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christheump
351 Posts |
 Posted - 01/27/2012 : 08:22:16
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I was looking at some of the upcoming tournaments and the teams that are listed to play and looked at the roster for one particular team and noticed one player that has been on the roster for almost 20 teams in the last 3-4 years.
As a coach, when you are looking at a prospective player to join your team, do you use this a factor in your decision making? If you saw this, would the thought cross your mind that this kid and/or parents will be a bear to have on your bench or stands? Or would you simply overlook this?
Personally it would be a major red flag and tells me that they are the type of family that will "just take their ball and go home" if things do not go their way. Am I way of the mark here? |
Edited by - christheump on 01/27/2012 08:23:03 |
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utilityplayer
15 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2012 : 09:42:49
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| Nope. Players that hop teams that frequently are usually trouble, or their parents are. Smart coaches avoid them, but sometimes the coach does not know about this problem until too late. |
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T13
257 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2012 : 09:42:59
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Christheump, Diamond Bears Baseball looking forward to having you do some of our games this year!
We agree wholeheartedly with your assumption....of course we have pretty much been a team that started as a dixie youth allstar team 4 years ago (and our location limits us recruiting that next great stud :))....we've had to pick up a kid or two over the years but we are more interested in the family and how the player fits with our other kids (not some superstar who may win us a trophy.) Our kids love playing ball and hanging out and that is what is important.
Not sure why anyone would fly a kid across country to play for a team at this age? Many individuals on this board and througout travel sports have lost perspective on what is important.... |
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excoach12
159 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2012 : 10:00:35
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It would be cause for discussion but I am willing to bet that the player has simply been a guest on those teams for one or two tourneys.
During the spring/summer season my son is dedicated to his main team and plays only with them. But their season ends the last week of June so in July he is a pick-up player for other teams because he wants to keep playing.
In the fall, with such a light tournament schedule and teams do not do more than practice once or twice a week, he will continue to play in tournaments for teams that are shorthanded. That way he gets more reps at the plate and more mound time and stays in playing shape. December, January and into February is his off season and he does very little.
So I imagine he shows on many rosters but was not a permanent part of the team. |
Edited by - excoach12 on 01/27/2012 10:09:06 |
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christheump
351 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2012 : 10:36:51
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quote:
Originally posted by T13
Christheump, Diamond Bears Baseball looking forward to having you do some of our games this year!
We agree wholeheartedly with your assumption....of course we have pretty much been a team that started as a dixie youth allstar team 4 years ago (and our location limits us recruiting that next great stud :))....we've had to pick up a kid or two over the years but we are more interested in the family and how the player fits with our other kids (not some superstar who may win us a trophy.) Our kids love playing ball and hanging out and that is what is important.
Not sure why anyone would fly a kid across country to play for a team at this age? Many individuals on this board and througout travel sports have lost perspective on what is important....
I look forward to it as well.... I really enjoyed your boys at State last year...you have a great group of coaches, parents, and kids. |
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injunchief2
76 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2012 : 11:37:14
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I avoid players like that like the plague !!
The coaches that allow them on are chasing victories at the expense of their "regular" players.
The goal of youth baseball is development, not chasing meaningless trophies !
If your coach adds one of these "rental players" he's admitting that he doesn't have the talent to coach up his current roster. |
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JABA
16 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2012 : 12:36:32
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| Wow, a lot of assumptions as to why a player may be guest playing. I have seen teams that added players for a weekend because of injury, sickness at the last minute, vacations, etc. In my experience, most of the time these teams are just looking to play baseball and need temporary help. As a coach, I have no problem with a player that helps out like this. However, the player who flies down to Florida to play one tournament for a team is doing something else completely. Also, if a kid is truly changing their regular team multiple times, then that is obviously a red flag. Most coaches tend to know what players are really jumping ship and what players are just helping out a team that needs it. |
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SMASH
253 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2012 : 13:41:31
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Correct me if I'm wrong but in the Fall you can play for anyone you like or as many teams you like without being added to an official roster that would show up on USSSA. Also in the spring a team can pick up players or bring in guest players without adding them to their official roster up until the rosters are frozen (mid April?).
