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Linedrive11
91 Posts |
 Posted - 12/13/2011 : 11:09:06
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| I would like to get a debate going regarding what is the best way to handle managing lineups and playing time for Major/AAA level teams in the young ages (9U-11U). Should you roster bat, bat 9 or bat 10? Should you play everyone evenly on Saturday, then go with your best gloves on Sunday, etc? Assume every team has 11 or 12 players. |
Edited by - Linedrive11 on 12/13/2011 11:16:59 |
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Shut Out
512 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2011 : 12:45:28
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Comes down to the overall philosophy of how you plan to run your team. What are the biggest goals: team/player improvement or wins/loses. Only way a player improves is by playing. If that is the case at the ages you mention batting the whole roster/open substitution would be in order. When doing so most coaches try to keep the kids in the game by not having any player sit more than 1 inning in a row. Give you the option to make changes on the fly when situations call for having who want in the game in the critical innings as well as getting them all there reps.
While making some of the decisions of who bats where and who plays the most innings can be tough on you. Just remember you are dealing with very comptitive kids who understand pecking order and most likely have a pretty honest idea of where they fit. Challenge them to get better, every one will make errors but if you can control the mental errors the physical errors won't seem so bad. |
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wareagle
324 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2011 : 13:15:41
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I think that by 11U(Major & AAA), you should be playing your best kids on Sunday. It should be the reward for Hard work, talent, hustle, etc at practice and games. It should always be treated as a reward and never a punishment at these ages. Use it a a motivational tool to get 100% from all of your kids. Try to let the other kids play as the situation permits it.
With that said, there is usually not much difference from player 9 to player 10. As with anything else, this should be discussed upfront and not after players have become financially or emotionally vested in the team. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 12/13/2011 : 13:24:04
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Whatever you do, you should have chosen your philosophy and communicated it to parents BEFORE selecting/making offers.
If you haven't done this beforehand, you are guaranteed to have some displeasure. Those whose goal is to win will be disappointed if you don't balance playing time and given opportunities to develop at the expense of wins. Those wanting development will be disappointed if their kid doesn't play and get much game time because you're trying to win.
So given that, once you choose your team goals, you need to stick with them. If your mission statement is to win, use pool play against weaker teams and scrimmages to get playing time for development, but go with the "A" team in important pool and all bracket games. If the mission is to develop, then bat them all 99% of the time and shuffle everyone on the mound and at multiple fielding positions.
Either way, coach to win with whatever you put on the field.
quote:
Originally posted by Linedrive11
I would like to get a debate going regarding what is the best way to handle managing lineups and playing time for Major/AAA level teams in the young ages (9U-11U). Should you roster bat, bat 9 or bat 10? Should you play everyone evenly on Saturday, then go with your best gloves on Sunday, etc? Assume every team has 11 or 12 players.
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nastycurve
244 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2011 : 00:55:47
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At this age you have to look at the balance of your team. I coach a 14u team and we have 14 players, so we are batting 10 with four subs, the best 9 gloves are in the field, with one bat able to make the lineup and four guys come in and out as needed for the team.
When we were younger, I batted all 11 as in my mind as far as lineup turnover goes, theres no real difference between 9, 10 or 11. If you have 9 really good kids and two that are suspect, then bat 10 and sub the two sub par kids in for each other. You can get the game in hand using your nine that are really good and work the sub par kids in as you go. Or you can bat all 11, keep a pitcher and a catcher on the bench which gives you the most flexibility defensively and makes it easiest for everyone to play. |
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Mad1
252 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2011 : 10:14:12
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| We are a 10 and under team that runs a continuous Batting order and carry 11 players. All pool play days you will see us pretty much place the players in multiple positions working everyone in their back up positions when we can. During bracket days everyone still plays and we still run a continous batting order, but you will see the subs limited more to their regular positions and see our starting pitchers more. We are not a win at all cost team, and may lose games in the name of development, but it works for us and our parents, and we end the seasons with winning records. In The younger age groups , I Think you let em all play. You might be surprised how different your line-up looks at the end of the season, by the playing time given to all. |
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Steel-Will
278 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2011 : 10:30:51
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Pretty good approaches to managing players and developing their skills with a view towards winning games / tourneys.
