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steviejayw
13 Posts |
 Posted - 03/09/2012 : 11:11:14
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Long time reader, first time poster.
OK. Here's the scenario.
I am a head coach for a 5/6 rec league team. Our league allows 3 locks and we have a draft after a quick player evaluation.
I locked my son (1B) , and my assistant coaches sons P and 2B. I took care of the right side of the infield because in 5/6 thats where most outs come from. All 3 hit well, and are probable all-stars.
The draft is where it gets interesting. We rate players 1-4 stars. My first 3 picks were my 'locked' players, so every team would have a shot at the better players. My 4th pick was the last remaining 3 star player. So now I have 2 4's and 2 3's. On my 7th and 8th picks, I selected a pair of twins that were rated 2 stars. They could not come to the evaluation, so they were given a default rating based on experience and age. Well, as it turns out, the twins' rating would have been more accurate if they were rated 4 stars.
To add to this...some of my 1 and 2 stars are starting to 'get it' and they are getting better...fast.
Now I am hearing from people around the league that we have stacked our team. We haven't even played a game yet, and all kinds of negative remarks are being thrown my way. Believe me when I tell you that I am humble in my demeanor, and I concentrate on teaching the kids the game. All of the kids are having fun, and are improving. I have been explaining to a few people that will listen that I evaluated the kids, and picked the available kids that I thought were undervalued at the evaluation, and seemed coachable.
I am sure this scenario is not uncommon, but it is the first time I have been through this. This is my first year as a head coach, after a few years of being an assistant. Any insight you guys can give me will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Stevie |
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sicemdawgs
25 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2012 : 11:51:00
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quote:
Originally posted by steviejayw
Long time reader, first time poster.
OK. Here's the scenario.
I am a head coach for a 5/6 rec league team. Our league allows 3 locks and we have a draft after a quick player evaluation.
I locked my son (1B) , and my assistant coaches sons P and 2B. I took care of the right side of the infield because in 5/6 thats where most outs come from. All 3 hit well, and are probable all-stars.
The draft is where it gets interesting. We rate players 1-4 stars. My first 3 picks were my 'locked' players, so every team would have a shot at the better players. My 4th pick was the last remaining 3 star player. So now I have 2 4's and 2 3's. On my 7th and 8th picks, I selected a pair of twins that were rated 2 stars. They could not come to the evaluation, so they were given a default rating based on experience and age. Well, as it turns out, the twins' rating would have been more accurate if they were rated 4 stars.
To add to this...some of my 1 and 2 stars are starting to 'get it' and they are getting better...fast.
Now I am hearing from people around the league that we have stacked our team. We haven't even played a game yet, and all kinds of negative remarks are being thrown my way. Believe me when I tell you that I am humble in my demeanor, and I concentrate on teaching the kids the game. All of the kids are having fun, and are improving. I have been explaining to a few people that will listen that I evaluated the kids, and picked the available kids that I thought were undervalued at the evaluation, and seemed coachable.
I am sure this scenario is not uncommon, but it is the first time I have been through this. This is my first year as a head coach, after a few years of being an assistant. Any insight you guys can give me will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Stevie
You do have a stacked team by the sounds of it. If the other coaches don't have three "coach-locked" star players like you do (they're already a notch behind you), plus you got a bargain by picking up the twins that didn't show at the evaluation. Now you have 5 star players not including your "3 star" pick. If you have 5 or 6 all-star quality players in a 5/6 rec league you're stacked. Doesn't mean you've done anything wrong if you didn't try to rig the draft. The only thing that sounds fishy are your 4 star twins that were rated 2 star because they didn't try out. If I was one of the other coaches with only 3 or 4 good players I'd probably be pretty suspicious about that, lol.
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Tribe
82 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2012 : 12:02:26
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This seems to be an awfully complex analysis for a 5/6 rec team, but I'll play along.
At this age, no kid should be assigned a static position. Rotate your stronger players to less critical positions, thereby giving your weaker players more action through exposure to the slots on the right side (and everywhere else). Everyone (including yours and your assistants' kids) will be better off.
