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rippit
667 Posts |
 Posted - 06/08/2011 : 18:31:58
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I've read SO much about moving up to bigger fields, hitting for average, big boys who run slow vs little boys who run fast, and now BBCOR bats. I think the men are about to be separated from the boys and it's about time.
Here it comes: your kid reaches 14U, you are now playing on 60/90, you HAVE to swing a big boy bat (-5 or -3) AND it has to be BBCOR approved.
I'm gonna bet on my BIG, not so slow, player, who not only has been hitting for average, but also power, and who has been driving the baseball into the gaps because he can, over the little, fast, hits for average on a 225 field with a -10 bat and it gets taken away player who finds himself having to run 10-20 feet farther...and has been training with a wood bat in the cages for almost 12 months straight...
Well you get the picture.
The kid has NEVER hit a home run in a game on a 300' field because he learned to hit line drives instead and never used a juiced bat. You get on base more that way.
On another note: those folks on that thread talking about bat shaving, rolling etc.: I would feel just AWFUL if I was a parent allowing my kid to use an illegal bat that knocked some kid out or WORSE. Accept the rules and learn to play by them. It's just a game. Don't ruin it for the rest of us. |
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momshell
103 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2011 : 20:04:26
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| Mine have been doing what yours is doing! I'm hoping it helps them with the transition for next year. |
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beanball
222 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2011 : 21:31:49
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ripit;
I’ll play devil’s advocate on this one;
What happens when your big, not so slow 14U player is now 16 and all those other small, really fast kids have grown up and they are just as big & strong, and faster than your 16U player who has not grown an inch in two years? I’m not saying it’s going to happen to yours but I’ve seen it happen a lot. The hard work really pays off. False confidence at 14U is a death trap.
“Trees don’t grow to the sky”
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justletemplay
46 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2011 : 21:58:11
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I hear ya. My straight A honors kid is big, strong, not too slow, plays up to HS ball, as a 7th grader. He has always used a wood bat and when he does use a metal bat it's never been a big barrel. He plays for him and not for us. He runs everyday, hits almost everyday because he has passion. He's had a few "frozen rope" HR's a grand slam or 2. He hits for power and average, to all fields. His OBP is high, quality at bats, and great bat control. The barrel stays level thru the strike zone. He's quiet at the plate. He's got 4 of the 5 tools and the best tool......baseball IQ. The fast kids will get slower. The exceptionally fast player will be there, but no team has 25 fast guys. You only need so many lead off hitters and small middle infielders. If you can't hit, you sit and that is all there is to it.
Let's see who gets the D1 scholarships in a few years. Keep your eye on the prize. I love the BBCOR bats, the equalizer and/or eliminator. |
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rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2011 : 22:13:42
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quote:
Originally posted by beanball
ripit;
I’ll play devil’s advocate on this one;
What happens when your big, not so slow 14U player is now 16 and all those other small, really fast kids have grown up and they are just as big & strong, and faster than your 16U player who has not grown an inch in two years? I’m not saying it’s going to happen to yours but I’ve seen it happen a lot. The hard work really pays off. False confidence at 14U is a death trap.
“Trees don’t grow to the sky”
Who says he won't stop working hard and why the heck do you think he will stop growing at 14?? No one has false confidence at 14. However, I do see a lot of false hope at 12. Just sayin.... |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2011 : 23:03:36
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quote:
Originally posted by rippit
quote:
Originally posted by beanball
ripit;
I’ll play devil’s advocate on this one;
What happens when your big, not so slow 14U player is now 16 and all those other small, really fast kids have grown up and they are just as big & strong, and faster than your 16U player who has not grown an inch in two years? I’m not saying it’s going to happen to yours but I’ve seen it happen a lot. The hard work really pays off. False confidence at 14U is a death trap.
“Trees don’t grow to the sky”
Who says he won't stop working hard and why the heck do you think he will stop growing at 14?? No one has false confidence at 14. However, I do see a lot of false hope at 12. Just sayin....