In my opinion, any way you slice it, a player that shows up on multiple rosters in one year or numerous years is a major red flag.
The parents of these kids are in it for the wrong reasons. |
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Mad1
252 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2012 : 14:41:59
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| After January 1, any player you play does have to be on roster, just dont become frozen until you qualify. Fall doesnt require a official roster unless Snit tourney is he way I understand it. |
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oldschooldad
203 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2012 : 15:02:45
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quote:
Originally posted by JABA
Wow, a lot of assumptions as to why a player may be guest playing. I have seen teams that added players for a weekend because of injury, sickness at the last minute, vacations, etc. In my experience, most of the time these teams are just looking to play baseball and need temporary help. As a coach, I have no problem with a player that helps out like this. However, the player who flies down to Florida to play one tournament for a team is doing something else completely. Also, if a kid is truly changing their regular team multiple times, then that is obviously a red flag. Most coaches tend to know what players are really jumping ship and what players are just helping out a team that needs it.
How about playing short handed if a regular players is out? Or maybe giving a chance to the other players to fill in and maybe step up. If the reason for adding a player is only for depth because you are a kid down, then get any willing player. Why do teams always get a Stud? Teams with very large rosters will pick a player or two for big events and they are always strong pitchers or hitters or both. Must have them batting clean up also.
Not something I think is appropriate.
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rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2012 : 15:03:41
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While it's best to have a set roster, there are many times a newer less established team has issues fielding enough players any given weekend to make it worthwhile to even spend the money to play. USSSA rosters are kinda goofy anyway. Again, newer teams get all amped up and put rosters online prematurely resulting in some teams showing 30 playears or more because they started in August of some year and by the next spring only settled on the final roster due to players hopping off and on.
I hate it when a new guy is brought in for the weekend, but with those silly 3 inning limits with USSSA, you just run out of pitchers if you only bring 9 guys cause 2 decided they'd rather be at the beach or something. So you get some pitching help. Or some catching help.
But who complains? The kid's parents when their kid doesn't pitch OR catch.
If everybody would just stop being so quick to add players to the online rosters and pay attention to the rules, the whole thing would look cleaner.
As for those who TRULY roster hop - we know who you are at this point so while you may get a call to fill in and if that particular roster gets FROZEN as a result of that tournament - you may be stuck...just sayin'. |
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mdschert
47 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2012 : 16:53:23
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| This is our 4th year of travel ball and our 4th team. There was a good reason each yr we decided to change teams. The first year was a complete disaster, the team won only one game the entire season. The boys could not catch or throw, really disappointing. There is one inning that is etched in my mind permanently, the team dropped THREE easy infield pop-ups and had several errors on top of that. The team did not have any talent whatsoever, so thought it would be a good idea to look for another team. The second team was great and loved the coaches and parents. I found out that the coach had no plans for cooperstown so we looked for a another team at 11u. The 11u team had great kids, coaches and parents but team decided not to go to cooperstown at the end of the season. We are on a diferent 12u team now planning to go to cooperstown. I consider myself a very supportive parent with no trouble whatsoever. So do not judge kids/parents that move from one team to another. |
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SMASH
253 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2012 : 21:20:26
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Mdshert,
Nothing wrong with your situation. The original post on this topic was talking about kids that appear on 20 different rosters in 4 years also known as team-hoppers or renta-players. |
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mdschert
47 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2012 : 06:43:56
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| The red flag comments bothered me, my point was not to judge parents/kids. If my kid had an open weekend and was invited to play for another team I would let him. It would be a great experience for him to meet new kids and play for a different coach. If it had no negative impact on his current team then why not? |
Edited by - mdschert on 01/28/2012 08:08:23 |
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wareagle
324 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2012 : 09:31:09
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mdschert,
It can be fun, but it can also be very uncomfortable. Make sure that u know the whole situation. It is no fun sitting in the stands beside the parent of the kid that is sitting the bench because you "filled in". We have done this in the past when we thought a team "needed" a player, and it turned out the coach just "wanted" a player. There is a difference. |
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oldschooldad
203 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2012 : 13:29:54
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quote:
Originally posted by mdschert
The red flag comments bothered me, my point was not to judge parents/kids. If my kid had an open weekend and was invited to play for another team I would let him. It would be a great experience for him to meet new kids and play for a different coach. If it had no negative impact on his current team then why not?