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dad4kids
109 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2012 : 12:36:50
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We need far more data to properly analyze the caliber of these five and six year old players with the requisite level of attention. How about some Sabermetrics? How about some more information about their measurables: height, weight, bench press, 40 times, etc.? Also some some biographical info for each player. What's their gene pool like? Any former athletes within three degrees of separation?
If you can get this to everybody in an Excel format and limit it to 40 pages per player, that'd be great. |
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rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2012 : 12:42:19
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Assuming everything you say is the God's honest truth...
1 - If you let what other t-ball coaches think now, you won't be able to handle things later (peewee, minors, majors and god forbid ALLSTARS) because it only gets worse.
2 - stick to your story, coach EVERY player, let them all play circle and infield at some point, and don't make a habit of ever bending to some whiny parent. The parents who keep their mouths shut hate when that happens.
3 - They are 5 and 6 years old!!! If some other daddy coach is having a stroke because he may not win the t-ball championship then he's got the problem, not you.
I'll admit that I'm right up there with the baseball addicts when it comes to my son, but if I had it to do all over again, I only have one wish. That one wish is that someone who'd been there/done that would take me aside and prepare me for all the strange things people will do over the next 15 years all in the name of a trophy, championship, all star placement and so on.
I know a lot of ruined kids at 14-15 thanks to the strange things people do...I'm just sayin'. The next 10-15 years for you will be gone in a flash and you don't want to have any regrets. Play it straight up and you'll be in the group of dad coaches that are doing it right and for the right reasons. Believe me, it's a miniscule group. |
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wareagle
324 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2012 : 13:53:53
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| This is very common in rec ball, either intentional or not. Problem is, it will not be very fun for the teams you play to get pounded, and the better teams dont learn as much because the competiton they face is poor. The problem is that the draft systems for the most part are flawed and they allow for the system to be manipulated at times. To prevent the situation you described, our rec dept talked about rating the kids that did not attend evaluations with the highest possible rating. If you think they are complaining now, just wait till all star time!LOL |
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JoltinJoe
8 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2012 : 14:21:35
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Stevie,
First of all in rec ball, to get a good team you need to have two experienced coaches kids. Being able to lock up another experienced kid is a bonus. Several coaches, won't have coaches kids that are any good, so that by itself will probably mean that you'll beat those teams.
As for drafting players, everyone evaluates different, and you'd think that people would take the best players available, but often times they don't, or they just are bad evaluators. In my draft this year, the kid I got in the 6th round is better than some kids taken in the 1st round.
I completely disagree with what Tribe said. At 5/6 it's about developing players that have passion, and letting them build and improve, not punishing them for being better players. I've been in this situation, and I would always play the kids that deserve to play the INF for at least the first three innings, establish a big enough lead, and then let the inexperienced kids get an inning of infield duty. If you get to the 5th inning before mercy rule, then try your experienced kids at other infield positions.
Never have regret if your team is better than others, remember, the kids are the one's playing the game and it's for them. Reward those that work hard, and show improvement, and be grateful you are not coaching kids that are beginners. |
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steviejayw
13 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2012 : 14:22:29
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Good idea. Thanks.
quote:
Originally posted by Tribe
This seems to be an awfully complex analysis for a 5/6 rec team, but I'll play along.
At this age, no kid should be assigned a static position. Rotate your stronger players to less critical positions, thereby giving your weaker players more action through exposure to the slots on the right side (and everywhere else). Everyone (including yours and your assistants' kids) will be better off.
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steviejayw
13 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2012 : 14:32:50
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Everyone had the same opportunity to lock 3 players. The locked players went through evals also and were rated as well. In the draft when we went to pick the 4's, I had to pick my locks first. The other teams, if they did not have a 4 locked were able to pick a unlocked 4. We're just about all equal on those.