About 10 years ago when I was 14-15 many of the superstars from Atlanta went to the next level...And from what I remember many of those kids were the best at 11-12 as well....I'm not saying every stud on an 11U team will be great at the HS or college level, but that doesn't mean they won't be. Kyle Davies was absolutely the best 10U pitcher I remember at that age, and at 12 and 13 and then 14 and so on. And he wasn't the only 11U stud that ended up playing after HS. |
Edited by - Spartan4 on 06/09/2011 07:47:30 |
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biged
198 Posts |
Posted - 06/08/2011 : 23:31:32
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| baseball is a marathon. Nobody really has a clue as to what a kid at 14u will develop into. The one exception is speed. As Jorge Dominquez says in his utube videos, "I can not teach you dis, it is God given". |
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DecaturDad
619 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 07:52:24
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Rippit,
I would love for our sons to meet. My son just turned 12. He has been using a drop 5 all season. He has put a few out, but has also learned to hit mostly line drives. He can reach home plate on a throw from center field without a hop. And as far as stop growing at 14. I hope he does. He is 5' 11", 200 pounds and just turned 12 :-)
And, I do see a future for both the smaller fast kids and the bigger boys. I love seeing the agressive baserunner stealing. And I don't really have an issue with the drop 10s (or maybe drop 8) for the smaller kids at 11 and 12. If it gives them the opportunity to continue to develop a good swing instead of swing something that is just too heavy, what is wrong with that?
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rustybucket
67 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 08:39:56
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Based on what you've said it sounds like you should start integrating some speed and agility training into his daily routine. All kids like to work/practice on what they are good at (hitting..etc), but what they really need to be practicing/working on are their weaknesses. 'Running' won't make you faster, if it's just jogging it could possibly make you slower. IMO, the only players that should be jogging the fields are pitchers and catchers as they are really the only players on the field that need endurance, the rest need speed/agility/power in short bursts.
I'd suggest working in some uphill/downhill sprints, plyometrics and some isometrics with resistance bands (on his legs) to start helping with his speed.
Speed in baseball is KEY, even the fat guys at the higher level are amazingly fast, not so much in running the bases, but think a bout this... Other than base running what really counts in baseball... When was the last time you ever saw a fielder run more than about 20 yards to get to a ball? I'd say if you took an average most players run less than 10 yards to make a play. It's not long distance endurance or even long distance speed, it's that quick explosive speed that you need for position play in baseball.
Your low hanging fruit for speed/agility in baseball is really the first 5-10 steps, the most important being the first move. Focus on those and tweak the rest later. If you focus a workout on this you can really see some nice gains VERY quickly, like within 2-3 weeks if the programs right.
You could put together a 15min speed/agility workout to integrate into his daily routine, so it's not like this takes all day. We have a standard speed/agility workout that I work into almost every single practice. Be sure to keep it fresh!!
Anyways, best of luck to you guys!! |
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gasbag
281 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 08:47:18
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Well rounded ball players have the highest value over a longer period of time on the ballfield. As the boys mature, their strengths will mandate the role they need to fulfill on any given team. If you look at the "bigs" and analyze position by position, you'll see different physical skills at different positions. Just because they made it to the big show does not mean they have all 5 tools.
I'd venture to say that your son's skills will change over time as he matures. One year he may be really fast for his age or really powerful for his age etc. In my mind, the biggest skill not mentioned, is the work ethic he brings to the game. That's what I call the foundation ! Without that foundation, even God given skills will not get better year after year unless you work at it. |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 08:57:20
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quote:
Originally posted by biged
baseball is a marathon. Nobody really has a clue as to what a kid at 14u will develop into. The one exception is speed. As Jorge Dominquez says in his utube videos, "I can not teach you dis, it is God given".
Agreed. If you are expecting some great weeding out process at 14, or even 15, it's not happening as far as I can see.
"Men" are separated from the boys every year, in every age group. Some of the boys stop playing, others don't. For that matter, some of the "Men" stop playing as well.
Sometimes this year's "Man" is next year's "Boy" because he didn't work as hard, grow as much, whatever...
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Edited by - AllStar on 06/09/2011 09:56:33 |
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bmoser
1633 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 09:02:34
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"Speed doesn't have an off day" and "of the 5 tools, only 1 is used on offense and defense...speed!"
Now if you cant hit, it doesn't matter how fast you are.
quote:
Originally posted by biged
baseball is a marathon. Nobody really has a clue as to what a kid at 14u will develop into. The one exception is speed. As Jorge Dominquez says in his utube videos, "I can not teach you dis, it is God given".
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beanball
222 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 09:08:57
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quote:
Originally posted by rippit
quote:
Originally posted by beanball
ripit;
I’ll play devil’s advocate on this one;
What happens when your big, not so slow 14U player is now 16 and all those other small, really fast kids have grown up and they are just as big & strong, and faster than your 16U player who has not grown an inch in two years? I’m not saying it’s going to happen to yours but I’ve seen it happen a lot. The hard work really pays off. False confidence at 14U is a death trap.
“Trees don’t grow to the sky”
Who says he won't stop working hard and why the heck do you think he will stop growing at 14?? No one has false confidence at 14. However, I do see a lot of false hope at 12. Just sayin....
