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sirlurker
187 Posts |
 Posted - 12/26/2011 : 23:26:48
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| I see where Travel Ball Select is promoting a new National Championship comprised of the top ranked teams by its website. Ages 9U - 14U with televised games and a double elimination format over four days. It this is done properly, USSSA may have real competition for their Elite 32 World Series....Comments?? |
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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2011 : 09:53:25
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| This concept is long overdue and if done properly very well might not only compete but actually replace the Elite 32 as the true national champion. We ask what the difference is other than who is managing the national championship tournament? The biggest difference that I see that the present system offers many national champions for each organization they represent and the Travel Ball Select champion would offer one and only one champion for Travel Baseball as a whole. Many of us have promoted the double elimination format so this appears to be a great idea. The key is in the rankings and TBS must not allow themselves to be influenced by anyone. You should not be invited or ranked on past performances and if the TBS tournament wants to be successful the teams being invited should have earned that invitation by their play between the lines and not because they are personal friends with the Director of the tournament. Case in point is teams with losing records being invited to the Elite 32 because they are from the home state of a national USSSA director. I am not saying that the best teams did not participate in the Elite 32 but I am saying that once you pass 16 teams in each division you are beginning to water down the tournament. |
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ivpartner
80 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2011 : 12:19:11
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| If Travel Ball Select wants to put together a national champion tournaments then they need to LOSE the subscription fee for access to their information. I doubt seriously parents and coaches would support paying the annual fee for the privilege of looking up the rankings or anything else. Travel baseball has enough costs associated with it as it is. |
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sirlurker
187 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2011 : 17:25:14
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| Look, I'm not affiliated with Travel Ball Select in anyway. But every time their organization is mentioned people come on complaining about their subscription costs. Travel Ball Select feels like they have info on their web site worth paying for. Costs for running their site and getting reports on games is not cheap. Advertising usually comes no where close to paying for the costs. Even NWBA is now asking for support on their page. It is simple - if you don't want to see the info then don't pay. Unfortunately I have seen sites before that had good information that disappeared from lack of funds. Our family pays more for a meal at the park than we do to access this site. Sure we all like something for nothing but sometimes you have to pay. |
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Calif_Baseball
292 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2011 : 10:55:05
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I believe this Tournament may be real sucessful. They are going to move the site around year to year. Which as you know has a lot of people in Calif. excited. Every year we must come up with 10's of Thousands of dollars to compete against the best teams. Most of the National Tourneys are in the Southeast and never get all the Best from the West out there. The burden is always on us West Coast teams to travel 3000 miles to play. I went to the Elites this year. It was to bad the Best 12U teams from Calif did not go. In fact I think the top 3 or 4 teams in 12U did not go back east. The SD Stars were the only ones to even adventure out there and qualify for NYBC. But they were not the Best team out West. The So Cal Rebels were the top dog.
The Elites and AAU championships are starting to look a lot like a Regional Championship as most of the Teams are from the Southeast. |
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SSBuckeye
575 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2011 : 11:01:56
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| Sirlurker, you are right. Don't want to pay, then don't join. But I won't pay, and 95% of the people who would otherwise go to that site won't either, so I hope they are happy with limited subscribership. They'll never be a true voice of travel baseball with that model, in my view. |
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Dr. Old School
314 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2011 : 11:03:07
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Well said, sirlurker.
We, as a society, have forgotten that it costs to do anything. Some websites, like NWBA, survive on getting sponsors to cover the expenses. We are lucky that Stan has been able to survive with that model. Not all sites can because sponsorship money has gotten harder and harder to come by. Travelball Select does pay for some of their costs through sponsorship, but some content has to get paid for by subscription. Perfect Game is the same way. For those that are in the young age groups, you will experience that in the future.
We want to play on teams free. We want to play in tournaments for free. We want the use of fields for practice for free. We want umpires to call games for free. We want people to scout games and take notes for free. We want people to write articles with team rankings for free.
Not a single one of them is without expenses.
And, by the way, I don't have any affiliation with Traveball Select, PG, or anyone else. |
Edited by - Dr. Old School on 12/28/2011 11:47:17 |
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Dr. Old School
314 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2011 : 12:00:18
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SSBuckeye,
I disagree. Look at Perfect Game. They use the same model and most will argue they are the most central voice for the older age groups.
Now, the great thing about a free market system is that if they don't get sufficient support, they will have to go to a different model. I respect your decision to not get a subscription. I used to have one when they were free, but I dropped it when they went to the pay model. While I would like to see the info, to me, it was not worth the cost of the subscription. If they begin to replace USSSA for the Elite most tournament of the year, then the value of the subscription may increase. If so, more people will join. Let the free market drive it.