The fact that I got the twins that were greatly underrated is what I believe put me over the top. They were 2 of the last 3 2star players available (my #7 & #8 picks). It does sound fishy that they were 2 stars, but even I passed on them for my first 2 2 star picks.
quote:
Originally posted by sicemdawgs
[quote]Originally posted by steviejayw
You do have a stacked team by the sounds of it. If the other coaches don't have three "coach-locked" star players like you do (they're already a notch behind you), plus you got a bargain by picking up the twins that didn't show at the evaluation. Now you have 5 star players not including your "3 star" pick. If you have 5 or 6 all-star quality players in a 5/6 rec league you're stacked. Doesn't mean you've done anything wrong if you didn't try to rig the draft. The only thing that sounds fishy are your 4 star twins that were rated 2 star because they didn't try out. If I was one of the other coaches with only 3 or 4 good players I'd probably be pretty suspicious about that, lol.
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steviejayw
13 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2012 : 14:58:59
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Working on that now. I'll post it when finished.
quote:
Originally posted by dad4kids
We need far more data to properly analyze the caliber of these five and six year old players with the requisite level of attention. How about some Sabermetrics? How about some more information about their measurables: height, weight, bench press, 40 times, etc.? Also some some biographical info for each player. What's their gene pool like? Any former athletes within three degrees of separation?
If you can get this to everybody in an Excel format and limit it to 40 pages per player, that'd be great.
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coach0512
123 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2012 : 15:55:32
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Enough posters have written about what to do with the kids.
I'll tell you what may happen to you and your coaches.
Way back 6 years ago when I was evaluating rec league players and going through the same thing you are with the locked players and draft at the age of 6, the other coach and I picked who we thought were the best 12 players available. In the draft room we were amazed at some of the kids who were being picked. We had those same kids rated very low or middle of the pack. We were picking kids the other coaches thought were very low rated and even laughed when we picked a 4 year old for the 6 year old team (he would turn five just a week after evals).
At the end of the season we were undefeated having run ruled almost every team and that 4 year old eventually went on to be a first round pick constantly and made all-stars consistently. All the other coaches and most other parents disliked our team and coaching staffs saying we stacked the team, somehow cheated, it was not fair, they must be coaching the kids too hard, they should have had to send some of their players to other teams, etc.
From that season all the way to now, 6 years later, out of rec ball and playing travel, there are still rumors and lies thrown around about that season. There is even a family playing with me now who doesn't like me because of that season.
Not one of those haters ever approached us coaches and discussed it with us, they just hated. So, ya move on and keep doin' what you're doin' and they can live with their hate.
Bottom line is- Pick the kids you think are best, coach them as best you can, and if the other coaches picked the wrong kids, it's on them, not you. ANY coach in that draft room could have taken the twins but they passed because they did not like a 2 star rated kid. Thats their fault, not yours. |
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CoachDad
52 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2012 : 23:14:58
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Luckily, you haven't played any games yet. There is still plenty of time t tank the season and prove the haters wrong.
:-) |
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RACGOFAR
208 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2012 : 23:27:03
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It's funny how the good coaches always seem to get stacked teams. I was accused of this it seems like every year. you got to pick one kid per round like everyone else. You have 4 allstar caliber players, 4 kids right behind them and 4 kids who enjoy playing in the dirt and live for the snack after the game. So does every other team. If you spend time working with those bottom 4 kids, you will have a super stacked team by the end of the season.
Inevitably there are 2-3 coaches in each park per age group that seem to always have the talented kids. Or maybe they just know how to teach young kids the game of baseball. Focus on your players and not what the naysayers think. Don't focus on winning, focus on having fun and giving kids a chance to play everywhere within their ability to do so.
Something we did that became a tradition in those younger leagues was to let the moms coach the last game of the season while the coaches sit in the stands. Talk about fun to watch, you'll never see Moms more fired up than when they are on the
field! |
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coachdan06
433 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2012 : 00:34:14
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Well Im glad to hear you made your bones and worked up to being a 5 and 6 year old coach -- after a couple years of assisting .
For me ,its very diffficuly to imagine anyone being so worked up about the draft of a kindergarten baseball legue .
quote:
Originally posted by stevieja yw
Long time reader, first time poster.
OK. Here's the scenario.
I am a head coach for a 5/6 rec league team. Our league allows 3 locks and we have a draft after a quick player evaluation.