Speaking from experience, I have seen many big 6'1"- 6'2", fast 13U & 14U players that at 16U are still 6'1". Maybe faster or stronger but the other players who were not that size @ 13U or 14U are now the same size or bigger & faster and hitting just as well.
For example my now 16U player is 6'2" and 170 lbs with more growing to do according to his doctor. At 13 he was 5'4 and 95 lbs. At 14 he was 5'8" and 125 lbs. At that time I couldn' imagine he would be hitting balls 400'+ -- he is doing just that now.
We have played with and against some players, all good players then & now, that are about the same size they were @ 13 or 14. At 13 or 14 it is impossible to project any player development even 2-3 years out. Without even considering the growth issue there are many other factors, girls, grades, to name a few that factor in. |
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justletemplay
46 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 10:51:14
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| Speed may not have an off day........but what good is speed if you can't get on the base? Fast or slow, you have to be able to get on base. |
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in_the_know
985 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 12:11:24
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quote:
Originally posted by bmoser
"Speed doesn't have an off day" and "of the 5 tools, only 1 is used on offense and defense...speed!"
Now if you cant hit, it doesn't matter how fast you are.
quote:
Originally posted by biged
baseball is a marathon. Nobody really has a clue as to what a kid at 14u will develop into. The one exception is speed. As Jorge Dominquez says in his utube videos, "I can not teach you dis, it is God given".
Willie Mays Hayes!
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rustybucket
67 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 12:36:27
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Too much emphasis is given to youth player size anyways...
The average MLB player is 6'1. If you remove the pitchers from this average I would expect the average to drop below 6'.
Baseball is one sport where being BIG isn't really a big advantage.
Given that, being tall and being a pitcher or first baseman is definitely an advantage, but for the other positions height is really not critical, they want speed and power.
btw....,
Hank Aaron was 6' and 180lbs.
Mickey Mantle was 5' 11" and 195lbs
Oh, those were the old days, things have changed you say....?
Barry Bonds: 6' 1" 185lbs
Sammy Sosa: 6' 185lbs
Some of the best players to ever play the game were under 6'. Were there some bigger players that were good? Of course, McGuire clocked in at 6' 5".
According to this chart, a 5' 10" guy has almost an equal chance to make it to the majors as a 6' 3" guy. A 5'11" guy has the same chances as a 6' 1" or 6' 2" player. The 6' tall guy has it made as he has the largest chance..... and 6'0 in the US is just a couple inches above the 5' 10" average.
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/charts/heights/heights.shtml
So, long story short, in baseball, especially at higher levels, height has VERY little to do with player success.
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Edited by - rustybucket on 06/09/2011 13:26:07 |
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justletemplay
46 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 14:39:13
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| Those height/weight concerns are of no importance, til the package is near it's completion. Some decisions are not ours to navigate thru. It's the guy writing the check, offering the scholarships, or a position for that matter. What ever skill set a team is looking for........you either will fit their bill or not....or another teams bill or not. Lots of kids walk on @ college b/c all the $ has been dished out and they become a preferred player........when/if the $ comes along. Atheletes are in many sized packages from Lemke, Kelly Johnson, Randy Johnson, Heyward, Fielder, etc. Somebody saw something that was appealing to that program. I know for a fact they are assessing the complete player profle.....grades, work ethic, strengths, weaknesses, leader, follower, glove, arm, footspeed, acuracy, power, average. What do you think they have the 20-80 scale? Why Sabermetrics? Why stats? Why scouting report cards. The attempt to remove subjectivity and emphasize objectivity. You still have to be able to hit. If a player isn't hitting they move down the line up, to the bench, back to lower level ball, rehab, etc. |
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rustybucket
67 Posts |
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TAZ980002
831 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 15:41:47
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| There isn't much point in speculating what kid is going to be what size or what speed. They all grow at different times. Just enjoy their baseball days as long as they last. |
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seminole tony
147 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 16:01:15
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You can teach hitting, defense and baseball knowledge. You can't teach speed. My sons high school baseball coach says he can teach kids to hit but that speed gets them home. How many teams now in travel ball have kids that are over sized and a bit slower that the only place you can play them is pitching or first base?? May be a beast at the plate but is really hard to hide in the field. Kids will mature into a little faster ability/mobility but I'll take the singles w/speed over doubles/triples and stuck on base. At this age (13u-14u) the leaner, quicker players tend to outlive the bigger slower kids (hustle and speed make up for mistakes a lot of the time). This is just a generalization and there is always exceptions to this.