They have to find a way to pay for their expenses some way. |
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ivpartner
80 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2011 : 14:33:35
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Not saying that we as parents want something for free. We pay for everything related to our teams and player costs. My son is in 12U this year going to Cooperstown. It will cost me roughly $7-8,000 dollars when you factor in all costs. That isn't counting my 10U sons travel costs which is another $2500 easy. That isn't the point.
Yes Perfect Game charges but they provides a statistical database and captures that data at tournaments on over 100,000 amateur players. Major League and College teams happily pay for that data and it translates into revenue for them and their teams. Parents seeking scolarships also pay to determine their sons opportunity to make those programs.
To pay a subscription fee for simple rankings for any and all players who travel is just unrealistic IMO! We already have at least 5-6 baseball organizations (USSSA, AAU, CABA, TC etc) who sponsor teams and year end national tournaments. They aren't perfect but we are talking about 8 to 14 year olds here. None of them are going to get scholarships at that age and most of them will not play college. Many of them want play on their high school teams either. |
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SSBuckeye
575 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2011 : 14:56:32
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| I agree they need to find a way to monetize their operation. All I'm saying is if they don't have the readership, they won't ever become the voice. They simply don't have compelling enough and unique content that can't be gotten elsewhere. That's the reality in the online world. Until they offer something people can't get anywhere else, they won't likely get many people to pay. And, a kick-butt season-ending tournament is not going to drive people to pay for a website. |
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ramman999
241 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2011 : 15:31:43
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I think in concept it is great, but reality is there are TON of great ball clubs not subscribed to TBS, therefore not gathering national attention... What guarantee is there that TBS gives consideration to an organization that doesn't subscribe?? There have been occasions where teams have been promoted in a top 25 scenario that had no business even being considered top 200, let alone top 25....
Regarding cost - if you are providing content, you should be paid for it... If the content is worth paying for, people will pay for it - simple supply and demand...
Anything that is put in place to gather the top teams in each age group is light years better than what we have now, but better starting off regionally first, and building towards a national type championship - maybe a mid west, south east, north east, west with 4 qualifiers from each region on to a national tournament.. If a team can survive 2 double elimination tournaments like that, they deserve to be called a national champion..
I also LOVE the double elimination format, but like Papa said, you limit it to a competitive group, and do not offer at large "filler" bids to teams that are not at least top 25 honorable mention teams...
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Edited by - ramman999 on 12/28/2011 16:06:37 |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2011 : 21:40:45
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| TBS very rarely gets it right....I used to subscribe but I don't anymore...They just don't have the staff needed to have half a clue. Some of the teams they continue to put in the top 10 or top 20 is ridiculous. Last season a AAA team beat a top major team by 1 run and the very next week they were in the top 20....They take a look at a few tourneys and that's it. It would be hard for them to do more than that without the money to send writers all over the place watching 10U-14U baseball games. The only thing I like more about TBS is the lack of big brother/moderation/censorship deleting comments anytime somebody argues..Hard to have a message board without different and passionate opinions....But we don't pay so we can't really complain!! |
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funnyhop
74 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2011 : 09:44:40
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The irony here is that TBS does not have enough funds to properly analyze who and how teams should be ranked. The TBS rankings mean nothing. They are so off the mark some times that you wonder what tournaments they have been watching. Nevertheless, they provide a service for the 10 - 14U levels that allows the parents and coaches to proudly proclaim they are the "best in the country".
The tournament idea is fantastic. Just hope they can include the "real" best teams in the country when it comes down to choosing the tournament attendees...........tough challenge. |
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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2011 : 10:54:16
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| I think we all are smart enough to realize that due to the size of our nation and the large number of different organizations represented that crowning a true national champion in any age group will always be almost impossible. But I also believe that the one's of us who actually play all over the Nation know who the best teams in the nation are and until some organization utilizes the travel ball community and in community I mean the people that see these kids the most week in and week out that there will never be a consensus as to who the best team in each age group is. What I have heard you all say is the USSSA rankings are flawed, Triple Crown is flawed, Nations is flawed, and now TBS is flawed. What is stopping someone from stepping out of the box and taking a ranking system into consideration that would include all of the above. We all know who the 20 best teams are and although we will never agree as to the order I have no doubt that the one's of that watch every weekend would be close to the same 20. Let's get some idea's going on what might work instead of complaining about what's not working. I will be glad to pass our suggestions along to TBS, USSSA, Triple Crown or Nations or any other organization that will listen. |
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Calif_Baseball
292 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2011 : 11:36:24
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I have talked to them about the tournament and there will be a concensus on who is invited. We all know who those teams are, The big Org. East Cobb,Banditos,SD STars,Lamorinda,Oakley etc.. Most of them have top teams. Most know who are the better teams in each region. Results don't lie. So in my opinion I think they will do a good job picking teams. Like with everything you will not make everybody happy. This tournament will have a great field. If most of the TOP teams in the nation support this tournament the other ORG. will feel the heat and possibly change their way of thinking. I believe that any National Championship Tournament should move locations. If you leave it in one location it becomes stale. The other issue is you will never get ALL the top teams from Out west.
