don't pay enough to get quality oversight then we need to pay em more.
quote:
Originally posted by rippit
quote:
Originally posted by sicemdawgs
Did you ask the ump about it? Seems like that would be the first place to go.
Of course we've told the umpires. That's not the point. The point is that we shouldn't have to. A man you trust to coach your child has no regard for the rules. Have you given any thought as to what else they have no regard for?
Look, it has nothing to do with "how much you pay these guys". When a coach is asked if HIS team is properly and LEGALLY equipped at the pregame plate meeting and he says yes, they better be. What would keep a player/team from showing an umpire one bat during inspection and then pulling out another one to use in the game? We would never know.
Everyone wants to blame everyone but the right person for these PLAYERS using illegal bats. It is like blaming the gun mfg's for people getting shot by guns. |
|
|
|
ramman999
241 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2012 : 13:52:07
|
quote:
Originally posted by christheump
Look, it has nothing to do with "how much you pay these guys". When a coach is asked if HIS team is properly and LEGALLY equipped at the pregame plate meeting and he says yes, they better be. What would keep a player/team from showing an umpire one bat during inspection and then pulling out another one to use in the game? We would never know.
Everyone wants to blame everyone but the right person for these PLAYERS using illegal bats. It is like blaming the gun mfg's for people getting shot by guns.
Great point -
Bottom line, it takes more than just the umpires to enforce the rules
|
|
|
|
Outtahere
43 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2012 : 17:43:52
|
| Some lawyer will be more than happy to take some coach or parent to the cleaners for letting little Johnny hit a liner at the pitcher causing an injury with an illegal bat! |
|
|
|
RACGOFAR
208 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2012 : 13:56:48
|
quote:
Originally posted by Outtahere
Some lawyer will be more than happy to take some coach or parent to the cleaners for letting little Johnny hit a liner at the pitcher causing an injury with an illegal bat!
As a practicing personal injury attorney, if I was presented a case where a serious injury occurred due to a sanctioning organization's failure to follow and enforce its own rules, then I certainly would take that case. Especially if the rule in question was put in place place to prevent the type of harm that was caused by the violation. |
|
|
|
christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2012 : 16:45:14
|
quote:
Originally posted by RACGOFAR
quote:
Originally posted by Outtahere
Some lawyer will be more than happy to take some coach or parent to the cleaners for letting little Johnny hit a liner at the pitcher causing an injury with an illegal bat!
As a practicing personal injury attorney, if I was presented a case where a serious injury occurred due to a sanctioning organization's failure to follow and enforce its own rules, then I certainly would take that case. Especially if the rule in question was put in place place to prevent the type of harm that was caused by the violation.
Let me ask you this, who all would you add to the suit? USSSA, TD, Umpire, Coach, Player, and players parent? |
Edited by - christheump on 04/12/2012 16:53:31 |
|
|
|
rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2012 : 18:15:06
|
Without a doubt.
quote:
Originally posted by christheump
quote:
Originally posted by RACGOFAR
quote:
Originally posted by Outtahere
Some lawyer will be more than happy to take some coach or parent to the cleaners for letting little Johnny hit a liner at the pitcher causing an injury with an illegal bat!
As a practicing personal injury attorney, if I was presented a case where a serious injury occurred due to a sanctioning organization's failure to follow and enforce its own rules, then I certainly would take that case. Especially if the rule in question was put in place place to prevent the type of harm that was caused by the violation.
Let me ask you this, who all would you add to the suit? USSSA, TD, Umpire, Coach, Player, and players parent?
|
|
|
|
Outtahere
43 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2012 : 20:31:42
|
| If it was mine I would include the player's parent, coach, TD and umpire and in that order. I understand your point that the coach agrees to the rules, etc. at the pregame meeting but if my son sustains an injury by an illegal bat then IT is going to hit the fan. I watch our coach adhere to the ump's rules every tournament. The ump should adhere to the bat rules and if he doesn't check then he in my opinion is liable to. Racgofar I would like your take since your the attorney. |
|
|
|
christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2012 : 22:42:23
|
| So, I will go back to my original point: What would keep the coach or player from going into the bag to pull out an illegal bat after I inspected the bat. You gonna sue me now? |
|
|
|
Forloveofthegame25
1 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2012 : 07:44:30
|
| Why can't the plate ump inspect the bats at each at bat? Would only take a few seconds. |
|
|
|
RACGOFAR
208 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2012 : 09:41:55
|
OKAY, this took a little thought and a lot of time to answer, so here it is.
Christheump, The bottom line is its on the coaches and the parents, but I am going to pursue the parties who were at fault. If we start with the basic fact that a player gets hit by a batted ball and an illegal bat was used. Then:
1) If the sanctioning body has a rule in place and they fail to enforce it, that's fault. (But they have rules about everyone following the rules, so they have a reasonable defense)
3) If the TD's are told to follow the rules and they don't then that's fault. (But the TD's tell the coaches and umps to follow the rules and Coaches, if you've ever bothered to read that tiny print on the roster sheets, etc. you'll see that you are promising to follow the rules).