Those 300' bombs now will turn into 250' pop out in high school(especially w/BBCOR). It's the speed getting down the line and from base to base that impress more coaches now. Being able to move to second on a hit and run, being able to break up that double play at second, scoring on a deep sacrifice fly from third. That's speed. Not size.
The thing that nullifies this the most is a child's good work ethic and heart. This will make them succeed in anything they do. NO MATTER THE SIZE! IMHO.
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TBBFAN
16 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 16:45:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Spartan4
Kyle Davies was absolutely the best 10U pitcher I remember at that age, and at 12 and 13 and then 14 and so on. And he wasn't the only 11U stud that ended up playing after HS.
Funny you should mention that, because I’ve always said he was the best 10u pitcher I’ve ever seen (and I’ve seen a bunch of them). It was unreal how good he was at that age. |
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Scatbat
39 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 19:53:21
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| Dustin Pedroia = 5'8"...... Its Heart!!! That is the biggest measuring stick |
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Spartan4
913 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 20:42:40
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quote:
Originally posted by TBBFAN
quote:
Originally posted by Spartan4
Kyle Davies was absolutely the best 10U pitcher I remember at that age, and at 12 and 13 and then 14 and so on. And he wasn't the only 11U stud that ended up playing after HS.
Funny you should mention that, because I’ve always said he was the best 10u pitcher I’ve ever seen (and I’ve seen a bunch of them). It was unreal how good he was at that age.
He is also another reason why I don't jump on the "all curveballs are evil" bandwagon. That man threw exactly 318 million hooks between 10-13 and he has never been the victim of a serious arm injury that I am aware of. He might have had one in the last few years but I haven't been following. Point I was trying to make was a majority of these guys you see on TV were probably pretty good at 11-12. I know there is the diamond in the rough that never picks up a bat until he was 17 I just don't believe that is the norm. |
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PASSBALL
28 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 22:30:28
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| Is speed really that important? Have you ever seen a speedy leadoff guy steal first base? If your pitcher is good he gets alot of ground outs and fly balls. Sometime speed is over rated. speed can only be a factor if it gets on base! how big do you have to be if your pitcher is doing his job. So think about it is pitching or speed more important. Give me a good pitcher and a ok outfield rather than a speedy outfield a bad pitcher any day. |
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AllStar
762 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2011 : 23:59:52
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quote:
Originally posted by PASSBALL
Is speed really that important? Have you ever seen a speedy leadoff guy steal first base? If your pitcher is good he gets alot of ground outs and fly balls. Sometime speed is over rated. speed can only be a factor if it gets on base! how big do you have to be if your pitcher is doing his job. So think about it is pitching or speed more important. Give me a good pitcher and a ok outfield rather than a speedy outfield a bad pitcher any day.
OK. Ask Jurrjens if he'd rather have McClouth/Schafer in CF or Hinske. |
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rippit
667 Posts |
Posted - 06/10/2011 : 07:56:02
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quote:
Originally posted by AllStar
quote:
Originally posted by PASSBALL
Is speed really that important? Have you ever seen a speedy leadoff guy steal first base? If your pitcher is good he gets alot of ground outs and fly balls. Sometime speed is over rated. speed can only be a factor if it gets on base! how big do you have to be if your pitcher is doing his job. So think about it is pitching or speed more important. Give me a good pitcher and a ok outfield rather than a speedy outfield a bad pitcher any day.
OK. Ask Jurrjens if he'd rather have McClouth/Schafer in CF or Hinske.
Guys: The questions was posed NOT to have a slow vs fast debate. The question is "how are all these changes at once" going to affect the kid who has been using a smaller juiced bat on a smaller field who suddenly finds himself going from 12U to 14U because he was playing down his whole life and now only has 1 year before high school tryouts so he figures he'd better start playing with his grade...??
There has been so much asked about the effects of the bigger field on a player and his adjustment, playing up, playing down, bat size and BBCOR that I was just lumping it all together. Maybe I should have just saved the question for the 13U board. I thought MAYBE you might want to plan ahead though.
My opinion is that if a kid suddenly finds himself having to run 20 feet further, using a -5 minimum, BBCOR no less and was relying on bloop singles or slap hits through the infield because he was "fast", he may get a little frustrated come August 1st.
Oh, and ROE because some kid is fast and beats out a bobble doesn't help your batting average (unless Daddy is the book keeper)but along those same lines, a hard drive to right field where a slowpoke gets thrown out at first is just downright embarrassing.
There - equal time given to both sides of that debate.
You better learn how to drive the gaps... |
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Truth time!