The point of many of tthe comments is that it does very often have a negative impacy on the other players on the team.
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SMASH
253 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2012 : 15:38:51
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| Among the many life lessons we teach are loyalty and commitement. |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2012 : 16:35:55
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| I don't know, we always play for a few teams after our regular season ends or if we have a couple weeks off in a row. Once we had to play with another team because our regular team didn't qualify for the tourney we originally planned on. I think our whole family likes it and we have met some really great people along the way, I talk to the head coach from a team from Alabama we played with more than our own coach. It is pretty incredible how many friends these boys have already at 10/11/12 years old. I would guess it is pretty obvious why people pick up a good player, if you are going to add a player for a big tourney or WS event I don't think many would see it as helpful to add a scrub. Many of these big tourneys take 6-8 games to win....Competing against the other top level teams I would think you would almost have to bring in an arm along the way, unless there is a team with 6-8 great pitchers out there...I haven't seen one so far at our age groups. |
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Hurricane
351 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2012 : 09:48:14
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quote:
Originally posted by SMASH
Among the many life lessons we teach are loyalty and commitement.
Loyalty to God, family and Country but what else? Loyalty to your job? if a better one comes along we usually take the better job. People do what is best for them and I think in baseball parents are trying to do what they "think" is best for their kids. Sometimes completely wrong.
How many coaches keep or ask every single player back from the previous year? What about loyalty from that side? I have had players that when I researched their previous coaches, they told me don't take him because his dad will cause problems. We took the chance and the player was with us 2 seasons and dad was a fine, not perfect but the player was worth it. |
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seminole tony
147 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2012 : 14:34:27
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I see where alot of these comments are coming from...but if there is a team needing a player and the child wants to play, why not. This is travel ball and not rec. ball.
The best play.
If you commit to a team but your child is only a sub-par player and the team goes to a tournament knowing this and opts to pick up help, thats a team problem. Not the child stepping up and sometimes over the lesser child.
This is where and why travel ball has become WATERED DOWN.
Rules were put in place to help keep team hoppers in check during the regular season. Fall is a different story.
This pops up every year and there's always parents and coaches who whine about it. Pick the best at tryouts and field your team. Don't worry about the other team unless "Rules" are broken.
Some kids go and play for different teams because of the childs needs. Some kids hop from team to team for the parents needs. All in all worry about you and let the other kids parents do for themselves.
The most noise usually comes from the sub-par players and teams.
STEP UP
I would not be happy putting my son on the N.Y. Yankees team and expecting him to play. Place your child on the team best suited to his abilities. Travel ball is not for everyone. |
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wareagle
324 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2012 : 15:54:26
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Tony,
I have said several times on this board that I don't agree with "pick ups" as they are currently being allowed, and the privilege abused by some teams. I do not view it as "whining", and I do not take it personal that some disagree with me. What I do feel, is the "rules" need to change and I think more people agree with me than disagree. I also know that many tournament directors, etc read this board.
If I realized that a majority of my customers or clients had a problem with one of my policies, I would look at the possibility of changing it.
If you read the way the rules were written, I believe the intent was to limit this activity. But teams have simply found ways to work around the rules.I really don't think that when the rules were written, they thought that people would be flying prepubescent kids across the country or from other countries to win tournaments.
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Edited by - wareagle on 01/30/2012 16:40:16 |
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jacjacatk
154 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2012 : 16:20:39
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quote:
Originally posted by seminole tony
The best play.
I can't speak to majors-level ball, but otherwise, this isn't remotely true.
quote:
Originally posted by seminole tony
If you commit to a team but your child is only a sub-par player and the team goes to a tournament knowing this and opts to pick up help, thats a team problem. Not the child stepping up and sometimes over the lesser child.