Going into my 4th year of travelball, I feel a little cheated as none have seemed to manage my son's teams, either overtly or covertly with such forethought. It's been more by the seat of the pants often resulting in parental exclamations of; "why is that kid playing there? He never practices of played there in a game before".
Or, "why is one of the slowest players on the team in centerfield". Or, why does our right fielder have the weakest arm on the team".
I applaud you guys for thinking through your lineups, rotations, and defensive setups. I only wish I could have experience more of that thus far. |
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DecaturDad
619 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2011 : 11:07:19
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Steel-Will, I have been lucky enough to have my son on a well coached team since we moved to travel. The philosophy has always been clear. And it has adjusted over the years as the kids improved.
However, there are will always be parents asking "Why is Johny playing there?" It takes a lot of thought and some good luck to have the right players in the right place in any given inning. I would ask any parent to try and create a line up for a tournament. Who pitches when? Who plays where? Do you use your best catcher early or save him for key games? Take out a peice of paper and try it sometime. Don't share it with the coach, just do it for your own curiosity. It is a lot harder then you think.
-From a dad who is VERY glad he does not have to figure this out each weekend. |
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excoach12
159 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2011 : 15:36:23
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I made the mortal sin of moving a perennial 3-5 spot hitter to the bottom of the order because he was struggling and others had improved enough to pass him. I also set up my batting order based on the type of hitter needed in each slot, not based on a descending batting average order.
Boy did I catch flack for moving one player to benefit the team as a whole. I used the practices, not the games, as the place to improve that hitter and motivate him back to former glory. He has since moved up to the middle of the pack where he will stay because that is where he does the best overall and the best for the team.
I found out many years ago that to be an effective coach you have to give the parents their time to speak to you and you must actually listen. But you never, never coach by parental committee and make decisions to please the one or two parents who complain the loudest. Every kid plays every game on offense and defense and in their primary and secondary positions during a tournament but you make a line up and defensive scheme that maximizes your chances of winnning those bracket games. I have never heard a family say "It's fine that we entered 15 tournaments and never made it past the 2nd bracket game, let alone win anything, because my kid got to play where we/he wanted to and he hit where we/he wanted him too." But I certainly have heard "we stink. We never win any of these tournaments. We entered 15 of them and didn't win a thing. We need better coaches." |
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neverquit
128 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2011 : 20:52:57
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[quote]Originally posted by DecaturDad
However, there are will always be parents asking "Why is Johny playing there?" From a dad who is VERY glad he does not have to figure this out each weekend.
Im now watching my sons kids 12u. For decades its been "Why Johny or worst Johny's parents" that cause or manufacture dissension in the ranks. Hey it just not baseball happens in the military.
Do the lineup as what is best for the team in bracket and use pool to pacify the parents of Johny. Good luck |
Edited by - neverquit on 12/14/2011 22:05:48 |
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Steel-Will
278 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2011 : 11:36:42
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quote:
Originally posted by DecaturDad
Steel-Will, I have been lucky enough to have my son on a well coached team since we moved to travel. The philosophy has always been clear. And it has adjusted over the years as the kids improved.
However, there are will always be parents asking "Why is Johny playing there?" It takes a lot of thought and some good luck to have the right players in the right place in any given inning. I would ask any parent to try and create a line up for a tournament. Who pitches when? Who plays where? Do you use your best catcher early or save him for key games? Take out a peice of paper and try it sometime. Don't share it with the coach, just do it for your own curiosity. It is a lot harder then you think.
-From a dad who is VERY glad he does not have to figure this out each weekend.
DecDad
I know that you are right that there will always be parents asking "why is Johnny playing there" but the concern is will there always be coaches putting their least fleet of foot player in CF? Inevitably, the kid gets 10 feet from a popup and lets it drop, coaches get upset, frustrated, and loud at the kid because he didn't catch the ball. Or, when you enter a game against a team that's going to get 1, 2, or 3 outs at first off would-be singles to RF and the best you can hope for is no balls be hit to RF. The prospect of getting an out is out of the question effectively giving the opponent 1 more offensive inning to score than you have.