Our team went to the Elites last year. Calif has probably 4 or 5 teams better than most of the teams that were at the Elites. In 9U Calif teams went 26-1-1 vs non Calif Teams. My point is this, Why not move the Elites every 2 or 3 years out West? to give us a break from the Tens of Thousands we must pay every year. That's why most of the Top Teams in Calif are real excited about what TBS is doing. It will be on a rotation system with the East,Central and West.
We will see if it takes hold.
Talking about money. Last year my 10 year old traveled with his team and it cost me over $10,000. We went to Cooperstown,Elites,Spring Nationals(AZ),Fall Nationals(las vegas). It has become too expensive for most teams to travel back east. That is why you see a Decline in teams from out West going back east.
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Edited by - Calif_Baseball on 12/29/2011 12:23:09 |
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12uCoach
357 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2011 : 13:26:03
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One of the things I love about this board is that because of the nature of travel baseball there is no collective memory. And some of us have lost their memory. The idea of "ranking" teams to determine the best of the best has been tried before; sadly, I lost track of the the organization 9 years ago.
Anyway, if you paid to have your team listed, you got to vote. If you were a tournament director, you got a vote for each tournament you hosted. If you coached and spent most weekends at tournaments that brought in more than one team from outside the state, you could get a 2nd vote. Every game score was entered by the teams that paid, a good database of teams was recorded. The top 25 was pretty accurate. But, like all things travel, the owners kids moved on, they sold it and it went away.
As to the East Coast bias of Championships; We got to go to Omaha, NE, Kernesville, NC, Aurelia, IA, Hopkinsville, KY and Tarkio, MO in my early days of travel ball, and then parents wanted to travel to a spot where they could vacation.
But, my point is this: Who cares who is the real #1 at 10, 11 or 12? Let Mr. Einhorn's NYBC sort it out and watch the players remember the experience, not the results. |
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DBL PLAY
34 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2011 : 20:06:03
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| I wonder if College recruiters ask a player if their team was ranked #1 or if they won a National Title at 10,11,12,13 or 14? I bet you could ask most 17yr old College prospects where their team was ranked at 12 and they would say who cares other than my Grandpaw! |
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Mike Corbin
523 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2011 : 20:39:17
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It was called USA Sports Rankings. They did a pretty good job. They sold it few years ago and it wasnt long before the site was gone.
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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2011 : 21:13:58
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| I get so tired of hearing that it doesn't matter to the college recruiter where you finished when you were 10, 11, or 12 years old. I don't know of anyone that is playing at that age that expects to be recruited to college. I will guarantee you that every one of these recruiters know what kind of baseball background and preparation a 18 year old kid has experienced. I have just witnessed several players that I watched playing travel ball at 12 years sign D1 scholarships with major schools. I don't know if them being in front of the best coaching available at 10, 11, and 12 had anything to do with it but I certainly don't feel it hurt them either. I might be old fashioned but I think that if they play because they love and respect the game and get the proper instruction and work hard that many opportunities will open up for them and all we as Parents and Grandparents can do is to support and encourage them in their goals and dreams. |
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ramman999
241 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2011 : 09:04:47
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quote:
Originally posted by DBL PLAY
I wonder if College recruiters ask a player if their team was ranked #1 or if they won a National Title at 10,11,12,13 or 14? I bet you could ask most 17yr old College prospects where their team was ranked at 12 and they would say who cares other than my Grandpaw!
They might not ask the kid, because good college recruiters already keep tabs on the big programs... If you don't think a college recruiter (or college coaches) know which organizations attract the top talent, or compete at the top levels, you're sadly mistaken.. I'm not saying that's the only way to get into a college program, but it's a great way to get them on the radar... |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2011 : 09:52:10
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quote:
Originally posted by ramman999
quote:
Originally posted by DBL PLAY
I wonder if College recruiters ask a player if their team was ranked #1 or if they won a National Title at 10,11,12,13 or 14? I bet you could ask most 17yr old College prospects where their team was ranked at 12 and they would say who cares other than my Grandpaw!
They might not ask the kid, because good college recruiters already keep tabs on the big programs... If you don't think a college recruiter (or college coaches) know which organizations attract the top talent, or compete at the top levels, you're sadly mistaken.. I'm not saying that's the only way to get into a college program, but it's a great way to get them on the radar...