I locked my son (1B) , and my assistant coaches sons P and 2B. I took care of the right side of the infield because in 5/6 thats where most outs come from. All 3 hit well, and are probable all-stars.
The draft is where it gets interesting. We rate players 1-4 stars. My first 3 picks were my 'locked' players, so every team would have a shot at the better players. My 4th pick was the last remaining 3 star player. So now I have 2 4's and 2 3's. On my 7th and 8th picks, I selected a pair of twins that were rated 2 stars. They could not come to the evaluation, so they were given a default rating based on experience and age. Well, as it turns out, the twins' rating would have been more accurate if they were rated 4 stars.
To add to this...some of my 1 and 2 stars are starting to 'get it' and they are getting better...fast.
Now I am hearing from people around the league that we have stacked our team. We haven't even played a game yet, and all kinds of negative remarks are being thrown my way. Believe me when I tell you that I am humble in my demeanor, and I concentrate on teaching the kids the game. All of the kids are having fun, and are improving. I have been explaining to a few people that will listen that I evaluated the kids, and picked the available kids that I thought were undervalued at the evaluation, and seemed coachable.
I am sure this scenario is not uncommon, but it is the first time I have been through this. This is my first year as a head coach, after a few years of being an assistant. Any insight you guys can give me will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Stevie
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loveforthegame25
448 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2012 : 22:46:05
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| just have fun with it while you can. Before you know it your son will be in High school and you'll be just a dad in the bleachers. Have fun with it man. |
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biged
198 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2012 : 00:11:13
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| Memories, Memories. Back 12 yrs ago my son (Now a Junior) and I started our baseball quest in Miami. At 4 and 5 parents/coaches would tell the kids to sand bag it in tryouts. It worked for 1 season and the other coaches like me who were not in the Know learned who could play and things evened out. However, I credit this experience for making my son a stronger, more competitive and determined athlete/person. Nothing makes a person stronger then competing against better stronger opponents. |
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Jack-of-Diamonds
152 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2012 : 11:57:47
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Don't sweat it. You'll be moving to travel in a year or two!
You've got a core of good players and you're already experiencing the "joy" of rec politics. Many a travel team have been created from that formula. Not that politics don't come along with travel, but you will likely at least escape the scrutiny of other league coaches and be playing in a realm where "stacking the team" is a necessary and accepted goal. |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2012 : 15:48:08
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Did you have anything to do with the rating of the 2 star players and did you know better?
Did you have anything to do with the fact that they didn't come to evaluations?
If the answer to either is 'yes', then the carping is somewhat valid.
A not unheard of trick is for someone to tell a friend whose kid is a really good player to not come to tryouts and then the coach would pick them fairly early in the draft. Our league solved that by creating "hat picks". That is, all the kids that did not come were pulled out of a hat after all the kids that did come were drafted. So anybody who didn't come to tryouts was randomly assigned a team.
And if you are just playing one kid at first or second, the two most fun positions at that age, you are taking winning way too seriously.
Our league had a rule that every kid had to play at least 3 (I think, it's been awhile) innings at a non-catcher infield position and no kid could play the same position more than two innings in a row.
I can't believe I just wrote this many words about 5-6 YO baseball. |
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Stinger1
59 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2012 : 08:08:08
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| In rec ball chances are good there will always be a team out there that rec parents will call stacked. I'm sure everyone of us has been down this road before I know I have. We left the park and have been traveling since mine were 7. When we were at the park I worked with my kids a little more than everyone. It's funny how you get frowned upon for teaching your kids to be not only great but winners. My suggestion is play this year out - if you run the table expand out into some tournaments. Isn't that what we are suppossed to do is make our kids better and stronger? If you are coaching your kids to be better - you are doing your job. |
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steviejayw
13 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2012 : 12:16:38
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No to both questions. I don't know why they didn't make the evals. They played in the league last year, but I don't remember them. They both dandelion pickers in the outfield last year (or so their dad says.)
quote:
Originally posted by AllStar
Did you have anything to do with the rating of the 2 star players and did you know better?
Did you have anything to do with the fact that they didn't come to evaluations?
If the answer to either is 'yes', then the carping is somewhat valid.