All this is UNNECESSARY by deploying personnel reasonably.
In other words, I'd like to see more coaching by the book, rather than exotic tactics like loading the bases intentionally with no outs in the top of the 1st inning so we'll have a force play at the plate (exaggeration), let's just pitch to contact and make plays at 1st.
I don't think it's unreasonable to pitch to contact and neither do I think its unreasonable to have a relatively fast CF and a good-accurate arm in RF and not on the bench late in a game.
I'm sure, if that were to happen, you'd have fewer parents wondering aloud "why Johnny is playing in a position he never played and rarely practices". |
Edited by - Steel-Will on 12/15/2011 12:58:25 |
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Card6
152 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2011 : 15:57:57
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| I agree with Steel. However, Jhonny usually has promise. Its just not worth having that type of parent on the team. Coaches do talk and teams will weed them out b4 they become a lineup problem. |
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prestont
197 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2011 : 17:23:12
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Hi All - Agree with alot of the discussion here with Steel & DecDad, but do want to chime in from a parents perspective that folks gotta be realistic about the skills/abilities of their son or ballplayer.
My son is 12U this year and we've been extremely fortunate over the last two years with my son playing for a great baseball guy. He's learned a TON but he has earned his opportunities on the field based on his hard work and putting in the time to improve. We appreciate the opportunities and confidence the coaches have in our son, but our son also understands (like most things in life) you earn your way.
Thanks my nickel's worth of input to the discussion! Happy Holidays all! |
Edited by - prestont on 12/15/2011 17:26:45 |
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Card6
152 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2011 : 18:53:13
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| Need more parents like prestont. Merry Christmas to all! |
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billbclk
164 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2011 : 20:41:52
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What kind of time do you want to be (win at all cost or develop players)? I don't care which but in my opinion you choose one and adjust your playing time philosophy to fit your team identity.
I always had the B-team at our park (Collins Hill) so my philosophy was to try to develop players. From 11U to 13U everybody played the same amount of time and no one sat two innings in a row. I used 12 players (because I was trying to develop boys). At 14U, mainly because of pitching, I switched to everybody playing at least four innings and pitchers could sit more than two because they were warming up.
It worked for me not so much in wins (I only had a winning team at 14U) but I can say that vast majority of my former players are still playing HS ball today as juniors.
In my opinion the problem comes when a coach does not communicate what type of team he wants to be up and parents/players are caught off guard with losing because everybody is getting equal time or they find themselves in a bat 9/10 situation and are not playing enough.
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ramman999
241 Posts |
Posted - 12/24/2011 : 12:22:27
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quote:
Originally posted by billbclk
What kind of time do you want to be (win at all cost or develop players)? I don't care which but in my opinion you choose one and adjust your playing time philosophy to fit your team identity.
In my opinion the problem comes when a coach does not communicate what type of team he wants to be up and parents/players are caught off guard with losing because everybody is getting equal time or they find themselves in a bat 9/10 situation and are not playing enough.
Maybe I am of the minority, but I feel you can be a development team AND win... There is nothing wrong with being both. Development means you work on all aspects of the game - come sunday, you let the kids do what they work on every day in practice and in games... Throwing your 9th rated pitcher against a top rated team might be much, but there are plenty of innings during the season to work him in and get him time on the mound... It comes down to balance, but it doesn't have to be equal, does it? |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 12/25/2011 : 01:26:56
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| I agree with you 100% Ramman....I've used a few examples in the past of teams who GET BETTER EVERY YEAR and still win far more games than they lose...To each his own but I can't help but see teams that aren't successful who talk negatively about the teams that try to win. It is a family/player decision, and many kids really thrive in pressure situations competing for wins every weekend. There are coaches who really just don't care at all about wins, but I don't see how playing just to play and not paying attention to the score could be fun for the boys? |
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billbclk
164 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2011 : 17:04:29
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Ram/Spartan, the intent of the post was not that you can't have or be both but more of a communication to the parents and players as to what they should expect. I always cared about wins/loses but I also cared that the players were learning and getting better. Ask my former players and they will tell you that we were NOT playing just to play.