2) If the umpires are told to check bats and they fail to do so, that's fault. (But they ask each coach if the players are properly equipped, which means more than, "Do your players have a cup on?") If the coach coach says yes, Umps can rely on that representation and do not have to check further. If a coach says "I don't know" they will send him back to the dugout to find out.
Christheump, I would suggest that at the pregame meeting you rephrase the question this way: Coaches are your players properly equipped? Does your team have any illegal equipment in the dugout? This requires a Yes, No answer and some thought on the part of the coach. It covers you as the coach is now representing that his team is compliant and you certainly can rely on that representation. If you later find that there is illegal equipment in the dugout or on the field, then perhaps that is grounds for ejection.
3) If the coach knows his player uses an illegal bat and lets them, that's fault. (No excuses, you been emailed the rules and you've read them online multiple times. If the ump asks you if your players are properly equipped, then your affirmative answer means you have assumed the duty of making sure that your players are properly and legally equipped for that game).
4) If the parent knows about the rule and lets his player use it, that's fault. (Yes, it sucks to buy a new bat, but the team can spring for a shared bat if you can't afford one, and you've been playing travel ball for years now, so your eyes are wide open about the expenses involved. And you have gotten the emails and know all about the rule too.)
5) If the bat manufacturer knowingly put a stamp on a non-compliant bat that's fault. (No excuse here, this would warrant punitive damages).
The simple fact is that the manufacturer's did this because there was a first ever verdict against Hillerich & Bradsby Co., an aluminum bat maker, in 2009 stemming from a 2003 incident where a kid was killed by a batted ball. That verdict woke up the industry much like the first verdicts against the Tobacco companies did.
I am frankly amazed that this thread is still going on. The bottom line is there is a bat rule in place for the safety of the players.
IT IS INCUMBENT UPON ALL OF US TO FOLLOW THE RULES AND PROTECT ALL THE PLAYERS ON THE FIELD-- PERIOD Read that again slowly.
This is not about worrying who will get sued, its about making sure a kid does not get badly injured or killed while playing baseball. The bat makers are smart. The tourney folks are smart. The umpires are smart. They have covered their bases on this.
The rest of us need to be smart. There is even a rule that says everybody participating agrees to abide by the rules. Coaches and parents, we have no excuse for an illegal bat even being in the dugout or on the field.
As a society, we rely on everyone else to follow the rules of the road or we may get killed. In the baseball community, we have to rely on each other, parents, coaches, players, umps, TD's, everyone, to insure the game is as safe for the players as it can possibly be. It does not matter that there is small chance of this scenario ever playing out in a game. It can happen, has happened, and it will happen in the future.
That kid on the mound is priceless, as are they all. I've had dozens of clients who have suffered through the death of a loved one in an accident. My clients have lost husbands, wives, mothers, fathers, children, grandparents. The child death cases are tough because as a parent I can't help but feel and experience that same pain my clients have had for their lost child. The loss of a child is somthing you never get over and just thinking about losing one of my sons makes my stomach knot up. If you get that same feeling thinking about losing your child, then imagine how you would feel if you let your son or one of your players use an illegal bat that cost a fellow parent or coach their child.
As a coach I had not really thought much about enforcement of this bat rule beyond my own team. But now I think we will ask the opposing coach at the pregame meeting if there are any illegal bats in the dugout, and if the answer is anything other than "No", then we will ask the coach to verify that there are none. We are going to cover our bases as coaches from now on.
I'll just sum up by saying that if you roll the dice with my kid or any other kid on the mound and let your player use an illegal bat, then you better be prepared to pay the price and live with the consequences. And it won't be just you who has to live with it. Your player will have to live with it, too. |
|
|
|
Grandcoach
21 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2012 : 10:05:32
|
Rag
Thanks for the post. I think it is the best one ever, and certainly covers the bases, and hopefully will open some eyes. |
|
|
|
christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2012 : 10:34:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by RACGOFAR
OKAY, this took a little thought and a lot of time to answer, so here it is.
Christheump, The bottom line is its on the coaches and the parents, but I am going to pursue the parties who were at fault. If we start with the basic fact that a player gets hit by a batted ball and an illegal bat was used. Then:
1) If the sanctioning body has a rule in place and they fail to enforce it, that's fault. (But they have rules about everyone following the rules, so they have a reasonable defense)
3) If the TD's are told to follow the rules and they don't then that's fault. (But the TD's tell the coaches and umps to follow the rules and Coaches, if you've ever bothered to read that tiny print on the roster sheets, etc. you'll see that you are promising to follow the rules).
2) If the umpires are told to check bats and they fail to do so, that's fault. (But they ask each coach if the players are properly equipped, which means more than, "Do your players have a cup on?") If the coach coach says yes, Umps can rely on that representation and do not have to check further. If a coach says "I don't know" they will send him back to the dugout to find out.