A not unheard of trick is for someone to tell a friend whose kid is a really good player to not come to tryouts and then the coach would pick them fairly early in the draft. Our league solved that by creating "hat picks". That is, all the kids that did not come were pulled out of a hat after all the kids that did come were drafted. So anybody who didn't come to tryouts was randomly assigned a team.
And if you are just playing one kid at first or second, the two most fun positions at that age, you are taking winning way too seriously.
Our league had a rule that every kid had to play at least 3 (I think, it's been awhile) innings at a non-catcher infield position and no kid could play the same position more than two innings in a row.
I can't believe I just wrote this many words about 5-6 YO baseball.
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steviejayw
13 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2012 : 12:21:12
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Thanks for the replies. I will take a lot from this thread.
As for the folks saying that I take 5/6 too serious, it's the age group that I'm at right now. I'm sure in a few years, you guys will say...'Travel ball is taken too seriously...college is where its at.'
I do concentrate on learning and having fun, and not so much on winning.
Good luck this year to all.
Stevie |
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sicemdawgs
25 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2012 : 13:08:56
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quote:
Originally posted by steviejayw
Thanks for the replies. I will take a lot from this thread.
As for the folks saying that I take 5/6 too serious, it's the age group that I'm at right now. I'm sure in a few years, you guys will say...'Travel ball is taken too seriously...college is where its at.'
I do concentrate on learning and having fun, and not so much on winning.
Good luck this year to all.
Stevie
Nothing wrong with wanting to do a good job coaching 6u baseball. A rigged team isn't the same thing as a stacked team. Like I said before, it sounds like you have a pretty stacked team, but it doesn't sound like you rigged the system to get it. You got lucky with a few players and you wrapped up 3 good ones with your son and your coaches sons (allowing 3 coach freezes on a 6u rec will always lead to at least one or two stacked teams). Having a team with substantially more or less talent than the other kids at that age isn't really a good thing anyway. The most fun year I coached was 7u and I had a team with 5 kids who had never played before. We had a good team even though we couldn't beat the teams that did rig the draft (i.e., they had to have certain kids that happened to be all stars because they were going to ride together, lol). Still, our good kids got much better playing close games and it was fun watching the kids who hadn't played before having fun and developing a love for baseball.
I've had the "stacked" team and my son has played on teams I didn't coach that were the opposite (in other sports). Kids don't get better blowing out teams without any good players, and kids on teams without a lot of talent don't get much out of getting blown out by rigged teams. IMO rec directors should make a bigger effort to create parity in youth rec leagues. Better and more fun for everyone involved, except the uber-competitive dad/coaches that get off on having an undefeated, run-rule season. |
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wareagle
324 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2012 : 14:39:14
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quote:
Better and more fun for everyone involved, except the uber-competitive dad/coaches that get off on having an undefeated, run-rule season. quote:
I thought it was just my town! I think it is usually more about making sure you or one or your friends is the all star coach so that they can make sure thier sons make the team. Isn't it common practice for coaches to pick all stars before the season begins so they can make sure they all end up on the same division??LOL.
Reality usually sets in when these all star coaches decide to sign up for a travelball tournament. |
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Bigwhitevan
67 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2012 : 19:26:05
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| I will agree you have a stacked team. To assist other teams and not "throw games" start early on all star education with your better players. Have them play left side and left field and get outs at third. Then switch them to right side and get kids at third or home. It lets more of the other team bat in an inning and will help your all star team. The lead runner out becomes much more important in all stars where hardly anybody hits it to pitcher. Not something you HAVE to do because your team is stacked but if the other team bats more than three per inning the parents tone down the stacked talk. Now coaches always complain!!! Lol!!! |
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Calif_Baseball
292 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2012 : 13:39:32
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| Best Advice I have given.... GET OUT OF REC BALL ASAP!!! The drama never stops. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2012 : 15:02:57
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Yeah, it stops at travel ball!
quote:
Originally posted by Calif_Baseball
Best Advice I have given.... GET OUT OF REC BALL ASAP!!! The drama never stops.
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Winners' Remorse?