In the end (after two years of high school ball) I realized that while it was certainly worth the time to play and experience 11U - 14U Travel Ball, it was the over zealous nature of winning at all cost that was VERY overrated. |
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ramman999
241 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2011 : 11:23:58
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I agree communication is paramount - if the parents don't buy into what you're building, they will create issues... The kids can care less, which makes it all the more sad...
To me, it starts at the tryouts, and at the first parent meeting, and is referenced at every opportunity through the season - development means check your ego at the door - the kids will learn multiple positions, the kids will be challenged, but in the end, the coaching staff has the final decision.. When parents can be objective (which can be a stretch), they can realize that there can't be 9 shortstops in the field at the same time...
Communicating the coaching philosophy is critical - we addressed it early and often, and each weekend...
We carried 12 this fall, which was much for an 11u roster, but it was fall. Ever kid sat, and against better judgement we batted 12 this fall, because it was fall... When you scroll down the lineup, everyone got within 7 AB of each other, batting order would get flipped in pool games, etc. Some kids sat more than others, and some pitched more than others, but every kid threw at least 4 innings, and every kid spent some time in the infield and outfield.. If there were rumblings, they were very limited and under the radar.. And every kid improved in at least one area since the start of the fall season... Thats all you can hope for. |
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SSBuckeye
575 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2011 : 13:22:55
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| ramman999 speaks the truth. Great post. Love what you're doing! |
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maryland
96 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2012 : 10:52:47
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| Totally agree with ramman999. It is about development and the more experience they get playing different positions in practice and pool games the more they understand how to play the game. |
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ramman999
241 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2012 : 20:29:45
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quote:
Originally posted by SSBuckeye
ramman999 speaks the truth. Great post. Love what you're doing!
Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on which way you look at it) with the move to GA, I'll be out of the mix there - hope the group keeps the same mindset, which I think they will.. |
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offspeed4
169 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2012 : 15:31:30
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| I say play with 10 and bat them all in pool play (most of time in bracket play)until they are 11 years old. Play with 11 at 11u/12u and then at 13u increase the roster size to 12 or 13. If your team is AAA or Major, then only take players that help your team. |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2012 : 08:26:12
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quote:
Originally posted by offspeed4
I say play with 10 and bat them all in pool play (most of time in bracket play)until they are 11 years old. Play with 11 at 11u/12u and then at 13u increase the roster size to 12 or 13. If your team is AAA or Major, then only take players that help your team.
I totally agree with this, but the big risk is injuries, especially to pitchers. About mid-season of our 12YO year I had to pick up a couple of players mid-season because we had to shut down a couple of our pitchers so they would be available for Cooperstown. In hindsight I probably should have gone with 13 at 12.
It's not like I didn't get complaints from about 1/2 the team about playing time anyway. Including the parents of the player with the most AB's and the parents of the pitcher with the second most Innings Pitched.  |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2012 : 09:13:09
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quote:
Originally posted by AllStar
It's not like I didn't get complaints from about 1/2 the team about playing time anyway. Including the parents of the player with the most AB's and the parents of the pitcher with the second most Innings Pitched.
Some folks in for a RUDE awakening in high school. |
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peashooter
297 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2012 : 11:32:42
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Here is the problem. Coaches are not honest with the kids or the parents. I flat out told my kids...You will ALL get a chance at the positions you love. If you don't perform, then you move to the bottom of the list. As those above you fail to perform, you move up the list, until you get another chance. I then drill home...GUESS WHAT you may only get one chance to pitch, so you better make it count, if you go out there and pitch afraid it may be another month before you get another chance.
I didn't move guys down because of making mistakes that were physical, it was due to mental mistakes (throwing afraid, lobbing, not knowing what base to go to, not charging the ball and moving through it, swinging at balls over their heads, etc..)
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Philosophy for managing lineups and playing time