Christheump, I would suggest that at the pregame meeting you rephrase the question this way: Coaches are your players properly equipped? Does your team have any illegal equipment in the dugout? This requires a Yes, No answer and some thought on the part of the coach. It covers you as the coach is now representing that his team is compliant and you certainly can rely on that representation. If you later find that there is illegal equipment in the dugout or on the field, then perhaps that is grounds for ejection.
3) If the coach knows his player uses an illegal bat and lets them, that's fault. (No excuses, you been emailed the rules and you've read them online multiple times. If the ump asks you if your players are properly equipped, then your affirmative answer means you have assumed the duty of making sure that your players are properly and legally equipped for that game).
4) If the parent knows about the rule and lets his player use it, that's fault. (Yes, it sucks to buy a new bat, but the team can spring for a shared bat if you can't afford one, and you've been playing travel ball for years now, so your eyes are wide open about the expenses involved. And you have gotten the emails and know all about the rule too.)
5) If the bat manufacturer knowingly put a stamp on a non-compliant bat that's fault. (No excuse here, this would warrant punitive damages).
The simple fact is that the manufacturer's did this because there was a first ever verdict against Hillerich & Bradsby Co., an aluminum bat maker, in 2009 stemming from a 2003 incident where a kid was killed by a batted ball. That verdict woke up the industry much like the first verdicts against the Tobacco companies did.
I am frankly amazed that this thread is still going on. The bottom line is there is a bat rule in place for the safety of the players.
IT IS INCUMBENT UPON ALL OF US TO FOLLOW THE RULES AND PROTECT ALL THE PLAYERS ON THE FIELD-- PERIOD Read that again slowly.
This is not about worrying who will get sued, its about making sure a kid does not get badly injured or killed while playing baseball. The bat makers are smart. The tourney folks are smart. The umpires are smart. They have covered their bases on this.
The rest of us need to be smart. There is even a rule that says everybody participating agrees to abide by the rules. Coaches and parents, we have no excuse for an illegal bat even being in the dugout or on the field.
As a society, we rely on everyone else to follow the rules of the road or we may get killed. In the baseball community, we have to rely on each other, parents, coaches, players, umps, TD's, everyone, to insure the game is as safe for the players as it can possibly be. It does not matter that there is small chance of this scenario ever playing out in a game. It can happen, has happened, and it will happen in the future.
That kid on the mound is priceless, as are they all. I've had dozens of clients who have suffered through the death of a loved one in an accident. My clients have lost husbands, wives, mothers, fathers, children, grandparents. The child death cases are tough because as a parent I can't help but feel and experience that same pain my clients have had for their lost child. The loss of a child is somthing you never get over and just thinking about losing one of my sons makes my stomach knot up. If you get that same feeling thinking about losing your child, then imagine how you would feel if you let your son or one of your players use an illegal bat that cost a fellow parent or coach their child.
As a coach I had not really thought much about enforcement of this bat rule beyond my own team. But now I think we will ask the opposing coach at the pregame meeting if there are any illegal bats in the dugout, and if the answer is anything other than "No", then we will ask the coach to verify that there are none. We are going to cover our bases as coaches from now on.
I'll just sum up by saying that if you roll the dice with my kid or any other kid on the mound and let your player use an illegal bat, then you better be prepared to pay the price and live with the consequences. And it won't be just you who has to live with it. Your player will have to live with it, too.
In no way do I mean any disrespect and if you personally knew me, you would know that the kids safety is first and foremost with me, BUT you sound like a typical attorney. Why does accountability and blame ALWAYS get shifted to those who are not responsible for the act? Your comments really sound like that you would want a piece of anyone who was involved regardless how small their role. Heck, why not include the bat bag mfg for failing to put an illegal bat detector in the bags or Rawlings, Worth, Wilson, or Diamond for failing to make anti-illegal bat balls. Where does the line get drawn. It is a sad state when I have to put on my gear and worry about being held accountable for the illegal acts of others. Blame the coach, player, and players parents.
Maybe the next tourney I call I will bring a stack of indemnity clauses that I make each parent, player, and coach sign before I call to play ball. I am person who loves to umpire, not an attorney. If I ask a coach if his team is properly and legally equipped, and he says yes: It's on them and not me. |
Edited by - christheump on 04/13/2012 10:38:15 |
|
|
|
bulldogbaseball100
59 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2012 : 10:58:45
|
| RACGOFAR - Post of the year for me! So much so that it fanned even more passionate flames as I visualize my son...or any other player, suffering serious injury or death. Sick to my stomach. You guys know who you are. Many on this site know who you are. It is never too late to do the right thing. So stop it NOW! My favorite definition of Integrity follows what you do when no one is watching. So just do it - get rid of the bat and protect these kids. If you are a parent or coach that, if you are honest with yourself, knows of someone with a shaved bat... make a stand, have a private conversation and help protect our kids. "It" only has to happen once and anyone that kinda knew but did nothing will carry the burden for the rest of their lives. Time to step up to the plate! |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Tired of these cheater coaches