Yep, at 16, 17 & 18 they know. Below that, they really don't care. Plenty of kids out there that never, ever played for a national championship at those ages that are now playing college ball. In fact for almost all of those kids in college now, there was no such thing when they were that age. Get a good coach who teaches the fundamentals and gives the kids playing time and you will be fine. Is it more fun to win? Of course. Is it cool to win big tournaments? Sure. Does that in and of itself make a difference in the long run? Not at all. Nobody will care later on. |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2011 : 10:12:53
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Let me just add this. College recruiters don't even care who wins at the HS level. They are looking for players and skills, not teams that win. Yes, they know that the teams that win a lot have more better players and will go to watch those teams. But, if your team is playing that team and loses, they don't care. If they see you play and like what they see, they will recruit you whether you win or lose.
In fact, in early season showcase "tournaments", many, many teams do not play to win. The coaches just don't care because they know the recruiters don't care. They are there to showcase the skills of their players and that is all.
In travel ball, I think at the early ages it is about development and skills acquisition. At the HS level, it is about showing those skills. That's it. In actual HS ball, it is all about winning since there is very little, if any recruiting going on. In college it is purely about winning.
Like I've said before, have fun, learn how to play the game and get good grades. The rest will take care of itself. |
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baseballpapa
1520 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2012 : 09:26:00
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bballman hit the nail right on the head with his comments. Recruiters are not looking at teams they are looking for "players" and could care less if the team the "players" are playing with wins or loses.
My grandson's have been very blessed to have played on teams that win more than they lose but make no mistake that the goal is development and we have also been blessed with what I think has been the right Coach at the right time and I have always been pleased with the way their Coach's has developed their skills.
I am not a college recruiter and have never read the "Baseball Scouting Book for Dummies" but I believe if there is such a book that it would say where they play at 10, 11, and 12 is important. I know several teams this age that do not win as much as the parents would like but they stay because they know they are being coached and developed the right way.
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DBL PLAY
34 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2012 : 15:44:39
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baseballpapa you need to reread my post if you agree so much with bballman, here I'll post it again "
I wonder if College recruiters ask a player if their TEAM was ranked #1 or if they won a National Title at 10,11,12,13 or 14? I bet you could ask most 17yr old College prospects where their TEAM was ranked at 12 and they would say who cares other than my Grandpaw!"
Now if you agree with bballman how can you not agree with me? I said "ask a player if their TEAM was ranked #1" which would mean that a coach doesn't care what the TEAM did but rather the accomplishments of the player! There you go being one of the Grandpaws of the 17yr old college prospects I mentioned.
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Edited by - DBL PLAY on 01/01/2012 16:08:47 |
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bballman
1432 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2012 : 16:34:28
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To be direct about this topic, it only matters where you play at 10, 11, 12 in terms of the coaching, development and the skills acquisition you get. It doesn't matter if you get that on a nationally ranked team, a local travel team that loses more than they win, or a local rec league team with a good coach (and there are some of them still out there). So, I guess bottom line is, it doesn't really matter where you play, but the coaching that you get.
I could be wrong, but I think that's what papa was getting at. At some point, it's a matter of semantics. |
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coachdan06
433 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2012 : 00:50:44
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quote:
Originally posted by bballman
quote:
Originally posted by ramman999
quote:
Originally posted by DBL PLAY
I wonder if College recruiters ask a player if their team was ranked #1 or if they won a National Title at 10,11,12,13 or 14? I bet you could ask most 17yr old College prospects where their team was ranked at 12 and they would say who cares other than my Grandpaw!
They might not ask the kid, because good college recruiters already keep tabs on the big programs... If you don't think a college recruiter (or college coaches) know which organizations attract the top talent, or compete at the top levels, you're sadly mistaken.. I'm not saying that's the only way to get into a college program, but it's a great way to get them on the radar...
Yep, at 16, 17 & 18 they know. Below that, they really don't care. Plenty of kids out there that never, ever played for a national championship at those ages that are now playing college ball. In fact for almost all of those kids in college now, there was no such thing when they were that age. Get a good coach who teaches the fundamentals and gives the kids playing time and you will be fine. Is it more fun to win? Of course. Is it cool to win big tournaments? Sure. Does that in and of itself make a difference in the long run? Not at all. Nobody will care later on.
Mr BaseballMan Im gonna step in here and agree .
Long timer friend is a scout for western US mlb team he's been around the grand game many years .
Weve had this discussion coupla times coupla different ways and for real they dont care what team you have played on now or later thats any age !
They do care about what kind of references you get for charecter and playing level and working ethic , and they wanna know what kind of instruction youve been receiving , and are you coach-able or do you know everything yourself .
They really dont care how many champ teams you played on or what fields you played at cause thats petty much bragging rights for the kids and familys .
Best to all in 2012 !
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Travel Ball Select National Champion