If the team isn't upfront about planning to bench/replace non-producing players, it's definitely a team problem. And I wouldn't suggest anyone commit to a team (at the youth level anyway) where the team was planning to cut/bench people mid-season in order to replace them.
quote:
Originally posted by seminole tony
This is where and why travel ball has become WATERED DOWN.
You know why they have 50 rounds in the MLB draft? So the stars have someone to play with. IME people who think travel ball is watered down don't appreciate the need for "lesser" players to get a chance to play and that those same players ultimately provide the competition that they're playing against over the years. I'd be happy to see rec ball around here get more organized and replace lower level travel ball as the development ground for the "watered down" parts of travel ball, but if it's not going to happen there it has to happen somewhere. |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2012 : 18:03:59
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| The best do play on the good teams....I hear people getting boys ready for high school on this site ALL the time but our local HS played 14 kids all season....They carry at least 10 others that never played a play of varsity ball(lot of JV experience)..But in HS the best play and the 2nd tier kids get the clean up time...Very rarely do you see the best players sitting during crucial times on major teams. I agree 1000% with you Tony....Kids can't play out of classification so IMO it isn't a huge deal, it isn't like there are super stars showing up to the AA tourneys and just dominating everybody. If a 10-14yr old kid beats another 10-14yr old team then so be it, there are only a few examples of people "flying people in" but it does happen...For the most part it is a good player who wants to play on a weekend his regular team has taken off. In the past we have had coaches want to take a weekend off so they could go to the lake house, we played baseball. One team that beat us last year flew a kid to Disney only to pitch one or two games...He killed us but our boys saw the kind of competition we play travel ball to see...That experience will make our players better than shelling their #5 pitcher IMO. |
Edited by - Spartan4 on 01/30/2012 18:54:28 |
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seminole tony
147 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2012 : 20:03:59
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Thank you Spartan4,
I'm just responding with my take on the kids on multiple teams. I have a son who is of average to just above average skill. He "breathes" baseball. I can honestly say that i can sit with him during a pro game down to a little league game and he will give a true evaluation of every aspect(pitching, hitting, fielding and coaching) as good as any coach we have ever had. And I couldn't be prouder.
We have played on several teams but are not of the team hopper philosophy. We have been picked up by teams that are short handed on occasion(higher age and in my sons age)to play weekends.
Don't lump kids that love the sport and want to play it all the time as "bad team members or slot takers".
Why can't this be a learning experience for all involved?
My son makes new friends, learns from those coaches and players and maybe teaches some of the other kids lessons he's learned. This is a no lose situation.
And for those who don't know, I will SHUT MY SON DOWN in a heart beat at the first sign of any pain, discomfort or when he just doesn't want to play any more.
This is a kids game.
I will only let him play as long as "HE" loves the game.
It's the adults that ruin it.
Has anyone thought to why some kids travel from team to team. I'm talking about Major teams that request the child to join them for tournaments?
Exposure and to challenge themselves against the best. Why do so many kids look for the best facilities and best coaches? To get better. We don't appreciate the hard work some of these kids put in. Yes we take them to practice, lessons and tournaments. But they do the hard part. They're the ones with bumps, bruises and sore muscles(not to say my arm hasn't been sore from pitching batting practice  ).They're the ones that have to make the plays. They're the ones that get scolled for booting a simple ground ball or striking out.
Listening to us always telling them to do this and do that can be tough on some kids. Some kids absorb it all and others don't. Don't punish the hard workers.
There are those that do abuse the system and that is up to the ruling bodies to control. Not us taking it upon ourselves to do it. You see a violation, report it.
Don't just bad mouth the kids doing what they love. |
Edited by - seminole tony on 01/30/2012 20:35:34 |
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ccistrunk
5 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2012 : 16:20:11
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I am new to travel ball is it expensive
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excoach12
159 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2012 : 17:36:21
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Trunk,
I read that and started to laugh thinking you were kidding. But then I thought maybe you were serious.
If you were joking-very funny.
If you were serious- Yup. Of course others are going to say you can find pricing all the way from $0 to $5,000+, which is true. Expect around $1,300 to $1,500 per year just for team expenses for an average year of ball. Your travel and food is in addition. |
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Question for Coaches
